the distance is approx 5.5 feet only but its not so much too near or hot sounding its the height: a bit too tall with their stands for my room length AND couch (the latter which will not chg WAF etc). |
5.5 feet is very nearfield....even studio nearfield monitors may require more space
I would not recommend the MM. |
|
Wslam,can you elaborate between the Magico,and your Revel Salons?
Best! |
And I'd like to know what you think of their performance at low listening levels. |
Point of information: you don't have to spend 20+k for a heroic two-way to get musical gestalt! There are others out there for less than half that cost that offer more and are less demanding of the associated equipment. Finally some are taking notice the two-way done right gets closer to the original recorded event via simplicity of design and paying attention to details.
Says me!
Steve Rothermel
Engineer/Associate
Ridge Street Audio Designs |
I know wsalm...oddly there is another 5 feet from my listening position to the back wall as well. Odd set up, but have to live with for the time being. |
I heard and was awed by the Magico Mini at CES. With a huge soundstage, crystalline clarity, and that elusive 'close your eyes and you are there' quality that I'm sure other manufacturers must all shoot for, and mostly miss.
I'll not purport to be a qualified judge of whether or not they're worth $22 large, but I'll admit that is a little out of my budget.
I did find a speaker that I could afford that posessed these same qualities, and the measurements to back it up: the BRSE HR-1 (www.BlueRidgeSoundEng.Com). They are an even younger company than Magico, but just as on the ball. That they have created somthing that I believe can actually compete with the $22,000 Magico Mini for $20,000 less is flat out amazing.
I don't know that I'd go so far as to say that those of you ready to plunk down $22 large on the Magico should buy these instead, but I will say that those of us without $22,000 to burn are no longer left out of the truly high-end.
The guys at BRSE are straight-up too, they even mention the Magico Mini as an excellent speaker and suggest that anyone with $22,000 to spend go give them a listen. They say nothing negative about it, only praise.
Perhaps these guys aren't quite sane, praising other speakers and selling theirs at rediculously low prices, (see current Audiogon auction) but it doesn't matter to me if they get thrown in the loony bin, I've already got my pair and I love 'em! |
Wslam,
I can say I am interested and intrigued by the Magico speakers. Maybe I can make some type of arrangements to audition the Mini's. Who knows, maybe they will be part of my line-up someday in the not too distant future. |
I will try to answer everyon's questions. This forum is so user-unfriendly...
sirspeedy70680@earthlink.net:
Salon vs MM. Not really apples to apples. I am selling my Salon to a friend, and I am going to tell you the same thing as I told him. The Salon does *everything* well. They are extremely well engineered. The MM however takes sound reproduction from an entirely different approach. The fact that Alon Wolf chose to use an Acoustic Suspection design is his way to make a statement imo. And the results (I also briefly heard the Magico Model 6 (USD98k) are indeed different. Namely, the transients responses, the dynamics (macro and micro) are in a totally different league.
However, when you look at the Salon, it can reach 20Hz in-room with 'ease' and authority. The Salon does *more*, but the 'region' where the MM works, it works SO much better then the Salon (well, differently anyway).
Drubin,
They maintain a very 'full' sound even under low volume. This was a surprise to me, but they work beautifully at lower volume. (like right now! =) )
Mr. Rothermel,
I am sure you can get by with a LOT less money. The MM are one of those 'finer things in life'. I only wish I have the space for the Model 6 and I would spend 98k on them.
Henryhk,
You do sound like you have a very interesting room setup. One very important thing I have come to learn, is that the MM loves space from the sidewalls. I started with 28in from sidewalls, and they are now close to 40in from sidewalls. The changes are dramatic. Once they move closer to the sidewalls, you lose a little more of that 'magic'.
