Hall of Shame

Yeah, I been hit by them boys many many times over last 15 years. Recently due to my Car's blaring stereo, and with my long hair, I am a easy target. Although I have a real speakers(Dunlavy V'S)now at home, I used to say the same(" Oh, I already got great speakers") and smirk almost same way when I had $100.0/pair bought-at-clearance Sansui's and later $800.0/pair(yep paid full price and was proud of it)my Cerwin Vega AT-15 just 10 years ago. Boy Have I come a long way!

Actually, I've been hit up by these guys a number of times over the past 20 years- it's a never-ending scam. As for the van: if these speakers are any indication of their perception of quality, Earl Scheib did the champagne paint job.

Thank you, Sedond!
Hey, maybe the made enough money selling those speakers that they could afford to have the van painted??

KP

Vdub and Sedond that scam goes back some and it may have originated in the Sunshine State. I remember a pair of those guys trying that on me back in the late 70's in Orlando. The common elements are white vans, 2 young, enthusiastic guys, large, cheap vinyl clad particle board speakers with very cheap drivers at "bargain basement" prices. Price is very negotiable. "You can fool some of the people most of the time and that's all it takes baby".

vdub, i *have* to laugh!!! this *exact* thing happened to me just yesterday! *EXACTLY* the way ya describe it! :>) i was pumping gas, when this van pulls up; two guys lean out & say "we just finished this job & have some speakers left over, & the boss said to sell 'em for whatever we could get." i told 'em "sorry, i have a *real* stereo at home already... ;~)

oh, there was *one* thing different - the van was champagne metallic, not white - to look more profesional?!? it even had some bs sound-type company logo on it!!!

doug s.

Man! audiophilistine, damn why didn'y I come up with that?

My Hall of Shame nomination goes to the makers of those shit speakers they sell out of the back of white vans. You know, the "Omni" and "OmniTech" crap that they make in an industrial park in Elmhurst, Illinois (seriously!) and then pitch to you at gas stations and in parking lots. "Hey, dude- we just finished a big (convention, audio show, pick one) and these are left over and my boss said to take whatever we could get for them." Did you ever hear one of these masterpieces? Perfect for the audiophilistine!

makersmark & killerpiggie, twas *i* who mentioned the art d/io (yup, that's "io", not "10" - it stands for in-out, as the device is actually an adc as well as dac.) as a matter of fact, i even posted a thread about it, where more info can be had:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ymisc&1011197293&openfrom&15&4#15

also, do a search on the forums here for dio, or d/io. also search the audio asylum's digital forum for *lotsa* information...as a matter of fact, i ordered my d/io after reading *this* thread:

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1003098758&openfrom&2&4#2

regards to all, even those who are *wrong*! ;~)

doug s.

btw, my personal belief is that any decent $300 cd player will offer 95% of the best redbook cd has to offer, from what i think is basically a flawed medium - i'm w/ya on this, makersmark, really! :>) that said, i also believe a modded art di/o will get ya at least to 99.5% - why spend more? :>) for the 1st time, i can actually really enjoy redbook cd playback. but, i think a tubed preamp (or amp?) is really a requisite to make cd's listenable...

Makersmark, my error, I though you had info on the thingie in question. After further review... I see you and I share the same curiosity!

My request for information, then, is more properly directed at Sedond.

Oh, and I did not mean to imply that by allowing others to express themselves you validate their opinion! There is no greater freedom in life than free expresion! Without this right, all other rights become meaningless.

KP

Hey Killer, interesting Poly Sci thing you got goin' there, I myself see this place as more the Hobbsian "state of nature" sort of thing. It's lawless and leans tword anarcy. Kill or be killed.
The very anononimity here leads to people to try to be something they aren't. Some her know what the hell they are talking about. Some here want to be "athority" figures.Some are just misfits and malcontents,while still others want to impress us with their flowery "ivory tower" verbosity. ok. It's as if they can have some sort of vicarious life here as the audio superhero defending us against all of these god awful products. It's just if you say something that you know full well is loaded you better expect someone to call you on it and don't whine if someone roughs you up a bit for it. You asked for it. I got fired from a job because of the first Sony CD player. I hated those things for years. I didn't buy a player until 3 years ago. But I kept an open mind.I found one I love. But I am sure Makersmark you have herd it and found it to be of no value. I must not have had my hearing aids turned on. Once again here is another example of condeming "all" of a class of product.(my peve if you haven't guessed by now) So Makersmark you have listened and carefuly considered the performance first hand under controlled conditions of every CD player costing over $75. Wow you are my audio Green Lantern. Sorry to offend you but the statement you made is foolish at best. I play rough with the slow kids sometimes but it is for their own good. Tough love, Right? And buy the way get yourself some 15 year old Rip Van Winkel bourbon and give it a try, you might enjoy it. I like it best but I don't say "all" other bourbons are worthy of "shame" when I have not tried them "all".

