That’s very unusual, to refer to the speed of sound waves in the room as Mach 1, since Mach number is a dimensionless quantity, whereas the speed of sound has dimensions ft/second. Ordinarily we see Mach number associated with aircraft or spacecraft traveling through air at certain altitudes and temperatures. The SR-71 was a Mach 2+ aircraft! for example. The sonic boom of a jet aircraft is produced when air flow collapses around the rear of the compressible fluid of air at Mach 1. Mach 1 is not a constant and depends largely on temperature.
|
Tbg wrote,
"Mapman, from your speakers all sound waves travel the same speed. From your source and preamp to the amp each stage of amplification passes different speeds, except in Roger’s X-10 MkIII amp."
How does the amp know what the correct relationship of velocities of frequencies within the signal is supposed to be? From what you just said it sounds like the damage has already been done by the time the signal gets to the amplifier. I.e., that the velocities of the frequencies within the signal are already out of synch. Thus, the amplifier - if it is maintaining the "correct velocity" of all frequencies within the signal will simply *keep the already out-of-synch relationship of velocities in tact* whilst amplifying the out-of-synch signal, no?
|
Tbg wrote,
"I have said all that I understand about this revolution. Listen for yourself."
One more question: once the signal leaves the amplifier it still needs to get to the speakers. The speaker cables introduce additional velocity differences in the signal since the high frequencies travel closer to the surface of the conductor where the resistance is less, no?
|
Let’s take a look for a moment at what kind of errors you’re actually talking about here. We know that the velocity of the audio signal in copper wire is some high percentage of the speed of light, 186,000 miles per second. Let’s say for argument’s sake the frequency with the highest velocity travels at 75% of the speed of light, or 139,500 miles per second. Now, suppose there are differences in velocities depending on frequency. How much different are the velocities? 5%? 10% 30%? Let’s take the largest number for the sake of argument. Thus, 70% of 3/4 of the speed of light is the velocity of the slowest frequency within the audio signal. That's our assumption. Which happens to be actually another big number. A huge number, in fact. 98,000 miles per second. Anyone care to take a guess how long it takes a signal traveling at 98,000 miles per second to traverse the circuits in an amplifier? Compared to say room anomalies and phase errors produced by speaker crossovers and differences in velocities inside the amp seem extremely inconsequential, if I can be so bold. Of course, you might be correct and your amp might be the biggest thing since Skippy Chunky Peanut Butter. It’s just not obvious why.
|
Roger, good explanation. Thnx |
Mapman, you might be onto something, if it's anything like the love fest over on the HFC thread. ;-)
|
Tbg wrote,
"Roger, this is a good explanation, but I suspect it is over gdhall's head."
That argument, "I'm smart and you're stupid" is one way to try and win arguments. That's the ugly sibling of, "I have more than fifty years in audio so I must be right." Or the other logical fallacy, "I have a PhD in Microbiology so I win, you lose." |
Tbg wrote,
"geoffkait, just listen to the amp.
Yes, having all frequencies arrive at your ears at the same time affects the sweet spot. I abandoned electrical engineering when I discovered all they cared about was having a circuit that worked. I have never heard two amps by different manufacturers sound alike. Similarly, I have never found all speakers sound alike in my room with everything else held constant. This could go on and on. Mankind does not know everything about nature’s laws."
I never said the amp like Roger’s doesn’t affect the sweet spot. All I’m saying is it’s not the final solution that you guys claim it is. Not for sweet spot. Not for "live" sound. Get real.
I also never said all amps sound alike, or that all rooms sound alike, or all cables sound alike or all speakers sound alike. Those are all what are commonly known as Strawman arguments.
|
There are many room anomalies that influence the size and location of the sweet spot. You know, slap echo, standing waves of many frequencies, and reflected waves. There are many sound pressure peaks around the room that have much higher SPL than the average speaker SPL in the room! Unless you’ve actually mapped out the sound pressure levels in the room there is no way to control the sweet spot. Not to mention the speaker locations’ influence on the sweet spot. Trying to deal with room anomalies AND speaker positions at the same time is analogous to trying to solve two simultaneous equations in three unknowns. Many audiophiles are sitting right in the middle of a standing wave and don’t even know it.
|
Roger wrote,
"If you showed a smart phone to someone in the 1600’s you would be burned at the stake for witchcraft.
This is a time of incredible advancements in technology.
Still - Dolby Labs with all there millions cannot duplicate what I have done.