Response34,
You should definitely hunt down a pair and listen. They are truly remarkable. |
Wslam,thanks for the thoughtful response.I have heard the Salons,and liked(not loved)them.Yet,I do believe a really good(rare)two way has a very coherent presentation.One I am fascinated with.I know,from Jeff Rowland,who I have spoken with,that the Minis are "WAY" dynamic,and he stated the folks who have heard his speakers were "amazed" at the performance vs size.Hence,my curiosity for you to post,as I know the Salons are very well designed,and go full range.Maybe a little too much,but very nice.
Obviously room size and placement factor "Big Time" in ultimate performance(there is a limit to bass depth,anyway,and I am not of the ilk that must shatter plaster....I like the Kharma 3.2,for this reason).
From the new pictures,you posted of your Mini set-up,I must assume you have "MAXI" sound!
Btw,I have a dear friend,who is not as brave as you(in going for a Mini(not really)monitor.He has a speaker way too big,for his room,which is small,but he can't digest the "Mini Monitor" word!His loss,as these(though the Ridgestreet Audios look WAY cool)would be perfection,in his room.To me there is NO matching a good sealed enclosure.Just my opinion.He,also runs a superb Rowland 8t,which would drive the Magico's to perfection,IMO!
Best!! |
Hi sirspeedy70680,
You are absolutely right. The Salon does everything well. The MM does most of the 'everything' EXTREMELY well. And you are absolutely correct aboud the suureal dynamics of the MM. If you look at the MM's woofer when it is playing music, you will see how much more it nees to move. I assume this has something to do with the sealed box design. Sealed box sounds 'so right'. I think our idea of bass is all a little twisted by the overwhelming number of ported designs on the market....
If you like the 3.2, the more reason you should listen to the MM. there was an indepth comparison between the 3.2 and MM, and the poster ended up buying the MM. |
oops forget me....i meant 5m not 5 ft...but still! |
BTW,Wslam...Though I have not heard your fine set-up,I'm willing to bet you have much better image specificity,and front to back depth.Something a speaker like the Mini should do in spades.As to the issue of ports....many folks really like alot of "Bass Pump"!In all due respect some folks prefer this to true accuracy,in the lower regions.That's a major reason I have kept,and LOVE my Avalon Ascents.Sealed box with fabulous detail,in bass/mid-bass.Yet,as I will downsize my room in about two to three years,it is nice to know therte is something out there for me!
Best! |
Hi again sirspeedy70680,
I know what you are saying. It is until the MM that I come to appreciate the sound of a sealed box over ported designs. Given two equally equally well designed sealed and ported designs, I think I will now always choose the sealed one.
Bass Pump is 'fun'. It's hard to complain you have too much bass. But to do any sort of critical listening, it should not be for one to detect the superior articulation of a sealed box. |
It was a real pleasure to have finally meet with Alon Wolf at a gathering organized by the HK dealer, Sound Chamber. Alon passed by HK after attending a Hi-Fi show in Japan. The gathering was small and two Magico setup were up and playing, including the familiar Audio Research Reference (610T) setup driving a pair of Magico Mini and the USD98k Model 6 setup driven by a Japanese preamp/amp setup, called "Ba labo" (http://www.ba-labo.com/). The preamp costs USD50k, and the amp costs USD70k.
Another friend of mine, also a MM owner, went to the gathering. We chatted briefly and listened to both the Model 6 and Mini setup. The Model 6 sounded very smooth and threw a huge soundstage. The sound is much fuller but remain very well mannered, very well proportioned, and ultimately, realistically balanced. There was none of the bloatedness so often found with larger speakers. The highs on the Model 6 sounded very different to my ears. It was a different rendering, very detailed, no edginess at all. But it sounded very different from the Mini's Super Revelator. Alon explained to me what kind of tweeter it was but I have already forgotten.
Due to another appointment, my friend and I left early, but decided to get together with Alon on Monday to lunch with him. I asked my other friend, also a MM owner (so together 3 MM owners) to join us as well.
