Has anyone heard the new North American products preamp and amp?
The new versions are called X-10s and the amp is on its third version or Mark III. This truly provides holograph imagine unlike anything I've heard before. On symphonic orchestras, one can hear the first violins. I have never heard an amp sound this precise.
In reality, I doubt if any amplifier can rival it. I certainly have never heard any that do so. Every album is so involving.
The preamp has yet to get a remote but is nevertheless, quite striking.
Roger, I for one, have enjoyed you explanations very much. Thanks for trying with the folks who are just trying to disrupt real conversations so they can be saying something, anything in public. Despite the fact that there is only 10 people reading the thread. Flies at a picnic. Of course, hearing an amp is the only way to know how it sounds, and it is natural to ask questions. It is always best to listen to the answers instead of feigning incredulity. I am happy to be wildly enthusiastic about you decades of effort and your inventions and have read the white paper a number of times. I saw nothing hard to understand... but I was trying to understand rather than looking for something to argue about in a rude manner, for entertainment! ?? Your further explanations left no doubt about the points you were clarifying. I appreciate your work very much! I carry an equal amount of distain for Trolls who crop up on every Topic with nothing to Add. Good news is that even absurd questions netted interesting answers. Thank you Roger. I anxiously await your industry changing products to arrive at my home.
gdhal, Good information is evidenced by it working, this is the theory part of the scientific method. There is also good reason for a designer to not really tell what is true.
I have been able to greatly improve the sound of Roger's amp using the new Star Sound Tech. 2.5AP-1AINT audio points under it rather than their old 1.5AP-1 INT Audio Points over 300,000 of. Furthermore their new APCD4-Invert coupling cup also contributes more than their original coupling cup. So vibrations being drained seem to be important to sound also. One hears about mechanical coupling and the speed of these devises in getting vibrations to the floor and earth.
I knew about magnetic waves derived from a signal going through a wire, so I can see how vibrations can induce signal in one preamp, amp, and other components. But why does the speed of draining the internal vibrations help versus devices that turn vibrations into heat work?
I long ago gave up on total harmonic distortion as a measure of the quality of an amp, when it proved unrelated to what I heard. One can measure it but if it is unrelated to the quality of music reproduction, who cares?
Some of you should leave these pages and move to the halls of Congress. There you can take refuge and be at home with all the other closed looped idiots who do nothing butt maintain and promote, flat earth ignorance. Tom
"So vibrations being drained seem to be important to sound also."
nobody ever said they weren’t. You have to isolate and dissipate. You can also damp. I wrote about the importance of damping the top plate of isolation devices twenty years ago. Gee, how time flies. And that's also why my iso platforms came with integrated vibration dissipation for the top plate. Plus constrained layer damping of transformers and CD transport compartments not to mention capacitors is pretty much de riguer these days. In terms of distortion you never know what you got til you lose it. Or put another way, you get used to whatever level of distortion you’ve got. As I mentioned somewhere along the line on one of these threads there are many causes of distortion, some of which are those things that go bump in the night. You know what I'm talking about.
Tbg also wrote,
"I have been able to greatly improve the sound of Roger’s amp..."
“Advertising is to a genuine article what manure is to land, - it largely increases the product.”
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"Perpetual motion has been the dream of scientific visionaries, and a pretended but cheating realization of it has been exhibited by scamp after scamp. I understand that one is at this moment being invented over in Jersey City. I have purchased more than one “perpetual motion” myself."
After you took the time to learn the technique of direct mechanical coupling of transformers, caps, circuit boards and output devices you would then hear a huuuuge benefit versus the same components when damped or constrained. (Terribly depressing words they are).. I quit the damp thing twenty years ago. And for isolation it never can be achieved. If there were no matter/existence ..well then you have isolation.
Why would you want to constrain or damp the required tools to reproduce your music when you don't need to? Tom
"After you took the time to learn the technique of direct mechanical coupling of transformers, caps, circuit boards and output devices you would then hear a huuuuge benefit versus the same components when damped or constrained. (Terribly depressing words they are).. I quit the damp thing twenty years ago. And for isolation it never can be achieved. If there were no matter/existence ..well then you have isolation.