They have to install 27 speakers in the theaters and artificially pan sounds through separate channels to "give you the thrill of being there".
That’s because they don’t know how to project a stable sound object into mid air."
It is nothing more than very expensive "fake".
This amplifying method is self-evident and will easily stand the test of time.
You can’t tell someone that "it’s impossible" or "you can’t do that" - after its already been done.
It is a moot point."
Perhaps you misunderstand what I’m saying. I’m NOT saying your amp doesn’t work. I’m NOT saying your amp is not the only amp that does what you say. I’m NOT even saying your amp isn’t an advancement. By the way I’m not very fond of the expression, "it will stand the test of time" since obviously one would have to wait a long time to actually find out if that’s true or not. We’re not there yet. So, actually, and I hate to judge too harshly, the statements you made in the paragraphs I just quoted are simply more Strawman arguments that mischaracterize my position and sidestep the issues I raised with respect to the great number of problems INHERENT in home audio systems that distort the sound and prevent it from sounding "live." Problems other than the amplifier.
|
Roger, by your own definition at least some of the distortions I am referring to - the ones separate from amplifier distortions - are DYNAMIC. Seismic vibration or any vibration, e.g., transformer vibration, motor vibration, that produces jitter in CD playback or that affects the signal anywhere in the components or cable produces dynamic distortion, no? Vibration is not static. Same with room anomalies, comb filter effects are dynamic and produce dynamic distortion, no? Magnetic fields are not static and produce dynamic distortion, no? |
Tbg wrote,
"geoffkait, I don’t think anyone said it was a final solution for the sweet spot. I never said anything about the sweet spot nor about the final solution. You cannot win an argument by changing the topic."
But it is what you two have been saying, by claiming that an amplifier can produce "live" sound in the room, the same "live" sound from the recording venue. I am simply pointing out that that statement cannot be TRUE because there are SO MANY PROBLEMS INHERENT in the home audio system that DISTORT the sound, not just amplifiers. Follow? |
Roger wrote,
"What I have done is to guarantee the flow will be at exactly one constant speed or velocity.
That was no simple - It takes control at quantum levels to achieve this function."
At quantum levels? Do you mean nanoscale? Are you doing something quantum mechanically? Or are you just fond of the word quantum? ;-) |
Geoffkait: Are you doing something quantum mechanically? Or are you just fond of the word quantum? ;-)
Roger: Yes - part of the auto-focus circuitry that tracks sound objects (as a very small signal)
I do not see that auto-focus circuitry as being quantum mechanical even for very small signals. But maybe I'm missing something that's too small to see. ;-) |
Hey, you can’t have it both ways. If Roger enjoys doing it and wants to discuss it that’s actually what audio forums are for, no? Nothing like new technology to stimulate the old brain cells my granddaddy used to say. Now that the cat is out of the bag I say let’s go for it, and carry on the discussion. So far you guys are giving us the old Mutt and Jeff routine, one says go, the other says stop. I’d be interested in details of the quantum mechanics involved. So far I only see the name quantum mechanics dropped, as it were. Let's talk turkey.
cheers,
Geoff Kait
Machina Dynamica
No Goats No Glory |
Roger wrote,
"atmasphere: "as Carl Sagan said "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence".
Your right - I guess since it cannot be measured then the only "evidence" is how it performs which by Carl’s definition has to be "extraordinary"."
Roger responded: "I’ll settle for that. BTW I was in no way trying to dig at you. I have tremendous respect for you and your reputation. I was just trying to point out that even things you can measure don’t in and of themselves provide answers so easily. It is even more difficult "working in the dark"."
This part is mine -- If Roger’s amp works quantum mechanically (which I’m not convinced it is) then any measurements taken with respect to the quantum nature of the amplifier, if it actually has a quantum nature, would collapse the wave function, no? Furthermore, repeated subsequent attempts to measure some property or another, assuming the quantum state is allowed to build back up again in between measurements, would probably yield different results. Which would be rather unsatisfactory. Of course this all assumes that what Roger is saying about the quantum nature of his amplifier is true and not a cover story. ;-)
GK
|
Roger wrote,
"I have done this with top EE’s in the government. It went right over their heads."
With top EEs in the Government? And it went over their heads? Surprise, surprise.
"What does that tell you? That I’m a genius? No. Just that I did the hard homework and found something everyone else missed because they are stuck thinking inside the box."