We got more time to talk with Alon during lunch and we touched on various topics, from photography to, of course, speakers. He is very approachable and his 'attitude' towards 'sloppiness' is obvious. It is clear that Alon is a perfectionist and believes that speakers design need to be a 'science' first before an 'art' form. For example, he mentioned that speakers should not be thought of as instruments since the speakers cabinets, for example, must play a minimal role in the sound. His criticisms on many well known brands left me a deep impression, and his explainations on various design philosophies (such as ported vs sealed) also made some very convincing (and true imho) arguments. He explains to us the construction of the Mini, the parts he used etc. All truly impressive, and all because he wants to make them a statement 2 way loudspeaker.
Apparently, the whole Mini project started because of one of his audio-industry friends in Hong Kong requested him to make the best he could for a 2 way speakers for the HK market.
The three of us came back feeling really good that we bought the Mini. He did hint at us that some new products are on the horizon (I cannot imagine any company sitting on their butts not doing anything new), but more importantly, he reassured us that the Mini is a true statement product that will become a classic. The three of us (owners) have listened to a large range of speakers in the 22k range, and frankly, none of us could 'go back' to the mass produced sound. The Magico Mini are truly a class above and are excellent value. The high quality RAW parts used, the craftmanship, and ultimately, the sound quality, truly make them a classic 2 way design. |
Magico: biological minded speakers
Let me to explain how it started. It is well know that being a Dentist is in a blood of any Jewish boy and Alon Wolf was no exception. When he was little, the local kids teased that he might grow up without a dentist license and the little Alon was running away crying, begging in his tears God to send him something “dentistian”.
When the littlie Alon group up, he did not act in the medical fields but was working out of large White Vans, selling loudspeakers to the mid-age shopping malls visitors. Still, the unfulfilled dream of dentistry drilled Alon perception and Alon was desperately looking to do something about it.
Another day he was selling from his White Vans a speaker with asphalt-made drivers to a nice elderly woman who had a high pitch voice. When she picked the speaker up the asphalt-made drivers fallen out from the speakers and right on the tow of the old woman. The woman was in pain and was screaming like a wounded in ass hippopotamus only very high. She was screaming so loud and so high that windows in a nearby department store were crashed and pigeons were falling dead from sky, no just dead but already baked. Even the Alon himself was hurt. The loud high-pitch scream of that women boiled coffee in the Alon’s thermos, bent muffler in the Alon White Van and a shut out a gold filings from the Alon mouth…
Everyone went crazy then but the smart boy Alon took this event as a prodigious sign. He said if a loud high frequency pitch is capable to remove filings form my teeth then why should be a dentist to fulfill the obligation to my heritage? I might very much be a speaker builder and making some kind of loudspeakers that would inflict a long term dental consequences…
So, Alon Wolf filed in a new article of incorporation and become Doctor Wolf. Now, many years after the remarkable White Vans event the “Doctor Wolf of Magico, Incorporated” produce a wide range speaker of narrow application. Out reporter Anderson Cupper visited the Doctor Wolf’s office and asked him about the uniqueness of his products:
“Year after year the medical physicians treat us with the same bogus advice to brash our teeth.” - Doctor Wolf was explaining – but since my revolutionary devise entered market there is no needs to torture out gums anymore. I call my, the White-Van-incident-inspired invention – Magico, because it is a real magic.
Instead of sticking on out mouths the ugly brushes with that bizarre tasting toothpaste now my patients can just fill their mouth with any juice with heavy pulp. Then they need to play sounds via my Magico loudspeakers. The unique sound that my loudspeakers produce will induce the micro vibration of the juice’s pulp that provides very gentile but very efficient abrasive tension on the patient’s teeth. You might adjust the volume of my loudspeakers, affectively regulating the depth of the teeth whitening. In particular my methodology works well at the very high volumes. I have some patients who run my loudspeakers at 145dB and they not only had their teeth cleaned but also my speakers removed stones from their kidneys. My further clinical studiers suggest that when my loudspeakers reach 165dB they might be also affective to treat brain tumors, abort pregnancies and cure conscious suffering.”