Killerpiglet I wholeheartedly agree with you. Everyone does have the right to express their opinion. Anyone can totally disagree with opinions expressed by others. I don't think I said that by allowing someone to express their opinion you blindly validate it. If you disagree with someone simply state your opinion. Just don't resort to childish namecalling and personal attacks. There is no need to try to hurt someone just because they have a different opinion than you have.
People this is just stereo equipment we're talking about. It's used for entertainment. You know to have fun. Entertain. Loosen up, take a perspective pill.
Actually maxgain I was gonna say $50; because that is all I would pay for a CD player. Maybe if killerpiglet could tell me more about the d/io thingie I might consider spending more. Chill my bruthers. It's all good.

No one has any obligation to respect another's point of view, just an absolute obligation to respect another's RIGHT to hold a such a point of view.

This is the great pitfall of 'politcal correctness.'
Political correctness be damned, Constitutional correctness is what matters. PC weakens the First Amendment, by blindly validating the substance of opinions, and forcing the censoring of dissenting view.

Having said that, Makersmark, can you point me towards some reviews of thsi d/io thingie? I am curious.

KP

I really have to hand it to ya Mozart2000. You sure know how to stir up people's passions. :) I guess one person's snake oil is another person's magic bullet. Now, as a certain android once said, "Please continue the petty bickering. I find it fascinating."

Wow, what a gas bag? you invited people to take shots at you and then you get defensive. $75 CD palyer, man. More like a Wild Turkey than Makers Mark.

Sedond I'm not familiar with the piece you're talking about . I'm definitely open minded about this Cd thing. I would love to hear a CD player that was moderately priced that sounded good. Is that the art d/io or d/10? Where can I find out more about it? Thanks for your help.

Not really. Anyone can express their opinion. But you don't have to express an opposing opinion by crucifying someone else for theirs or getting into an arguement with them.
I don't enjoy CD players. I'm also aware that many people love their CD players. I wish I did, it would make buying music much easier. I'm not going to argue with them and tell them they are idiot's for liking them. My daughter gets great joy out of her CD player. She hops around the house dancing and singing to her music and I couldn't be happier for her.
There is room enough for everybody and everybodies opinion. The more the merrier. Everybody is invited to the party. Lets have some fun and enjoy some music.

makersmark, i think you're *close* w/your comment about cd-players, but i'd up the ante to, say $200, mebbe a bit more if ya want a cd *changer*... of course, this is only accurate if you're using a modded art d/io dac, which will set you back $300-$500, depending on whether you can weild a soldering iron, or have to pay someone else to do the mods... ;~)

doug s.

If everyone followed your advice, Makersmark, (and I do not find fault with it in any way, respecting even your point of view w/re cd players), this website would wither away and die.

Just a thought.
Over whatever you have to do, even if it be very urgent and demands great care, I would not have you argue or be agitated. For rest assured, everything you do, be it great or small, is but one-eighth of the problem, whereas to keep one's state undisturbed even if thereby one should fail to accomplish the task, is the other seven-eighths. So if you are busy at some task and wish to do it perfectly, try to accomplish it- which as I said would be one-eighth of the problem, and at the same time to preserve your state unharmed-which constitutes seven-eighths. If however, in order to accomplish your task you would inevitably be carried away and harm yourself or another by arguing with him, you should not lose seven for the sake of preserving one-eighth.-Early Fathers from the Philokalia

Any CD player that cost more than $75.

sure, paul, there's room for folks who may agree w/some of esmeralda's views. but *all* of them? designers of low-efficiency speakers may have no use for lo-power tube amps, but, surely they have use for solid-state amps, both pure class-a, & class a/b? and horn speaker mfr's may not have room for solid/state amps, but surely they have room for lo-power set amps? and, everyone surely has their favorite pet-peeve *snake-oil* tweek, but does that mean it's *all* snake oil? just as surely: everyone also has their weird little tweaks that they *like* too... even john dunlavy, who insists that all wire more expensive than zipcord is snake oil, sells expensive wire. what does *that* mean?

again, i think there's a diference between taking exception to things ya may not like, based upon your experience, & categorically putting ALL class a/b amps, ALL expensive wire, ALL tube electronics, ALL vibration controlling devices, aLL etc, etc, etc into a *hall of shame*

regards, doug s.