If you’re trying to say that there is a status quo, well, duh!
geoff kait
machina dynamica
no goats no glory
|
Mapman wrote,
"All the good engineers i know think out of the box all the time.
All the the tech talk nobody can understand has no meaning obviously. The product will live or die on its value proposition and sonic merits like all do.
I agree with atmosphere that talking about things nobody understands does not do any justice. Just my two cents."
Pardon me for saying so but that seems to be an argument for limiting discussions to topics or subjects that are either common knowledge or understood by everyone, including the man under the bridge. If we limit what people can say to what someone believes should be easily understood by everyone then who will be the judge and who will be the jury? If there is going to be a break out from the dull repetitive rehashing of the same old thing we must not constrain discussion to fit anyone’s preconceived notion of what’s allowable, what is and what isn’t scientifically possible or correct. What’s there to be afraid of? Stop trying to put everything in a box.
No goats no glory
|
Tbg wrote,
"So vibrations being drained seem to be important to sound also."
nobody ever said they weren’t. You have to isolate and dissipate. You can also damp. I wrote about the importance of damping the top plate of isolation devices twenty years ago. Gee, how time flies. And that's also why my iso platforms came with integrated vibration dissipation for the top plate. Plus constrained layer damping of transformers and CD transport compartments not to mention capacitors is pretty much de riguer these days. In terms of distortion you never know what you got til you lose it. Or put another way, you get used to whatever level of distortion you’ve got. As I mentioned somewhere along the line on one of these threads there are many causes of distortion, some of which are those things that go bump in the night. You know what I'm talking about.
Tbg also wrote,
"I have been able to greatly improve the sound of Roger’s amp..."
Ouch! That’s gotta hurt.
g. kait
machina dynamica
no goats no glory
|
Tom wrote,
"Geoff, If you took your Machina Dynamica and direct coupled all of them they'd be more Dynamica."
That's what I did. I direct coupled all of them. HEL-loo! Do you think I fell off the potato truck yesterday?
no goats, no glory |
Tom wrote,
"After you took the time to learn the technique of direct mechanical coupling of transformers, caps, circuit boards and output devices you would then hear a huuuuge benefit versus the same components when damped or constrained. (Terribly depressing words they are).. I quit the damp thing twenty years ago. And for isolation it never can be achieved. If there were no matter/existence ..well then you have isolation.
I suspect you might be using one of those Strawman argument things on me. I assume you haven’t found the right method of damping. Isolating the the circuit boards from the deleterious effects of ye olde buzz saw, the large transformer, is most assuredly something you should try some time. Nobody ever said isolation techniques are perfect. I mean, after all, the isolation device is (usually) a low pass filter so even the lowest resonant frequency you can muster still let’s very low frequencies in. As we saw a couple weeks ago the LIGO project finally observed gravity waves and they had to use isolation to do it. Isolation of the optics. So, you really probably should delete the expression, isolation can never be achieved, from your repertoire. But getting down to say 3 Hz is enough for audiophile porpoises. Occasionally you'll one get down below 1 Hz. Like mine. I use damping in iso designs because it’s needed to control resonances on the top plate. I also use mechanical coupling in my designs, both for the iso platform to the floor and for the component to the top plate. Obviously one would like the vibration to exit the system as rapidly as possible which is why I espouse extremely hard materials such as diamond hard ceramics and even diamonds. Now, I’m not saying you can’t use the WRONG damping materials or that you can’t over-damp if you’re not careful. Noone said it was easy.
Tom also wrote,
"Why would you want to constrain or damp the required tools to reproduce your music when you don’t need to?"
Tom, what I’m referring to is removing, dissipating, converting to heat that vibration that would otherwise remain in the system and wreak havoc on anything the natural frequency of which excited by the frequency of the vibration, cables, tonearm, cartridge, tonearm wires, CD laser, etc. and produce audible distortion. As I intimated previously chances are good that you just got used to a certain level of distortion twenty years ago and never looked back. ;-)
G. K. |
mapman
12,877 posts
02-27-2016 10:09pm
Hmm machina dampica? Got a nice ring to it.
Thank you Mask Man
|
theaudiotweak
1,337 posts
02-28-2016 9:24pm
"Someone who is a member here and now, stepped away from his use of an active servo isolation platform made in Europe and costing many thousands of $..this was many years ago. I wonder why."
I'll go out on a limb here: operator error. Am I close?
