Dear @pani : """
It is a pity that so many of them are out there to screw up the sound of the original music. Then there are reviewers who give them 10/10, to make things even more miserable.
Only a handful of the manufacturers today really know how to preserve the signal while improving fidelity. In that respect good old vintage stuff was much more consistent. """
I agree with @lewm on his post about modern/today electronics ( and I can tell cartridges too. ).
I don't know from where came your " screw up the original music ". For me that makes no sense because today designs not only are better designs but as lewm mentioned way better passive and active parts and this means THAT ALMOST ALL THESE MODERN DESIGNS ARE TRUER TO THE RECORDING WITH A LOT LESS " COLORATIONS "/DISTORTIONS. Why do you think " srew up the original MUSIC?
No one can make recordings of original music preserving exactly the same, it's no way my friend.
" Vintage stuff was much more consistent? " I don't know for sure what you are talking about,sorry.
R. |
Ortofon Winfield, and Benz LPS are better than the black at about that price.
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@lewm we are not discussing the same thing I guess. I am not a vintage lover or anything. I have actually used modern stuff mostly in my system. The Garrard 301 is the only classic item I have.
What I meant was, with all the limitations in the past they were able to make products that sounded like music. Many of them. Today the same McIntosh has nothing special to offer so they reissued the MC275 and still could not better it with all the great parts they have today. And 275 was not their best sounding amp anyway. Same with Marantz and Quad and others. The point is we have great parts today but the sum of the parts is not as great in many cases. Probably because it is all about voicing something to show in Munich and sell. After a couple of years its gone. Unlike the timeless classics we just discussed. A single guy makes a "me too" product dressed in a fancier chassis and sells for $$$, thats how we see most high ends today. In such a world the Shindos and Kondos are rare geniuses who know what they are doing.
The best example is as you rightly pointed out, Pass Labs. On one hand we have firstwatt which sounds pure, clear and lively like real music and then we have the Pass Labs amps which sounds boring and lazy with a sameness in tonality no matter what you throw at it. Totally 2 different sounds. Why ? Is it so difficult to hear which one sounds more like real music ? Naa...the idea is to sell a big monoblock which can put out 1000 watts. After all it is price per watt! I am not saying all big amps sound bad but this is a typical case where it is a clear step backwards even with all the great parts resulting in great SNR, accuracy, resolution etc etc.
On the contrary it is quite opposite in the AV, Television and automotive industry. May be music is too niche and narrow to accomodate too many great minds. |
I guess one can argue both pro and con on the comparison between "modern" and "vintage" gear, by one's selection of products to argue about. Surely I would not disagree that there is some very expensive modern junk out there. In vintage gear, the greatest values may be found in speakers, I think, such as the Quad 57 and KLH 9 ESLs, for two examples. Then there are the vintage direct drive turntables, which have come into vogue partly because there are so few modern direct drive turntables from which to choose, and the ones we do have are very expensive. It's selective. But I won't concede that the 1970s and 80s vintage Japanese amplifiers and phono stages have anything special to offer us in the here and now. They're cool and collectible, but that's about it.
I have heard older Pass solid state amplifiers, and they are fine. I have also heard First Watt amplifiers and like them as well, on efficient speakers. But I would not have thought that the latest Pass amplifiers were as flawed as you say. If so, that's too bad, because Mr Pass knows more about solid state circuits than most and can apparently do whatever he wants.
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Pass experimental platform is First Watt and those amp for many years have been handmade by him only in very small quantities (100 units each). Then he start making more units of each. But each amp is unique in its design, each one is different. As he said in the interview they are tested and voiced on Tannoy. I adore his design, because i'm using crossoverless Zu Druid speakers (Nelson also own Zu and like them). But he made several FW amps not only for high efficient speakers. Anyway First Watt is like laboratory for unique design from the genius. People collect different First Watt amps. After an audition of First Watt amps no one can say anything bad about Solid State versus Tubes. Actually i think First Watt is superior to tube amps, but my experience with tube amps is limited. The price for any First Watt (except maybe SIT monoblocks) is so affordable, it's a clean winner. Highly recommended.
In my opinion a highly valuable vintage gear is Cartridges, Reel to Reel machines, DD Turntables, Speakers, NOS tubes.