I suspect you might be using one of those Strawman argument things on me. I assume you haven’t found the right method of damping. Isolating the the circuit boards from the deleterious effects of ye olde buzz saw, the large transformer, is most assuredly something you should try some time. Nobody ever said isolation techniques are perfect. I mean, after all, the isolation device is (usually) a low pass filter so even the lowest resonant frequency you can muster still let’s very low frequencies in. As we saw a couple weeks ago the LIGO project finally observed gravity waves and they had to use isolation to do it. Isolation of the optics. So, you really probably should delete the expression, isolation can never be achieved, from your repertoire. But getting down to say 3 Hz is enough for audiophile porpoises. Occasionally you'll one get down below 1 Hz. Like mine. I use damping in iso designs because it’s needed to control resonances on the top plate. I also use mechanical coupling in my designs, both for the iso platform to the floor and for the component to the top plate. Obviously one would like the vibration to exit the system as rapidly as possible which is why I espouse extremely hard materials such as diamond hard ceramics and even diamonds. Now, I’m not saying you can’t use the WRONG damping materials or that you can’t over-damp if you’re not careful. Noone said it was easy.
Tom also wrote,
"Why would you want to constrain or damp the required tools to reproduce your music when you don’t need to?"
Tom, what I’m referring to is removing, dissipating, converting to heat that vibration that would otherwise remain in the system and wreak havoc on anything the natural frequency of which excited by the frequency of the vibration, cables, tonearm, cartridge, tonearm wires, CD laser, etc. and produce audible distortion. As I intimated previously chances are good that you just got used to a certain level of distortion twenty years ago and never looked back. ;-)
Yes, I too have given up on isolation after experiencing the Star Sound Technologies Audio Points and other devices.
I am also guilty of experiencing the TriPoint Troy Signature and the Thor SE grounding cables.
I also gave up on thing bits are bites, that total harmonic Distortion matters, that bass traps are worth a damn, that record cleaning does matter nor static is unimportant on non-ferrous material, that you are not affected by sounds over 20k Hz, etc.
Direct mechanical coupling ..no bed springs in between no rubber in between. Matching material speed and material shape is a part of maintaining signal continuity. Maintains Dynamica instead of reducing Dynamica. Tom
Direct mechanical coupling ..no bed springs in between no rubber in between. Matching material speed and material shape is a part of maintaining signal continuity. Maintains Dynamica instead of reducing Dynamica."
Sorry, my way is better. Way better. Apparently you never received the memo about isoaltion. Didn’t you hear the news about gravity waves? They couldn’t have detected them with isolation. By directly coupling only you create a pathway for the seismic and other structureborne vibration to come up into the electronics. And we know that can't be right! Duh! How long has it been since the Vibraplane was introduced to unsuspecting audiophiles? Twenty years? I guess not everyone got the memo. When you guys stovepipe your projects sometimes you miss all the good stuff. You have to do both - isolation and direct coupling. Better head back to the drawing board.
"The most startling aspect of the analog "jitter" is how bad it is compared to other destructive forces caused by the physical world. The unstable velocity in the amplifier happens at nano-scopic levels (far below measurable levels). But again - knowing it is there and making attempts to catch it happening based on [theory] is no different than you placing lead weights on boxes and draping your cables over insulators knowing that you are blindly affecting the issue."
pretty sure that entire paragraph is another one of those false arguments, you know....a Strawman argument. What is illogical about it? Well, for starters, we have the capability to measure things that are nano scale. Actually the way CD players work is based on the geometry calculation of how the quantum mechanical laser reads the nanoscale data on the disc. Now, just because the data is nano scale and the laser beam is nano scale doesn't mean that the laser reading operation is quantum mechanical. It's not. The only thing quantum mechanical about the entire process is the CD laser! like all lasers, you know being a quantum well. Obviously we have the capability to measure the nano scale data on the CD otherwise the Reed Solomon error detection correction wouldn't work. Another perhaps even more dramatic example of the the ability to measure nano scale phenomenon or waves or matter is the recent announcement that the LIGO project finally observed gravity waves. This announcement was actually made only a couple of weeks ago. Now, why is this relevant? Because the amplitude of the gravity waves that LIGO detected was on the order of the diameter of a neutron. That's what we call nano scale. So, with this measurement by LIGO we don't have to be theorizing or stumbling around wondering whether gravity waves exist or whether black holes exist or, by extension, whether the Big Bang is real.