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Roger wrote,
"The trick is not to waste your hard work on the wrong idea."
eggs ackly! I couldn't have said it better.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts
|
Tom wrote,
"Oh Geoff
Direct mechanical coupling ..no bed springs in between no rubber in between.
Matching material speed and material shape is a part of maintaining signal continuity. Maintains Dynamica instead of reducing Dynamica."
Sorry, my way is better. Way better. Apparently you never received the memo about isoaltion. Didn’t you hear the news about gravity waves? They couldn’t have detected them with isolation. By directly coupling only you create a pathway for the seismic and other structureborne vibration to come up into the electronics. And we know that can't be right! Duh! How long has it been since the Vibraplane was introduced to unsuspecting audiophiles? Twenty years? I guess not everyone got the memo. When you guys stovepipe your projects sometimes you miss all the good stuff. You have to do both - isolation and direct coupling. Better head back to the drawing board.
cheers
|
Roger wrote,
"The most startling aspect of the analog "jitter" is how bad it is compared to other destructive forces caused by the physical world. The unstable velocity in the amplifier happens at nano-scopic levels (far below measurable levels). But again - knowing it is there and making attempts to catch it happening based on [theory] is no different than you placing lead weights on boxes and draping your cables over insulators knowing that you are blindly affecting the issue."
pretty sure that entire paragraph is another one of those false arguments, you know....a Strawman argument. What is illogical about it? Well, for starters, we have the capability to measure things that are nano scale. Actually the way CD players work is based on the geometry calculation of how the quantum mechanical laser reads the nanoscale data on the disc. Now, just because the data is nano scale and the laser beam is nano scale doesn't mean that the laser reading operation is quantum mechanical. It's not. The only thing quantum mechanical about the entire process is the CD laser! like all lasers, you know being a quantum well. Obviously we have the capability to measure the nano scale data on the CD otherwise the Reed Solomon error detection correction wouldn't work. Another perhaps even more dramatic example of the the ability to measure nano scale phenomenon or waves or matter is the recent announcement that the LIGO project finally observed gravity waves. This announcement was actually made only a couple of weeks ago. Now, why is this relevant? Because the amplitude of the gravity waves that LIGO detected was on the order of the diameter of a neutron. That's what we call nano scale. So, with this measurement by LIGO we don't have to be theorizing or stumbling around wondering whether gravity waves exist or whether black holes exist or, by extension, whether the Big Bang is real.
geoff kait
machinadynamica.com
no goats no glory |
"Oh Brother!!
Off topic rants cause me to glaze over.
Then I skip them and look for real information.
Thank you Roger, and all who have shared pertinent info.
"Never argue with a fool, onlookers might not be able to tell the difference" Poor Richard"
The only one I see ranting here is you. I suppose every organ grinder has to have a monkey.
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Roger wrote,
"Ok - so if we already have the capability to measure things that are nano scale and you are assuming it can be applied to sound reproduction - why haven’t we done it already? Has the audio industry been wasting its time when all they had to do is use the magic tools we already have?"
obviously measurements have been made of atomic particles for what, a centrury? Of the diameter of a neutron, the mass of an electron, the wavelength of a photon and so forth. They even determined the mass of a photon. Uh, it’s zero. Like your amp’s distortion. So Measurement at the nano scale is nothing new. For audio, one can measure the sensitivity of extremely sensitive preamps, you know, the ones with noise figures 130 dB down. And THD 0.0001%. Those are mighty small numbers, no? The size of a pinpoint of data on the CD, any idea how small that is, or of the space between the data tracks? Or of the diameter of the laser beam? Next thing you know you'll be calling the data quantum.
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Roger wrote,
"Because we are talking apples and oranges. Reed Solomon does absolutely nothing in the analog world. It only deals with on/off. I was afraid to use the term "jitter" when describing my work but I thought it might trigger some kinship to the concept of tiny amounts of interference or disturbance. This is why I prefaced it with the term "analog". I realize it is probably an oxymoron since jitter is deviation or displacement of a pulse in a digital signal. It may only have added some confusion to the correction process I use which is 100% analog and also lives in the nano scale."
Yes, jitter is a term used in the digital world. Maybe you can use the analogy of the electron microscope and trying to take a clear photo of the subject under view. Without vibration isolation you would only see a blur. And extending this analogy (get it, analogy?) a little further, it was actually a microscope vibration isolation stand that was pressed into service as the first highly touted audiophile vibration isolation stand. The Vibraplane. Perhaps you’ve heard of it. In any case, I’m afraid vibration isolation has been around with us in this hobby for at least twenty years. Maybe your amp would run more perfectly if you isolated it or is it immune?