Will, well said. Doug, are you saying there's no room here for audiophiles who agree with what Ezmeralda said? Taking a line from one of Maxgain's posts above, there are some "very bright and serious people out there who are innovators in this industry and dealers who care about their clientle" AND agree with almost everything Ezmeralda said. Designers/manufactureres of inefficient speakers who think tubes have no advantage over solid state amplifiers. Designers of amps and speakers who agree about the high-end wire point and isolation devices and tweaks, etc. Apparently some designers of Class A solid state amplifiers who agree about that point.

I have no opinion on most of those things, I just like what I have and lots of other stuff I don't have. But I do think that an argument can be made in support of everything Ezmeralda said, and that post did not warrant what has come after.

I don't see how anyone could think anything in this thread qualifies as "advice." Everything mentioned as overhyped overpriced or bad sounding has its fans. I wouldnt mention a single thing without fear of offending someone. What's the point?

will, ya have a point... *EXCEPT* for the small fact that ezmeralda rejects out of hand almost "ALL" of what the hi-end is all about. what's the point of that? what's he wasting his time (and ours?) here for?

ie: another big hobby of mine is cars. but, i don't like american ones. so, i do *not* frequent any american car sites, or participate in any forums about them. instead, i spend time on the alfa digest, & the pantera digest... sure, the subject of american (and other) cars comes up once in a while, but it's not the main scope of the forum. and very few folks are presumptuous enough to make blanket statements that they're *ALL* bad... and, if/when it (rarely) happens, even all us italian-car lovers give 'em a boatload of you-know-what, too. cuz there's room for everyone at the party. but does *everyone* mean also room for those like esmeralda, who seems to want to *stop* the party?

ymmv, doug s.

Will,This remindes me of the scene from Monty Python's "The Holy Grail", where the English knight comes upon the castle enhabited by the French. Well, Will, "I already got one". And this might be the point in the scene where I dump crap on "you English bed wetting types". "Now go away or I will taunt you a second time".

Maxgain, my friend, have a nice, tall iced latte and relax a bit. This is a hobby, not a quest for revealed divine truth. Esmeralda is just as entitled to strong opinions as you are and ought not become the target of your wrath for expressing them. It is sufficient to say that you disagree and let it go at that.

When I said that Esmy had the courage to say what many people feel, I was not expressing agreement with what was said. I meant--and I believe--that many a'philes have opinions concerning the worth of (you-fill-in) that they are reluctant to express openly. Why? Because people like you blast them off the face of the earth just for saying what they believe. Yet you reserve the right to say what YOU believe, and woe betide anyone who dares to disagree.

Do what works for you. Evaluate the way you want to evaluate. Buy what you want to buy. Don't worry so much about the minds of young listeners being polluted by opinions with which you disagree. Most newbies are quite capable of making their own decisions about what is wheat and what is chaff.

Virtually all of us who have been in this game for a long time have valuable expertise to share. That our opinions vary--even radically--is only to be expected. After all, if we all agreed on everything, 99.999% of vendors would go out of business....

I prescribe a good recording of the Barber Adagio for Strings. It has a marvelous calming effect.

Will

"All high performance cables.." this would include the Kimber pbj at $72 a pair, not hard to fit into a budget system. I assume you have auditioned these and found them to be a poor value or of no use at all? This would also include the Custom Power Cord Co. $129 "High Value" power cord. You might have to skip meals or panhandle to fit this one into your budget, but alas you have tried this too and found it to be "very little bang for the buck" or worse yet a rip off.
"All vibration control devices.." again this would include the $6 Vibrapod, which are very helpful under CD players or speakers, again not a megabuck item. It would also include Audio Research tube damper rings which are also quite inexpensive but can improve the performance of almost any tube component for about $20(I forgot,"most" all tube designs are worthy of scorn anyway), again I will asume that you have tried these products and found them of no benifit? I know of people who squander lots of cash upgrading components that say "cables make no difference" only to find out that their new(fill in the blank) sounds just as bad as the old one did,i.e. too bright, or too harsh,or whatever the complaint was. This is because the brightness,harshness, or hardness, or whatever came from their cables and not the component. The system does not have to cost a fortune to be able to hear very real improvments from items like these.
all 1 the whole quantity, substance, duration, amount,or degree of;2 collectivley, the whole amount or number of, as of individuals or particulars............... Opinions are like,hummmmmmmm? what was that?........everyone has one.