"The most startling aspect of the analog "jitter" is how bad it is compared to other destructive forces caused by the physical world. The unstable velocity in the amplifier happens at nano-scopic levels (far below measurable levels). But again - knowing it is there and making attempts to catch it happening based on [theory] is no different than you placing lead weights on boxes and draping your cables over insulators knowing that you are blindly affecting the issue."
geoffkait wrote,
pretty sure that entire paragraph is another one of those false arguments, you know....a Strawman argument. What is illogical about it? Well, for starters, we have the capability to measure things that are nano scale.
Ok - so if we already have the capability to measure things that are nano scale and you are assuming it can be applied to sound reproduction - why haven't we done it already? Has the audio industry been wasting its time when all they had to do is use the magic tools we already have?
Because we are talking apples and oranges.
Reed Solomon does absolutely nothing in the analog world. It only deals with on/off. I was afraid to use the term "jitter" when describing my work but I thought it might trigger some kinship to the concept of tiny amounts of interference or disturbance. This is why I prefaced it with the term "analog". I realize it is probably an oxymoron since jitter is deviation or displacement of a pulse in a digital signal. It may only have added some confusion to the correction process I use which is 100% analog and also lives in the nano scale.
I am very fascinated by the discussion so far and is in agreement with the consensus that proof of the claim is in the listening. Is it fair to speculate that this technology could soon be available as a separate device to be placed before the speaker providing much of the same effect?
You are right the proof is in the pudding. As far as a separate device - as you know a chain is only as strong as its weakest link. I have had great success at the power amp end of the chain mostly because the power amp has a tricky task to perform correctly. That is driving the final transducer that converts the electrical language into mechanical language that ultimately allows the sonic continuum to make its way to your ear-brain system. However, every part of the chain should be of the same caliber.
The Wavefront Timing Control I developed on earlier models of the preamp was a way to manually decode or filter a fixed disturbance in the chain. It required making a separate adjustment every time you switched sources or even between different recording labels. The current auto-focus system is much more sophisticated in that it can detect the velocity that comes embedded within the audio signal. For this reason I use auto-focus in the preamp as well. The DAC and the phono stage also has auto-focus because it handles issues that pertain to the specific stage in question. It cannot guarantee fixing anything upstream. (A bad front end will still sound bad).
There are many recording studios waiting now for this process to be available as a mic preamp which is already under way. I hope to have recordings done this way later this year.
Oh Brother!! Off topic rants cause me to glaze over. Then I skip them and look for real information. Thank you Roger, and all who have shared pertinent info.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference" Poor Richard
"Oh Brother!! Off topic rants cause me to glaze over. Then I skip them and look for real information. Thank you Roger, and all who have shared pertinent info.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference" Poor Richard"
The only one I see ranting here is you. I suppose every organ grinder has to have a monkey.
"Ok - so if we already have the capability to measure things that are nano scale and you are assuming it can be applied to sound reproduction - why haven’t we done it already? Has the audio industry been wasting its time when all they had to do is use the magic tools we already have?"
obviously measurements have been made of atomic particles for what, a centrury? Of the diameter of a neutron, the mass of an electron, the wavelength of a photon and so forth. They even determined the mass of a photon. Uh, it’s zero. Like your amp’s distortion. So Measurement at the nano scale is nothing new. For audio, one can measure the sensitivity of extremely sensitive preamps, you know, the ones with noise figures 130 dB down. And THD 0.0001%. Those are mighty small numbers, no? The size of a pinpoint of data on the CD, any idea how small that is, or of the space between the data tracks? Or of the diameter of the laser beam? Next thing you know you'll be calling the data quantum.