P.S. Nelson has mentioned some extremely rare transistors made by Sony back in the day. |
Yes, Pass knows everything and thats the point. Very few people know their stuff and even they have reasons to create junk. Anyway, these days I am struggling to find a fine sounding tube phonostage for $5-6k. Something uncolored and true to the source. SS sounds too grey at that level. |
Dear @lewm : I had a rare opportunity to listen the First Watt and XA NP designs in the same system with Magico speakers.
Differences are not nigth and day in favor the XA amplifiers but way notorious. First Watt is a " so so " amplifier and nothing more where the XA is in a different " world " at quality performance levels.
Personal preferences dictates each one audio items judgements.
Anywat NP electronic designs are very good and competitive. I remember the very old Threshold S 5000E and the SA-1 when in those times NP preference belongs to bipolar devices instead today MosFets or Jfets. I'm with bipolars as output devices but at the input too and I don't like transformers at the input as in the SIT FW amplifier. Well there is no perfect electronic designs, trade-offs always exist.
R. |
Dear @lewm I forgot about what you ask me in one of your posts about cartridges, megabucks cartridges.
First I really don't listen yet all the 8K+ cartridges out there, I think that like around 10 of them only and no I did not find out one of them that was not up to its " major league " quality performance levels.
As a fact in this " major league " cartridges all sounds more alike than different, its differences in between exist and our choice is only limited my our music/audio preferences but ceratinly not for cartridge limitations.
Of course that what can add some limitations could be our room/system overall resolution and quality whole performace level but even here those cartridge never losted its very high " pedigree ".
In the past I bougth almost every new " major league " design but when suddenly those kind of cartridges prices gone to almost the double I hd to stop buying it becuse I don't have that kind of money. Lucky I'm with friends that own those cartridges and that way I have the opportunity to listen these elusive megabuck cartridges.
In the other side with cartridges in the 3K-6K price range the differences between the cartridges are significant and higher that with the differences in between the major league samples.
Btw, other than the speakers that you do not like at your friend place maybe the Durand tonearm could not be the best match, even that the Telos is a dual pivot bearing design is not totally stable and that's why Durand new tonearm design is a gimbaled one and the today top of the line ( VPI did it the same too before. ), maybe your friend can borros the Etna for your system.
Now that I remember one gentleman that I think you know is Dgarretson that I think gone from the ART ( I believe the 7. ) to the Etna, you can be in touch with him. What I knew is that was satisfied with.
lewm, with a major league cartridge sample no one can go wrong. Yes we have to have more care in the overall cartridge set up for it can shows at its best and maybe we have to have a music/sound good maturity levels.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
@rauliruegas Firstwatt amps are not a good match for Magico speakers. They are meant for high efficiency speakers. Even though the power rating of some the firstwatt amps and XA amps are same the actual current capabilities are very different. |
It may have seemed that I was touting the ART7 as the "best" cartridge. I was merely bringing it up as a very very good cartridge for relatively modest cost. I would hazard a guess that it is competitive with others that cost up to $5K, which was the upper limit for the OP, I think. Also, I am resistant to the notion that you always get what you pay for, and nothing more, in audio equipment. I think sometimes very expensive equipment can fall short of one's personal expectations. On the other hand, you can put a modest priced cartridge into a fine tonearm and be very pleasantly surprised. I also keep in my mind that I would be using the potentially $10,000-cartridge in many cases to play used LPs that I bought for $5 to $10 with an unknown prior history. (Yes, I only buy mint used LPs with zero visible blemishes, and I often buy new releases, but still... About a third of my LP collection is made up of records I bought new over the course of time since the mid-60s. The rest is either from the collection of my close friend, who bought all his LPs new, or used LPs that I bought in Tokyo or at various audio shows. I don't buy from eBay or from second hand stores.)
Raul, you cannot really say you've heard THE First Watt amplifier, since there are many different versions with different intended uses. In some cases, he is experimenting and puts out the product for others to critique. As NP says, it's his playground.
Also, I have no doubts that the Etna is good, should be superior to the ART7 based on cost alone.
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Dear @pani : I think the Magico stays around 90db-92db that's a friendly sensitivity, of course is not a horn design.
In the other side we were listening at around 85db-87db SPL.
I did not been aware of something that could told me a problem with the FW handling the Magico.
Lewm it had to be the " rigth " FW amp because the audio distributor target was to shows its very high quality performance on the FW, the FW just can't achieved that target at least no contest vs the XA. As I said part of the mediocrity/average and if you ask me I can't live with satisfaction audio level with FW but I can do it with the XA ones.
The XA "
should be superior to the FW based on cost alone..."
