Eric thanks for your response,.
So I can still hear the tweeters but I it seems like certain frequencys it sounds laid back and I can almost not even hear it. Is this consistent with what your talking about. I must admit it's a bit over my head, what your saying. I did replace tow of three of the mid-range caps, as well as three of the five tweeter caps.
Would you place the mid caps back in to see if it improves? |
Admittedly, I am the dude who knows just enough to get himself in trouble. So forgive the stupid questions.... So I haven't pulled apart the other speaker's crossover yet, is there a way I can measure the resistance on the other crossover to see where it's supposed to be, so I can figure out what resistor to add in series of these new caps. Also I'm having a hard time figuring out what new caps are going towards ground and not in series with the driver. Would anyone mind looking to see if you can determine this from the pic https://postimg.org/image/er6t30pon/ |
I'm at that point where I spent a good amount of time and money, and I'm left with a sick feeling of oh crap I don't like this...
Please, if you can take a stab at this , I'd be forever grateful.... |
So this morning I was fortunate to speak with a guy from a Mirage distributor who was quite familar with the M1. He said that the ESR should not be an issue. He told me to check all the solder joints. So I did and I realized that the joint feeding the "hi" section of the cross over looked suspect I re soldered it and tried the crossover, and low and behold the upper highs have returned to at least be in acceptable parameters, and comparable to the other crossover. Despite the tweeters sounding more normal, the sound overall still sounds a smeary, or, maybe choppy, I dont know how to explain it, its not quite smooth yet. So will the smoothness come with time? Tim did you find this with yours? Another thing is I am wondering if I should increase the resistance due to the lower esr caps replacing the old Electrolytics. I dont want to get to far off from the traditional M1 Sound, but I am up to increase the detail and smoothness, which is why I replaced the old caps in the first place. Enclosed is a schematic, if it may help. https://ibb.co/hrQ6oF What are your thoughts, leave it or add an additional .5 - 1 ohm resistor. Or if I should just burn it in and if the sound is good, leave it as it is..,,... |
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So here's a new development.......
The rolled of tweeter sound has returned...
It only happens when I use the Tara labs temporal continuum speaker cables. I can't believe I didn't catch that before..
I really love these speaker cables, there very good, but using them with this new set up, the highs sound terrible.
With using just plain old zip cord I get better highs than the temporal continuums.
Anyone have any idea why?
Next thing is what cables to replace these with, I don't want zip cord for my main speaker cables, I want something as good as the Tara's but without the weird tweeter issue.
Also , Tim not to beat a dead horse, but my bottom end is a little booty almost muddy, would this also improve with break in or is it a result of the supra cables, do you think?
Thanks for all your input, I can tell the sound is already smoother than before and more lively. Excited to hear it after a few weeks of playing it.
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I'm a hififan, I tried the dials on all settings, with no change.
The caps I replaced were:
the electrolytic, (2- 6.8uF , 2- 8uF, a 47uf and a 10uF)
Also film caps, 3- 3.3uF, 2 -10uF and a 4.7uF.
Two polarized electrolytic 2200uF, but these I replaced with electrolytics.
How can I tell what the resistance should be, that device that Tim posted , will that tell me the correct resistance? If I measure the other crossover that I haven't changed any electrolytic caps out of yet.
If I find out the correct resistance can I change the resistors to the correct values.
I want to keep the jantzen caps but I don't want to alter the intended resistance, can I accomplish this by swapping resistors with an higher resistance? |
Eric, hififan, Tim, what are your thoughts on the above post. I want to correct this issue so I can retain my Tara labs cables,,, if that's possible |
Also, tried changing the position of the speakers in relation to the wall, it made no difference on the top end, at least when using the Tara's. It's so rolled off sounding it really sounds like the pre/pro has some strange surround field that's changing the sound , but that's not the case. |
So with this device, do you read the cap it self, or do I measure the circuit.
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So forgive the stupid questions, I am trying to wrap my head around all this.
So Tim with the meter you listed, do you just measure the resistance between the cap leads? Is the resistance the same as the ESR. |
So, c3 and c4 are the two 6.8uF; and the two 8uF. Would you do the 57uF in c1 also or just the c3-4 |
I've got about a few days of music played thru these, and the smoothness is increasing all the time but the weird tweeter thing remains. |
I think just for kicks I'll try the other Tara cable, I would think it would be less likely to have both cables have an issue. |
Tim I appreciate your input, not quite sure which way to go aside from keeping music on the speaker. |
Imhififan, I only replaced three of the 3.3, and left one existing one in place.