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Tbg wrote,
"Geoffkait, I think it is disingenuous of you to talk about measurement as much as you do, as I doubt you have ever had any measurement of any of you products."
Bold move, Tbg. I discuss meaurements on this thread because that happens to be the subject of conversation. Roger initiated the discussion by continuing to state that his amp behaves quantum mechanically or in the nano scale realm thus cannot be measured. I am simply pointing out the illogic of that claim. With me so far? Now, whether I perform measurements on my products or not is rather irrelevant to this discussion, no? By the way, if you don’t mind my asking too much, are you a mind reader? How would you know whether I perform ANY measurements on ANY of my products or not? Are you Carnac the Magnificent?
no goats, no glory
|
Tbg wrote,
"Geoffkait, you sound like Trump claiming that my post has nothing to do with the topic while you are the one that touts measurement."
--- I am not touting measurements. Where did you get that from? What I am doing is illustrating that the whole idea that measurements cannot be made of extremely minute particles or phenomenon can be made and has been made for eons. So the argument that nano scale events or objects can't be measured must be false. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
Tbg also wrote,
"Get serious! I know you never do measurements from our conversations over the years."
- Sorry, but you are mistaken. I am quite capable of and actually do perform measurements on some of my products, where appropriate. But as I said whether I do or not, who cares? Aren’t you paying attention?
That’s not all. He also wrote,
"Fortunately, neither Roger nor I take your comments seriously. I guess you are also a member of the club as you never take anyones’ opinions seriously."
Well, whoop di do. The feeling is mutual. I take people’s statements for what they are worth. You seem to have a frog in your pocket if you are looking for my opinion and can’t seem to keep up with the discussion.
He he also wrote,
"So since all of those who have heard the H-Cat amp love it, I will bow out."
OK, whatever. As I said you cannot seem to formulate a real argument on the various topics discussed on this thread. Plus you are sinking to personal attacks. Am I in a scene from 12 Angry Men? Lol
no goats no glory
|
Roger wrote,
"geoffkait: Maybe your amp would run more perfectly if you isolated it or is it immune?
Actually it is not immune - as tbg pointed out he was able to deal with some vibrations affecting the amp in his system."
Actually, and I hope I'm not being too picky, but Tbg is using mechanical coupling - not isolation, at least in the strict sense of the word, to deal with vibrations. I already mentioned somewhere along the line that coupling doesn’t isolate the amp from seismic or other structureborne vibrations, at least not nearly to the extent that mass-on-spring isolation devices are capable of. You definitely won’t see LIGO using mechanical coupling in their gravity wave detection experiment for isolating the sensitive optics, etc. LIGO relies very heavily on isolation of many types and stages to achieve the extreme sensitivity required to actually observe gravity waves, which I already pointed out have the amplitude of the diameter of a neutron. How sensitive is the experiment? It’s so sensitive that the noise of atoms moving in the sapphire thread used to support and isolate one of the mirrors is an issue. And we know that the tonearm, cartridge and tonearm wiring, just for example, have resonant frequencies Circa 10-12 Hz. So any vibrations of that frequency range coming up through the couplers will excite those resonant frequencies, no?
|
I previously wrote,
"theaudiotweak
1,337 posts
02-28-2016 9:24pm
"Someone who is a member here and now, stepped away from his use of an active servo isolation platform made in Europe and costing many thousands of $..this was many years ago. I wonder why."
I’ll go out on a limb here: operator error. Am I close?"
Addendum: unfortunately we had to listen to the person you’re referring to rant and rave about the European active servo isolation platform in question for years before he suddenly had a (weird) change of heart. Now, there are many reasons why someone might have a sudden change of heart, after ranting and raving for many years, not the least of which is some problem or another creeped into his system and he blamed it on the iso platform. Who knows? Something doesn’t add up. The person in question had this whole backstory that the Halcyonics platform had no resonant frequency. Pu-leeze!! If that were actually true I’m pretty sure the LIGO project would have looked them up a long time ago since the LIGO isolation team is the best in the world. As I have commented repeatedly the effectiveness of an isolation device is a function of many factors involved with set up, E.g., how the component is interfaced to the top plate, how the platform is mounted, whether a rack is used to mount the device, how much damping is applied to the top plate, things of that nature. Isolation is a black art and not for the squeamish or all thumbs types. lol
geoff kait
machina dramatica
|
Roger wrote,
geoffkait, I will be the first to admit you guys have a better grip on the physical vibration issues. I'm still learning. But I do have a grip on electronic signals and how they behave in amplifier circuits. That has been my life's work. My obsession with accuracy has taken me down to the "tiny" world of analog errors. I wanted to see the first [velocity error] happen before it manifests itself as full blown distortion. That's the place to clobber it before it gets out of hand. I can force the phase of fundamental to stay within fractions of a degree of dead true.