seandtaylor, perhaps i shouldn't speak for maxgain, but i'm sure his feelings closely mirror mine: you are sticking up for someone who, in condemning things he doesn't like about the hi-end, uses the word "ALL" an awful lot.

personally, i can only agree w/esmeralda's item #'s 6 & 10: w/item #6, specific components are named. whether or not one agrees w/the judgment of these specific components, is another matter - at least the item gives his feelings about specific product, & how he feels about it. as for item #10, i, too, hate compressed digital recordings. (don't much care for compressed analog recordings, either, for that matter!) :>) but, this doesn't mean *all* digital recordings are compressed.

ymmv, doug s.

ps - i'm sure esmeralda is correct about the shame of all the etc, etc, etc, in the high-end, too, eh? ;~)

Maxgain, I didn't label every single component as audio fraud. I pointed out that IN MY OPINION (which is surely what a post is?) certain aspects of hifi equipment give very little bang for the buck.

Please bear in mind that we all have differing frames of reference. We do not all wish to spend $20K or more on hifi hardware, and so it is important to remember that some of those "who come here to learn" are being fed misinformation if they are told that megabuck cables or $5000 CD players will give them value for money.

I reiterate that all posts are personal opinions based on ones own frame of reference (in my case a system of second hand equipment which cost a mere $2500 to put together, but which to me and all visitors to my house sounds fabulous).

Perhaps we should all be clearer to state our frame of reference so that readers can decide how applicable our information is to their decisions. However to desist from posting merely because I can find my "audio nirvana" at a reasonable price is misinformation to those seeking similar levels of performance to myself.

Seantaylor99 should I assume that your post is directed at me? Let me say that I won't post an "attack " until someone says something completely preposterous. So i can assume when a person says "all" of whatever sort of component or device is crap, that they have carefuly listened and considered the qualities of "all" of these products available. The point is that you are only impeding others who come here to learn. I personaly am imune to this sort of dogma since I am aware of how to get good sound and it won't hinder my system a bit, although it does pose a problem to people who might really belive you. And since it must take alot of time to "review" every single component that you and ezmerelda procede to label as audio fraud, I would assume that you may not get out much yourself. I have run into this for years, the "expert" oh brother! why don't you just start your own audio component company or better yet start your own Audio Journal, let's see what could we call such an interesting publication where they can't hear the difference or see the value in anything they can't or more to the point don't know how to measure , I've got it! "Stereo Review" have fun "Julian".

MIT: an absolute hall of FAME cable vendor. Even works with gawdawful tubes

Agree with Ezmerelda's points 1,6,7,8,9., based on my personal experience and preference.

Anyone notice that the "high end proponents" post personally attacking posts on the "don't waste your money" posters rather more frequently than the other way around. You guys need to loosen up and get out more.

sure, dave, the t2's work in your system cuz of those lousy paradigm speakers! ;~)

seriously, detlof's right in the fact that a few bad apples can spoil the bunch. sure did for ezmeralda11! ;~)

ezmeralda's definitely outta line in just about every category, imo. while there certainly are worthless product in each category, it does *not* mean that they're all bad. in fact, wasn't the point of this thread to name specific product that you feel *is* bad??? instead of just condemning the whole hi-end genre?

i bought a pair of bose 901's back in 1970. what did i know, snot-nosed li'l kid that i was? but, w/that *monster* pioneer 60wpc sx828, & that dual 1229, i was in heaven! that rig lasted me thru hi-school, college, and my 1st working years. i din't ditch those speakers until ~1987, & then, when auditioning comparably-priced speakers, i realized how truly awful they were. only thing that made 'em tolerable near the end, was that cheezy equalizer/spectrum analyzer i used 'em with, for maybe four years or so. to get flat frequency response, the eq controls looked kinda like a "w" - i figured it was the room. but, every room i put 'em in (i was moving a lot, in those days!), same shape on the eq. it really *did* make a big improvement to the 901's sound - who cared about phase anomalies introduced w/a cheap equalizer - like it mattered w/those 901's! ;~)

don't let some bad apples spoil *your* bunch,

doug s.

as far as MIT being on the 'hit list' again,I can only say, the T-2 bi-wire bettered the highly regarded Kimber 8TC and Harmonic Tech.Pro-11's in my system.
Just because a product doesnt sound 'good' in one system doesnt make 'em bad stuff.
closed minded,to say the very least.