"Because we are talking apples and oranges. Reed Solomon does absolutely nothing in the analog world. It only deals with on/off. I was afraid to use the term "jitter" when describing my work but I thought it might trigger some kinship to the concept of tiny amounts of interference or disturbance. This is why I prefaced it with the term "analog". I realize it is probably an oxymoron since jitter is deviation or displacement of a pulse in a digital signal. It may only have added some confusion to the correction process I use which is 100% analog and also lives in the nano scale."
Yes, jitter is a term used in the digital world. Maybe you can use the analogy of the electron microscope and trying to take a clear photo of the subject under view. Without vibration isolation you would only see a blur. And extending this analogy (get it, analogy?) a little further, it was actually a microscope vibration isolation stand that was pressed into service as the first highly touted audiophile vibration isolation stand. The Vibraplane. Perhaps you’ve heard of it. In any case, I’m afraid vibration isolation has been around with us in this hobby for at least twenty years. Maybe your amp would run more perfectly if you isolated it or is it immune?
Geoffkait, I think it is disingenuous of you to talk about measurement as much as you do, as I doubt you have ever had any measurement of any of you products.
I do agree that measurements would be great for valid concepts, but I know THD is invalid.
But enough of this endless palaver. Listen to the amp, before you get any reading of what you write.
"Geoffkait, I think it is disingenuous of you to talk about measurement as much as you do, as I doubt you have ever had any measurement of any of you products."
Bold move, Tbg. I discuss meaurements on this thread because that happens to be the subject of conversation. Roger initiated the discussion by continuing to state that his amp behaves quantum mechanically or in the nano scale realm thus cannot be measured. I am simply pointing out the illogic of that claim. With me so far? Now, whether I perform measurements on my products or not is rather irrelevant to this discussion, no? By the way, if you don’t mind my asking too much, are you a mind reader? How would you know whether I perform ANY measurements on ANY of my products or not? Are you Carnac the Magnificent?
"geoffkait: Maybe your amp would run more perfectly if you isolated it or is it immune?
Actually it is not immune - as tbg pointed out he was able to deal with some vibrations affecting the amp in his system."
Actually, and I hope I'm not being too picky, but Tbg is using mechanical coupling - not isolation, at least in the strict sense of the word, to deal with vibrations. I already mentioned somewhere along the line that coupling doesn’t isolate the amp from seismic or other structureborne vibrations, at least not nearly to the extent that mass-on-spring isolation devices are capable of. You definitely won’t see LIGO using mechanical coupling in their gravity wave detection experiment for isolating the sensitive optics, etc. LIGO relies very heavily on isolation of many types and stages to achieve the extreme sensitivity required to actually observe gravity waves, which I already pointed out have the amplitude of the diameter of a neutron. How sensitive is the experiment? It’s so sensitive that the noise of atoms moving in the sapphire thread used to support and isolate one of the mirrors is an issue. And we know that the tonearm, cartridge and tonearm wiring, just for example, have resonant frequencies Circa 10-12 Hz. So any vibrations of that frequency range coming up through the couplers will excite those resonant frequencies, no?
Geoffkait, you sound like Trump claiming that my post has nothing to do with the topic while you are the one that touts measurement.
Get serious! I know you never do measurements from our conversations over the years.
Fortunately, neither Roger nor I take your comments seriously. I guess you are also a member of the club as you never take anyones' opinions seriously.
So since all of those who have heard the H-Cat amp love it, I will bow out.
"Geoffkait, you sound like Trump claiming that my post has nothing to do with the topic while you are the one that touts measurement."
--- I am not touting measurements. Where did you get that from? What I am doing is illustrating that the whole idea that measurements cannot be made of extremely minute particles or phenomenon can be made and has been made for eons. So the argument that nano scale events or objects can't be measured must be false. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Tbg also wrote,
"Get serious! I know you never do measurements from our conversations over the years."
- Sorry, but you are mistaken. I am quite capable of and actually do perform measurements on some of my products, where appropriate. But as I said whether I do or not, who cares? Aren’t you paying attention?
That’s not all. He also wrote,
"Fortunately, neither Roger nor I take your comments seriously. I guess you are also a member of the club as you never take anyones’ opinions seriously."
Well, whoop di do. The feeling is mutual. I take people’s statements for what they are worth. You seem to have a frog in your pocket if you are looking for my opinion and can’t seem to keep up with the discussion.