The equivalent physical vibration would be extremely high to cause the fundamental to move a full octave or more away from true producing harmonic distortion. That is a serious shift in velocity."
Unfortunately it's all part of the same thing. It is probably wishful thinking to sweep structureborne vibration, acoustic vibration and vibration induced by motors and transformers under the table. I don't care how obsessed or how long anyone has toiled in some subject or another. If hard work was all that mattered we'd all be rich.
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Tbg wrote,
"My overall conclusion is that we need more science focusing on vibrations."
What’s wrong with the science we already have? Vibration isolation is one of the most researched and best documented sciences around. The groundbreaking article Bad Vibes by Shannon Dickson twenty years ago (count em) in Stereophile opened (many) people’s eyes to this relatively new audio concept. Vibraplane had just made the scene and Seismic Sink from Townshend had been around a year or two already and mine followed on the heels of Vibraplane, but mine addressed all six directions of motion, whereas up to that point the devices that were out there addressed only the vertical. That was the advantage of a single air spring over everything else that employed three or one large one if you wish to count bicycle inner tube DIY. And with LIGOs recent announcement on the detection and observation of those rascally gravity waves we now have confirmation of the efficacy and necessity and the SCIENCE of vibration isolation. And of course the other advantage of a single airspring is that spring rate is greatly reduced, and sub Hertz resonant frequencies can then be achieved. As I mentioned somewhere along the line two of my iso platforms borrow from both Shannon Dickson’s idea, I met him at CES in 1997 when I was invited by Pierre Sprey to be part of Mapleshade’s exhibit, and LIGO’s ideas, but I’m not telling which ones. Lol
g. kait
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms right |
Tbg wrote,
"Geoffkait, so what is best for music isolation or draining vibrations and why?
Geez, how long have you got? I could write a book. I have a funny feeling you’re looking for something short and sweet, though.
"Somebody on this thread some time ago sold "Brilliant pebbles" in a bottle and later decided that having them in a bag was better. Was science and measurement involved. Incidentally, someone else on this thread thought that they did some good."
Yup, that somebody would be your humble scribe. And, yes, there is science behind Brilliant Pebbles. There are also measurements involved, such as figuring out where exactly in a given room the various sizes of BP should be placed. For example, in room corners on the floor I measured around 6 dB higher sound pressure level than the average SPL in the room, so that would be a good place for the large BP. Power to the Pebble is the explanation for the pebbles and can be found on my web site at,
machinadynamica.com/machina17.htm
cheerios
geoff kait
machina dynamica
|
Tbg wrote,
"Geoff,
You didn’t answer the prime question in the first sentence. Also what measurements were made to decide what pebbles should be used?"
well, obviously I am quite fond of mechanical springs, and I can now isolate anything between 1 lb and 250 lb or more as they are scalable. I am also a fan of using roller bearings in conjuction with springs, you know, to extend the number of directions of motion that are isolated. I am also a big fan of bungee cords, believe it or not. My Promethean and Nimbus iso stands, no longer on production, came with Tekna Sonic dampers attached to the top plate, which were use to quiet the top shelf. I also at one time used viscoelastic damping for the larger springs I used to sell, that have evolved into the smaller and lower profile springs. I also cryogenically treat springs these days and have a number of different springs to choose from depending on load requirements. In many cases the springs can be placed directly underneath the component as they are inherently higher in lateral stability than the older larger springs. I am a big fan of using the NASA grade ceramic cones from Golden Sound not only as support cones but as node dampers on speakers, components, top plate, etc. I also have a very specialized constrained layer damper (VibraBlock) for damping large transformers and the top plate of iso platforms. I sell natural cork for isolating, well, technically damping, printed circuit boards from the deleterious physical effects of the transformer. I also use natural cork strips to suppress the natural inclination for capacitors to vibrate during operation as well as the physical influence of the transformer. Who’s idea was it to bolt down the transformer and the printed circuit boards, anyway? Lol As the energy requirements get scaled back from the room corners to less demanding applications I use smaller and smaller BP; so for windows, in proximity to small tubes, on connectors of interconnects, etc. I use what I refer to as the Mirko, the smallest BP. Each Mikro contains a number of different types of mineral crystals, tiny crystals, which each have a certain bandwidth of operation, as it were, based on it’s unique crystal structure. Brilliant Pebbles debuted at the London Hi Fi Show (OMG has it really been 10 years ago?!) and I was informed by the exhibit’s organizer that many attendees in the room exclaimed that particular exhibit was not only the best sound at the show but the best sound they had ever heard. There was one Large Brilliant Pebbles in each room corner and one Large BP on the top of each speaker cabinet.