From NP I would like to listen his XS series.
R. |
Sure. The "Pass" amplifiers ought to be superior to the FW amplifiers, based on the vast differences in cost. You don't say what was the power rating of the FW. I wonder because I would bet that the sensitivity of the Magicos is over-rated, meaning I would bet they are less efficient than advertised. Moreover, I would bet they have impedance issues around the many crossover points which would affect a low power amp more than more powerful ones. Which FW amp was it; do you recall?
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Each First Watt amp is different, each amp has unique design, Nelson made 15 different models with absolutely unique topology for each of them ! They are entirely different from each other, they are not the same. 90-92db speakers are NOT high efficient at all, the high efficient speakers is 95db and higher. I’m using current source F2J with 101db speakers - this is a high efficient speaker (without crossover). And this amp, for example, designed ONLY for the full range speakers without crossover. Anyway, when anyone is here to criticize FW amps at least add the exact model of the amp you owned (and speakers), there are 15 completely different models of First Watt amps on the market today. If some of you tried one FW model and does not like it for some reason it means nothing, because the next model is entirely different from the previous model. This is why people collect different FW amps and willing to try them all to find what they really like with certain speakers. These amps can blow your bind with the right preamp and speakers and they are always reasonably priced, maybe the price tag is too low for posh people, but i am happy about the prices for First Watt on used market, amazing value! And these amps does not made to impress by the way it looks, only by the sound quality! Regarding the cost: First Watt SIT-1 mono blocks are very expensive compared to any other FW amps anyone can get for $1500-3000 used. But the majority of the classic FW models made ONLY in 100 quantities (assembled 100% by Nelson Pass himself), so they are very hard to find. While the stuff from PASS LABS brand is commercial product, many thousands made by the manufacturer. sorry for the off topic |
Dear @lewm : According reviews with measurements about the Magico differences in sensitivity are only of 0.5-0.8 dbs.
I can't recall model, I was not interested on it. Are you interested on FW?, you can make a call to NP he is really friendly.
Anyway, better if we come back to the OP thread.
R. |
have the art 9, think its great, but have tried to upstage it with more expensive MC carts, but have not done so.
pretty hard to beat it unless you step up the 1000, but even then, it does not blow away the art 9.
forget LOMC carts from some of the holly grail brands (no names) the art 9 is considerably better, better tracking, better detail, more musical, better imaging....
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Dear @johnss : """
forget LOMC carts from some of the holly grail brands... ""
why should any one do that with out testing/evaluated different cartridges?
You said " ( no names ) but this is the really important issue in your post so if you can share with us the information/first hand experiences you have, it's of true interest to every one.
R. |
I strongly doubt that "many thousands" of the very expensive higher power Pass amplifiers are sold, if you're speaking of a single model. If you take total production over the last years, maybe. Otherwise, I agree.
Johnss, No one I know has ever heard the ART1000. Have you?
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@audiofun uses an ART1000 |
Magico is a typical modern day speaker. It loves to be driven by quality high power solid state amps. I have heard some of the best installations of Magico and it always shone through with a nice and proper 500 watt amp. |
Dear @pani : Speaker efficiency/sensitivity of 91db like the Magico I listened means that you can get 91db SPL at 1 meter with 1watt and 91db is high volume for any one.
Speacker impedance curve is other parameter to take in count but as I posted I did not be aware of any problem where I can tell the amp was in " trouble " handling the Magico's.
R. |
Yes @rauliruegas I understand the sensitivity and impedance curve properties and their effect on the output. An amp not being is trouble is not enough. Typical modern multi-driver speakers like Magico, Rockport, Avalon, Focal all need a lot of current to come alive and show their full frequency response with uncompressed dynamics. Firstwatt amps will never push them that way because they do not deliver such high currents. The XA has large array of transistors at the output which allows large current swings. It is just a simple comparison between a small amp with a small power supply and a big muscle amp with a large power supply. |
Also, some of the oddball power transistors that NP in his FW business likes to play with are unusual compared to typical power transistors in that they act more like voltage gain devices than like current gain devices. Thus not so good at driving a typical 3- or 4-way crossover. (I hate multi-way passive crossovers in speakers. I think they are a major source of SQ degradation.)
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Dear @pani @lewm : I don't know why both of you are so incisive about the FW when I can see is not of interest for you and certainly not for me.
Btw, Magico recommend 20 watts amp ( and up ) for the model I listened.