“Oh, Doctor Wolf, this is a pure radical work in audio therapy. What underling principle your invention uses?”
“My invention is based on careful observation of nature of sound. I call the underling principle of my Magico system as: “Sonic Allergy Utilization”. Our human hearing is developed over millions years and we have within us a build up sense of harmonic appropriateness. When my loudspeakers deliver their own Special Sound to the patient’s ears then a patient hears severally twisted high frequency fundamentals with harmonic structure that is revolting to any mammals and practically it is emetic for humans.
As the reaction to Magico Sound a human body dives in deep micro-seizure of very high intensity that is not observable externally but strong enough to make for instance the juice’s dispersed pulp to micro vibrate.”
“This is truly remarkable, Alon, and how did not discover which frequencies and at which volumes should be sent to a human body in order to accomplish the desirable effect?”
“During the research phase I use a lot of lob animals, testing how they would react to my Magico Sound. I trued different species: mice, ruts, dogs, snakes, hyena but the biggest success I got when I received a fresh party of mature male vultures, adult male audio reviewers and female adolescent coyotes. Those species turned out to be incredibly useful for my experiments. Some of them become almost members of my little lab family. I remember then was one hyena that we affectionably called Johnny Wowlin because it produce a very distinctive “Wow” noise as it’s reaction to anything.
Anyhow, using those excremental animals I was able to learn how disgusting my speakers should be in order a patient were affected in desirable for me direction.
“Doctor Wolf, and the last question: your plans. What would be the next step for your great enterprise?”
“Currently my FDA and FCC and FRC approval are pending and after it will be through I see large spectra of application for my methodology. Nowdays it is only dentistry but in future it might be anything. It might be used for law enforcement to broadcast sound for low disobedient crowd in order the crowd instantaneously forgot why they all come together. Or it might be used across the nation for job interviews as test the candidate reaction to heavy stress condition. The application is really endless.” |
Did anyone hear the Model 6? I understand it won the 2007 Grand Prix award in Japan. Can the Model 6 be all that the mini is on a larger scale? |
Hi Dan,
I have listened to the Model 6! They are simply magically magico. Despite the heft, my first impression was how nicely proportioned (and correctly) they sound. No bloatedness in the bottom end. Midrange is so 'solid', rich, and the highs have such a 'full body' that the super revelator on the Mini simply cannot achieve.
They are, USD98k. It only seems to make sense for Magico to fill the gap between the 22k Mini and the 98k, sooner or mater. I am waiting. |
Thanks, I can wait to hear them. I also am waiting for something in between. It will only make sense for Magico to do so. |
Dan_haan,
Don't dismiss the Mini. The name and their sizes are truly misleading. |
Hi Dan,
To hear the model 6's do drums or Rock is truly a treat. There is a sense of speed in the low end that defies the size of the driver. Yet, at the same time, the high end is sweet and mid's are very dense and with great detail. In short - this speaker is balanced defined.
While the aesthetics aren't for everyone, these are "the last you'll ever need to buy" type of speakers. Love them or hate them, the Magico's (Mini and Model 6's) take build quality and execution to the extreme. Mr. Wolf's passion for excellence is undeniable ... in terms of both style and subtance. Looking forward to your observations when you get a chance to audition.