geoff kait
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms right!
|
Tom, I read your post as one long Strawman argument and I’ll tell you why: You mischaracterized what I said or put words in my mouth. I said I use very rapid techniques for evacuating vibration from the top plate, the vibration produced by airborne, residual seismic vibration that gets up through the iso system or vibration of motor, transformer, etc. Furthermore, extremely rapid evacuation of vibration from the iso system is assured by employing extremely hard materials, as I stated, materials as hard as diamond on the Moh scale, both under the component and under the iso device. Mpingo discs - another extremely fast energy dissipator. They have many uses around the system and around the room. In fact, my techniques are much faster than yours. See the irony? That’s why the sound using my techniques will be more open, more dynamic, more detailed, and have more bass slam than competing methods.
I do not use constrained layer damping as a means of isolation. Rather, I use constrained layer damping as a means of reducing vibration in applications such as transformer and capacitors. Direct coupling will NOT accomplish this! One assumes you do nothing to restrain these known producers of vibration. It sounds like you’re perhaps from the Michael Green school of letting the vibrations RUN FREE, not attempting to attenuate them, isolate them, damp them or otherwise interfere with the natural flow of vibration in the room and in the audio system. I also use the fast energy dissipators like the Tekna Sonics, remember?
I am quite confident your statement implying that you have tried all vibration isolation devices is most likely just puffery. All that talk is fine but it strikes me that you actually don’t address very low frequency structureborne vibration or seismic vibration. Which is really the whole point of isolation, no? Certainly direct coupling isn’t the answer. One assumes you’re simply ignoring it and hoping it just goes away.
The only good vibration is a dead vibration.
geoff kait
machina dramatica |
What's up with all the Lack of Science comments? Am I missing something? In the first place it's a rather easy experiment to conduct, putting a glass filled with water on the surface of the iso platform and visually observing the absence of ripples on the surface of the water compared to the case of the glass of water without isolation. Of you are really curious which I actually doubt you can always use an accelerometer. Isolation is a lot like the weather. Everyone complains about it but nobody does anything about it. The same folks that complain about lack of science seem to be waiting for someone else to investigate this whole thing.
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Strawman is not intended to be demeaning. A Strawman argument is the term applied to an argument or statement that presents other person’s argument incorrectly, whether intentional or not. It is a technical term used in debate that I use occasionally when I feel someone mischaracterized my comments or puts words in my mouth. Sorry you misinterpreted my meaning. I like to keep things straight in these discussions. Makes life easier, no? I just got back in so let me read what you wrote in it’s entirely and see if and how I wish to respond.
from Wikipedia,
A straw man is a common form of argument and is an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not advanced by that opponent.
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Am I taking to Tom or someone else? I am not sure why you’re getting all wrapped around the axle but it certainly seems odd that you would take exception to my statements that were directed at Tom. Especially my rebuttal of his position or claim or whatever that isolation is impossible. By the way your approach from what I have read so far, I haven’t read your entire post yet, seems to echo Michael Green’s TuneLand approach quite a bit. Especially in terms of eschewing isolation and damping and letting the vibrations run free. Moreover, in terms of attitude. You know, the misunderstood long suffering audio manufacturer who has a chip on his shoulder regarding anyone with a scientific argument. I hate to judge before all the facts are in but it appears you believe your company actually transcends science and technical arguments. OK, so let me take some time out to peruse the rest of your post and I’ll get back here in some reasonable amount of time with some further thoughts. This looks like it could be fun.