You have your own reasons for your posts about but no one of you listened what I experienced with, so why insist to put the issue so controversial.
Whom cares?, not me.
Lewm 3-way speakers has several advantages and certainly as anything in audio has trade-offs that depends on the design quality.. I know very well your speakers and certainly are not perfect, so what are you talking about?
R. |
In my opinion people with all these huge power amps and 3-4 way speakers with active crossovers will never understand sound preferences of the opposite "school" of low power amps and super efficient full range drivers without crossovers. And vice versa! No matter which brand btw. This is one of the reason the cartridge preferences will be different for these different group of people with completely different preferences in sound. Nothing wrong about it. The system with just 2 watts Yamamoto A-8s handmade SET amp (or low power solid state First Watt amp) with high efficient speakers can be much better than all these huge low efficient speakers with many drivers and those huge superpower overpriced 500w monoblocks. Low power amps and high efficient speakers in a moderate or small well treated room is all we need, especially if the budget is not unlimited. Beside the main system with ZU Druid i was very impressed even by a very small vintage professional Tannoy studio monitors from the 80's which i bought last summer. So i can understand the sound preferences of the Tannoy fans. I can only imagine how their bigger speakers sounds like. @lewm
I strongly doubt that "many thousands" of the very expensive higher power Pass amplifiers are sold, if you're speaking of a single model. If you take total production over the last years, maybe. Otherwise, I agree.
You can watch interview with Nelson Pass on youtube, he explain the difference between Pass Lab and First Watt concept. Also here about very special impossible to find transistors he's using exclusively like Static Induction Transistors (SIT). You will see rare Sony VFET, Toshiba JFET etc in his collection. Even latest FW sells in many thousands units today via distributors. Not so long ago First Watt was available only direct from Nelson in California. The demand for his gear is much higher, almost cult status for the owners of high efficient speakers like my Zu Audio Druid and others, i use Pass Lab Aleph passive/active preamp and FW F2J power amp which is one of a few current source amp on the market in Nelson Pass opinion today. @johnss Have the art 9, think its great, but have tried to upstage it with more expensive MC carts, but have not done so. Pretty hard to beat it unless you step up the 1000, but even then, it does not blow away the art 9. Forget LOMC carts from some of the holly grail brands (no names) the art 9 is considerably better, better tracking, better detail, more musical, better imaging....
It must be a very nice cartridge like many Audio-Technica high-tech cartridges, but when it comes to a different and more organic flavor some other cartridge can be even better, no doubt. Ever heard the Miyajima (cross-ring) MC ? |
have not heard the Miyajima MC cart so do not know what it sounds like.
all I was trying to say was I was in overdrive, hard pressed on the search for the best LP playback nirvana, thinking I would find it the more I spent....just was not the case.....
and if you really want to throw a wrench into your LP playback/cart evaluations, don't do what I did and compare the LP to to high speed tape.
Doing so will change your perspective on many LOMC carts.
But if you want to walk down that path, put on the Acoustic sounds Reiner/CSO Pines on LP. then play the same tape available from Acoustic Sounds (you will need a high speed half track deck to play it). Holly cow, so many carts do not get it right.....and many add things not on the tape....
And don't forget the LP came from the tape, not the other way around.
If you can afford the ART1000, buy it, if not buy the ART 9, and you'll be 85% of the way there.
Can't tell you how many kilo bucks I flushed chasing LP nirvana.
happy listening.
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@johnss i wish i could find all my records on reel to reel, but it's simply impossible because most of them are rare, and my taste is not what a typical audiophile reissue label can offer, completely different i would say. Knowing the fact that a tape is always better it is absolutely irrelevant when it comes to a choice of music on tapes available today in comparison with tons of vintage vinyl available today. This is the reason i am with vinyl, not with tapes. P.S. For some reason industry professionals claimed the MM sound closer to the mastertape than MC, here is the article i posted million times. |
I did a poor job of explaining.... when you are considering spending 8k to 15k or more on a LOMC cart, buying a tape deck and one tape should not be much of an issue. and even if you only have that one tape, you now have a tool for a true A-B comparison against the LP and any cart you wish to try be it MC or MM.
And I would tend to agree with your comment that most MM carts sound closer to the tape than MC carts.
the other point worth making when evaluating an MM or MC cart is the need before hand to make sure the combined system (cart, and phono stage) is (measures flat) with a known input. YOu can use a NAB broadcast test disc for this or likely others as well.
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