He he also wrote,
"So since all of those who have heard the H-Cat amp love it, I will bow out."
OK, whatever. As I said you cannot seem to formulate a real argument on the various topics discussed on this thread. Plus you are sinking to personal attacks. Am I in a scene from 12 Angry Men? Lol
I will be the first to admit you guys have a better grip on the physical vibration issues. I'm still learning. But I do have a grip on electronic signals and how they behave in amplifier circuits. That has been my life's work. My obsession with accuracy has taken me down to the "tiny" world of analog errors. I wanted to see the first [velocity error] happen before it manifests itself as full blown distortion. That's the place to clobber it before it gets out of hand. I can force the phase of fundamental to stay within fractions of a degree of dead true.
The equivalent physical vibration would be extremely high to cause the fundamental to move a full octave or more away from true producing harmonic distortion. That is a serious shift in velocity.
Someone who is a member here and now, stepped away from his use of an active servo isolation platform made in Europe and costing many thousands of $..this was many years ago. I wonder why.
To Roger,
Many years ago Polk Audio used laser interferometry [probably from Johns Hopkins] to measure the cabinet motion of a new time aligned speaker. They found a speaker that sits directly on a hard surface or a carpet over foam floor and played at a reasonable volume level causes the cabinet to travel further than the excursion of the tweeter. This cabinet activity greatly reduces the advantages of time alignment. Would this severe cabinet motion with drivers enclosed or attached also create unwanted and audible Doppler distortion? Tom
theaudiotweak 1,337 posts 02-28-2016 9:24pm "Someone who is a member here and now, stepped away from his use of an active servo isolation platform made in Europe and costing many thousands of $..this was many years ago. I wonder why."
I'll go out on a limb here: operator error. Am I close?
Many years ago Polk Audio used laser interferometry [probably from Johns Hopkins] to measure the cabinet motion of a new time aligned speaker. They found a speaker that sits directly on a hard surface or a carpet over foam floor and played at a reasonable volume level causes the cabinet to travel further than the excursion of the tweeter. This cabinet activity greatly reduces the advantages of time alignment. Would this severe cabinet motion with drivers enclosed or attached also create unwanted and audible Doppler distortion? Tom
Yes I would say it has to have an impact although the underlying time alignment is still valid and the additional vibrations (caused by the cabinet) will add blur to an "aligned" image. IOW objects would have an average (out of focus) location contaminated at least in part by the motion of the cabinet.
"theaudiotweak 1,337 posts 02-28-2016 9:24pm "Someone who is a member here and now, stepped away from his use of an active servo isolation platform made in Europe and costing many thousands of $..this was many years ago. I wonder why."
I’ll go out on a limb here: operator error. Am I close?"
Addendum: unfortunately we had to listen to the person you’re referring to rant and rave about the European active servo isolation platform in question for years before he suddenly had a (weird) change of heart. Now, there are many reasons why someone might have a sudden change of heart, after ranting and raving for many years, not the least of which is some problem or another creeped into his system and he blamed it on the iso platform. Who knows? Something doesn’t add up. The person in question had this whole backstory that the Halcyonics platform had no resonant frequency. Pu-leeze!! If that were actually true I’m pretty sure the LIGO project would have looked them up a long time ago since the LIGO isolation team is the best in the world. As I have commented repeatedly the effectiveness of an isolation device is a function of many factors involved with set up, E.g., how the component is interfaced to the top plate, how the platform is mounted, whether a rack is used to mount the device, how much damping is applied to the top plate, things of that nature. Isolation is a black art and not for the squeamish or all thumbs types. lol
geoffkait, I will be the first to admit you guys have a better grip on the physical vibration issues. I'm still learning. But I do have a grip on electronic signals and how they behave in amplifier circuits. That has been my life's work. My obsession with accuracy has taken me down to the "tiny" world of analog errors. I wanted to see the first [velocity error] happen before it manifests itself as full blown distortion. That's the place to clobber it before it gets out of hand. I can force the phase of fundamental to stay within fractions of a degree of dead true.