I tried the other tara cable and the issue was unchanged. I didnt think it was the cables, because although they were old they were in mint shape and I bought them from an old dealer who had them in storage, they were in flawless shape.
I tried Erics theory and replaced the Jantzens in C1, C3, C4 with the old electrolytics. And as Eric suggested the issue had went away.
So here I am at a crossroads as I have been emailing both Tim and Eric relating to my problem.
Eric suggests getting an ESR Meter find the difference between the old caps and the new caps and correct it by changing the resistor (in series with cap) with the corrected value on the resistor.
On the other hand,,,,
Tim says this is not an ESR issue, he says that the ESR difference is not significant enough cause this issue, and that there must be another reason for the issue, he suggested that perhaps one of the Jantzen caps is defective or mislabeled, or perhaps a solder joint wasnt making a good connection.
Im pretty sure I've reiterated what I've been told by these guys, if not, I apologize for getting it wrong.
I appreciate the spirited debate and strong opinions, I especially appreciate the civility between everyone who has chimed in.
So thats where Im at, the worst part is Im moving in two weeks and I was hoping to wrap this up before I moved.
I think what Ill do is buy a tester that can check the value of the caps as well as check the ESR and see what pops out at me.
Anyone have any better Ideas,,,, dont be shy.
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The negative stripes face each other on the 2200uF's, I'm thinking that's in line with what your saying |
Thanks hififan for that link.
Hey Tim, so I double checked the stripe on the polarized caps against a photo I had. And it matched up correctly. I replaced it with a 35v cuz that's what was in it before. I'm fairly certain it's the tweeter that's faint. I suppose the mid-range could also be faint. If your interested go to the following link (YouTube) fast forward to 117 and listen to guitar little solo where he picks the strings.
It plays until 126 and then repeats.
I can hardly hear that solo, it's crazy I can hear that on any system I've had, but with this new set up it's nearly non existent. So to answer your question, I think it's the tweeter, as it sounds really faint but I suppose it could be the mid as well and I just didn't realize. |
Here's that song, go to one 117 and listen to him pick that guitar |
What's clear is the problem resolves when the caps in c1, c3, c4 are swapped with the old electrolytics.
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Well I figured I wouldn't have gotten all right, but I took a stab at it.
I don't think the tweeter is bad, cuz it sounds fine with the old caps or If the Tara cables aren't used. I know it's not a mid-range issue cuz I can clearly hear the tweeter as faint when the jantzen and Tara cables are used. Now if a cap was over heated I guess that could have occurred, but what I don't understand is which cap would have been ruined. As you pointed out, the electrolytic caps I replaced don't effect the tweeter, cuz there in the mid-range / bass circuit, yet when I replaced those caps the problem resolved it self.
So the cap that would have been bad due to over heating, would have been one of the mid-range/bass driver caps I swapped with an electrolytic, but I thought those couldn't effect the tweeter. And the tweeter caps weren't changed out, but the problem resolved when the bass mid caps were swapped.
Quite the quandary. |
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So the caps the caps I replaced in c1,c3,c4, were bi polar electrolytics, they say bipolar on the cap. Not sure if that matters or if I mentioned it. |
I don't think leaving the old electrolytic caps in place is the solution. First, the jantzens ( when Tara cables not used), sounds far superior than the old caps being used with the Tara cables. So if I was going to throw my hands up , I would keep the jantzens and hunt for cables that didn't give me issue's. I tried those belden 5000 cables and didn't have issues and it sounded pretty good.
Also this hasn't been driving me crazy, I've learned a lot and have enjoyed the project.
I'm going to buy that meter test those caps, make sure there all good, and try and buy resistors that compensate for any disparity.
And if that does nothing, and I'm ready to give up, then I'll try different cables till I get the sound like I know it's supposed to be.
That's the plan, but for now I've gotta move, so I'll be on a little break for a week or two |
I was talking with a guy in Cali today Fritz from from Fritz speaker, and it came up, to just put a variable resistor in there and tweek it until it sounds right. I don't know I've got half a mind to just ditch the Tara's and find a cable that works with it. |
Eric, I thought you said that a in series resistor that compensate for the low esr of the film caps would correct the problem. Did I misunderstand? |
I was considering getting both, but I'm not sure if I should measure each cap or the circuit on the board when it comes to est |
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Fritz was a really nice guy, smart guy. |
Eric, could you explain in a little more detail how you would make the jig and where you can get that room eq. Is the room eq in place of the meter measuring esr. |
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