Cheers,
Garry |
Yes indeed, I have been following Mr Wolf “projects” with outmost attention. Being an Engineer myself, I find his approach to speaker building extremely refine and, for a change, scientifically minded. I hope to have the opportunity to hear the Model 6 soon. |
I have heard the MM twice at local dealer. Impressive for first 10 minutes or so. Fatiguing to the ears after that. HiFi-ish to the extreme. |
If uncolored, dynamic, linear, low distortion wide band sound fatigues you, then yes, the MM can be too much…
But seriously, I can not imagine a fatigue listening to a properly set up MM. Why don’t you tell us more about the setup you heard? |
haha. hifi-ish?! magico? ok. my experience is so different... I don't think we have any sort of common grounds to discuss! =)
we are too used to the distorted ported design. it is sometimes 'shocking' to hear something so truthful in its entire presentation! |
The local dealer use tube amplification. Still, to my ears, listening to MM is like listening to those XRCDs as opposed to vinyls. |
To Wslam: the MM is so "truthful" it makes recordings sound like they were recorded with a mike attached to every piece of instrument and a mike attached to the voice cord of each and every singer. fatiguing to the extreme after 10 minutes. |
Like I said, if resolution, clarity and proper imaging and placements are fatiguing, then yes, the MM will fatigue you. It is almost like walking in to the sunny outdoor after behind in the dark for too long. It will be too much for some time but who would want to go back to darkness? BTW, which tube amps were you listening to? |
I have heard quite a few superb speakers sound lousy,at times.Particularly in dealer showrooms,or Hi Fi shows.I doubt if the Magico Mini is anything other than superb,in a system owned by a well heeled,experienced music lover.
My own speakers(Classic,superb,and flawlessly maintained Avalon Ascent Mk II's),also a sealed box,and very hard to voice correctly,sounded like "dreck" when I auditioned them,at first.I am glad I took that session with a grain of salt.It amazes me how good these designs remain.Regardless of price.The Mini seems to me,to approach this level of "in a decade,or two,it will still be of heirloom standards"!!Room size not-with-standing.
I,now,have a dear friend leaning towards the Verity Ovations.He has a small,but good,room,with superb supporting equipment.I have mentioned he seriously consider the "Mini's",but he,like others,does not like the "M"(mini)word.I am willing to bet it is the more accurate transducer,to what is on the disc.No disrespect to the wonderful Ovations.Of course there are a "ton" of superb mini woofs(which take up little space),to blend the bottom most octaves.No need to go over the top with huge sub/monsters,these days of high tech stuff(some of which actually work).
I will assume he will be none the better off,as I'll bet this Mini will become a classic!
Best! |
Hey Sirspeedy, as one who has also owned Avalons (Eclipse, Eidolon, Eidolon Diamond), I also feel the same way about my new Ultimate Monitors. Like the MM's and the Ascents, they are a sealed box design although I suspect that their cabinet is somewhat more sophiticated than over the other designs. The MM's are more cutting edge in terms of driver selection although the UM's have made me aware that cabinet/crossover are of greater importance in the end result. Having not heard trhe MM's, I have nothing but respect for the work of Alon Wolf, as I also have for Charlie Hansen (the designer of the original Ascents) and Dr. Karl Schuemann (audiomachine; UM's). |
To sirspeedy70680@earthlink.net: probably a classic for the hearing impaired, who when they go to a live concert must always sit in the first row. |
the need to 'buy' in this shrinking hobby always outweighs the need to 'listen'. can't wait to see what mini model comes along next. |
I heard the system that was reviewed in TAS...the top of the line with individual amps for each driver. In a nutshell, they're the best I've ever heard at conveying the presence and sound of real instruments. Top to bottom they were simply amazing. Are they perfect? No. For what they do best though, they have no peer. It was easily the most revealing and accurate system I've ever heard. However, that system includes the custom room as well as the speakers, amps, active XOVR, etc. Not for the faint of heart. Also, as far as I know, these are the only ones with the active XOVR which makes such a difference.
This system has no relevance to the smaller speakers with single amps. It's simply engineered and implemented on another level. I would love to hear the Minis in the same room though for comparison! With out that we may never know.
I doubt this helps, but it certainly can't hurt.
Cheers! |
I actually like the fact that they named it 'Mini'! The understated nature of the word is meant to be deceiving and imho, comical. =) |