Geoff Kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio concepts |
Audiopoint wrote,
"Reply: We wish! The monies invested for research and development alone would have let two of us retire at sixty. It all started with a brass ball bearing in 1988. You make false statements based on having no knowledge whatsoever of your competition’s history nor provide a basic respect for others participating in this industry. After reviewing many of your statements and in my opinion it appears to be a ‘my way or the highway’ basis for your product offerings and/or participation here."
I was addressing TOM. Is TOM also Audiopoint? If YOU (Audiopoint) are supposedly going to talk to a PhD seismologist ...very impressive ;-) ...in the future then how could YOU have explored seismic vibrations in the past? More to the point, how could you have explored all vibration isolation devices or concepts in an knowledgeable way if you had no experience or knowledge of the subject? Your answer is actually unresponsive to my comment to TOM - I.e., he TOM could not have evaluated ALL vibration isolation devices - which was the claim TOM made. So, I wouldn’t be so quite so quick on the tigger accusing me of lying. Save the drama for your mamma.
Audiopoint wrote,
"In closing: NOT TO TAKE POSSESSION OF THIS THREAD:"
No need to yell. Calm down, you're starting to sound possessed yourself.
Geoff kait
machina dynamica
we do artificial atoms right
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Audiopoint,
My impression is you need to relax a little bit more. Lol If you are not Tom then why in Earth were you responding to comments I had directed at him? Especially the one regarding all the isolation devices he claimed he had tried. Were you sticking up for your shill? Who knows? That you could possibly think Tom agrees with me on isolation is just plain bizarre. You’ve probably been cooped up with all that mechanical grounding stuff for thirty years. Stove piping for that long means you’ve been missing all the good stuff that’s been going on. Time to diversify, my good man.
cheerios
geoff kait
machina dynamica
no goats no glory
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Tbg wote,
"I think we should all ignore geoff’s postings and get back to the original question that was obfuscated by Mapman and company and then inadvertently I congested the thread by adding the Star sound benefit to the X-10 MkIII.
Please add you experiences with the H-Cat or the Star Sound, not your beliefs about it without hearing."
There is a wide range of topics I am perfectly capable of discussing. Would you believe I actually don’t have to hear whatever component or tweak is on the table in order to discuss it. As a theoretical and experimental physicist I’m not only interested in how something sounds but the theory involved. In other words I’m interested in ideas. As Judge Judy says, if you don’t know just say you don’t know. Everyone who's heard the amp raise your hand.
geoff kait
machinadynamica.com
we do artificial atoms right
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Tbg, it’s an uh, affectation to refer to the speed of sound in one’s listening room as Mach 1. Give me a break. Actually Roger's whole manner of discourse is kind of an affectation, although I can live with that, so no big deal. Besides most speakers, unless they’re time aligned, provide the listener with the various frequencies of the drivers arriving at different times anyway, no? And are we supposed to just sweep room anomalies under the rug? Comb filter effects mess you up!
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PT Barnum quotes
“Advertising is to a genuine article what manure is to land, - it largely increases the product.”
“WHATEVER YOU DO, DO IT WITH ALL YOUR MIGHT Work at it, if necessary, early and late, in season and out of season, not leaving a stone unturned, and never deferring for a single hour that which can be done just as well now. The old proverb is full of truth and meaning, "Whatever is worth doing at all, is worth doing well."
“The possession of a perfect knowledge of your business is an absolute necessity in order to insure success.”
― P.T. Barnum, Art of Money Getting: Golden Rules for Getting Money
"Perpetual motion has been the dream of scientific visionaries, and a pretended but cheating realization of it has been exhibited by scamp after scamp. I understand that one is at this moment being invented over in Jersey City. I have purchased more than one “perpetual motion” myself."
G. Kait
machina dynamica
advanced audio conceits |
ddraudt
443 posts
02-29-2016 12:55pm
Welcome to the Geoff Kiat unwanted opinions blog
Nobody's holding a gun to your head, ddrought.
g.k.
m.d.
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Ddough wrote,
"Thanks G, next time I need still water I know what to use!
So sorry you have missed the whole point. AGAIN!!!
Sorrier that knowledgable friends are wasting there time trying to help when you are just trying to be obtuse. or worse, you ARE that obtuse!
I hope you will troll on other sights and not understand anything there.
Please Take your dumb troll friends with you.
To those interested in H-cat, I hope you realize soon... that any further communication with trolls is a waste of time, they feed on responses.
Please don’t feed the trolls!!!"
That’s real good, ddough. If you don’t mind too much can I suggest you consider taking a remedial English course. You may carry on with your shilling, now. Have a nice day.
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