The equivalent physical vibration would be extremely high to cause the fundamental to move a full octave or more away from true producing harmonic distortion. That is a serious shift in velocity."
Unfortunately it's all part of the same thing. It is probably wishful thinking to sweep structureborne vibration, acoustic vibration and vibration induced by motors and transformers under the table. I don't care how obsessed or how long anyone has toiled in some subject or another. If hard work was all that mattered we'd all be rich.
I once had two Halcyonics active isolation units. They were very expensive units and focused on low frequencies and thought that under my turntable and under my amp. This company ultimately raised prices greatly and was slow in delivery, but I never had an entire system isolated on these platforms.
At about that time I experienced the Stillpoints ESS rack and asked for a review sample. Everything on the ESS was better than two things on the active isolation platform.
The Stillpoints has a innovative method of turning vertical vibrations into horizontal vibrations and hence into heat. Ultimately, I had everything isolated on their Ultras and ESS racks.
Along came the Star Sound Tech Apprentice platforms. Under my amps it was more dynamic with a sharp leading edge and great high end to go with the benefits of HFC cables. I now use both companies products, each with its own benefits. I have a friend who needs real isolation for his experiments. He bought Halcyonics and showed no interest in Stillpoints.
Long ago, I learned that using a Goldmund single hard point under the transformer and two soft points elsewhere was a nice improvement.
My overall conclusion is that we need more science focusing on vibrations. Is it better to try to absorb them or to drain them away to mass. Meanwhile I go with what I hear.
"My overall conclusion is that we need more science focusing on vibrations."
What’s wrong with the science we already have? Vibration isolation is one of the most researched and best documented sciences around. The groundbreaking article Bad Vibes by Shannon Dickson twenty years ago (count em) in Stereophile opened (many) people’s eyes to this relatively new audio concept. Vibraplane had just made the scene and Seismic Sink from Townshend had been around a year or two already and mine followed on the heels of Vibraplane, but mine addressed all six directions of motion, whereas up to that point the devices that were out there addressed only the vertical. That was the advantage of a single air spring over everything else that employed three or one large one if you wish to count bicycle inner tube DIY. And with LIGOs recent announcement on the detection and observation of those rascally gravity waves we now have confirmation of the efficacy and necessity and the SCIENCE of vibration isolation. And of course the other advantage of a single airspring is that spring rate is greatly reduced, and sub Hertz resonant frequencies can then be achieved. As I mentioned somewhere along the line two of my iso platforms borrow from both Shannon Dickson’s idea, I met him at CES in 1997 when I was invited by Pierre Sprey to be part of Mapleshade’s exhibit, and LIGO’s ideas, but I’m not telling which ones. Lol
g. kait machina dynamica we do artificial atoms right
Geoffkait, so what is best for music isolation or draining vibrations and why? Somebody on this thread some time ago sold "Brilliant pebbles" in a bottle and later decided that having them in a bag was better. Was science and measurement involved. Incidentally, someone else on this thread thought that they did some good.
ddraudt443 posts02-29-2016 12:55pmWelcome to the Geoff Kiat unwanted opinions blog
This is only because the topic title was mistakenly entered as "Has anyone heard the new North American products preamp and amp?" instead of "Has anyone ever read about the new North American products preamp and amp?"
gdhal, why would you say this? It is true that there are many who haven't heard it but many other than me have. None have had anything bad to say about it. Does that bother you as it does someone else on this thread?
"Geoffkait, so what is best for music isolation or draining vibrations and why?
Geez, how long have you got? I could write a book. I have a funny feeling you’re looking for something short and sweet, though.
"Somebody on this thread some time ago sold "Brilliant pebbles" in a bottle and later decided that having them in a bag was better. Was science and measurement involved. Incidentally, someone else on this thread thought that they did some good."
Yup, that somebody would be your humble scribe. And, yes, there is science behind Brilliant Pebbles. There are also measurements involved, such as figuring out where exactly in a given room the various sizes of BP should be placed. For example, in room corners on the floor I measured around 6 dB higher sound pressure level than the average SPL in the room, so that would be a good place for the large BP. Power to the Pebble is the explanation for the pebbles and can be found on my web site at,
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