Interesting how so many dislike MIT, maybe because of poor perceived value, like Bose products? So far as rolling off the highs, not the ones I've listened to. I think they're great in the right system. Hall of Shame Products? Any cable that comes in a dovetailed exotic wood box and retails for 10K plus. I won't name names, they know who they are :)

as far as paradigm reference speakers being on this 'hit list' I can only say, I have the 80's and love them.first time I've ever read such negative spew about this fine line of speakers.

Nice maxgain - fortunately when you spend some time in this forum and are looking for some good advice and credible opinions you recognize names that have proven to be credible. And it is usually the same cast of characters that Maxgain mentions in his post that love to come out and spout when a "best of" or "worst of" thread gets started. Well put maxgain!

Very well said Maxgain!!

Well spoken Maxgain, wished it were true of the entire comunity. But there are bad eggs in every good basket! Glad you mention Bruce Brisson, who is a very serious researcher and whose cables are often badmouthed in these pages. Why not add pioneers like Sid Smith, Saul Marantz and Nelson Pass to your list?

Right on, Maxgain!!

Bishopwill, you right me wrong. Welcome,welcome,welcome. Must be that little devil coming out of me.

People come here in need of advice, they may be new to this or just lack some small bit of experience. Others propose to be the protectors of the flock or the audio equivilant of the "morality police" to defend the sheep from the evil audio establishment who is bound and determined to rip them off. Those rotten dealers and criminal manufacturers. Yea right! The emperor has no clothes,eh? Bull#$@t! Oh yea, you who are of closed mind can sit there and say this crap, having no real experience or credibility. I for one was a retailer in the high end for more than ten years and am offended deeply by these assertions by kooks that the industry is just a bunch of snake oil salesmen that are out to fleece the unsuspecting public. There are some very bright and serious people out there who are innovators in this industry and dealers who care about their clientel, otherwise you would all be listening to shit made by milti-national corporations and sold by places like Wal-Mart who don't care about audiophiles and their sensitivities.Take the original Sony CD player for example.Talk about the emperor has no clothes, if it weren't for people like myself and a few others who stood up and cried foul when this junk was proclaimed to be "perfect sound",this is all you would have gotten. It is the small independent manufacturers and dealers who make this "hobby" possible. So when you make foolish claims or defend such claims, i.e. that all tube gear and all hi-end cables are only noteworthy enough to be in the"Hall of Shame" You are slandering the people who have made it possible to attain the level of musical reproduction that is possible today. You are attacking people like Bill Johnson of ARC,Bill Conrad and Lew Johnson, Ray Kimber,Bruce Brisson,.....these are people who have done something other than sit in a damn chat forum and dole out stupid and bad advice to the unsuspecting who come here to really learn how to get more enjoyment from their music. Again I will say that there many here that adress the questions and issues of the people asking for advice with good information based on experience. Unfortunatly there are those among us who should keep their uninformed oppinions to themselves!

But Brulee, that was my point exactly. Listen to what pleases YOU, using the equipment that pleases YOU, selected by the methods that satisfy YOU.

My first paragraph was occasioned by the many, many convos I've had over the years with ardent audiophiles who nonetheless, after sufficient liquid potation, acknowledged an absence of clothing from the emperor's tush....

I dunno if this was mentioned yet ( im sure it was ) but of course...

BOSE

I very much disagree with Bishopwill's 1st paragraph. I totally agree with everything that Maxgain stated. It doesn't take guts to give an opinion. What I think is not important. What is important is to find out for yourself what will satisfy YOU. I applaud you Maxgain for your guts and excellent post. BTW Maxgain, I wish I could spell as well as you.

I think Esmeralda has had the guts to write what lots of folks here really think and dare not say--although a bit more extreme than my own views on the subject. But, hey, folks, this is a hobby.

Personally, I advocate DBX evaluation but if that isn't your thing, then do it your way. If you are persuaded that you hear a difference when you elevate your cables on little truss bridges, then elevate away and let no one be the naysayer. We do this for fun, right?

Paradigm 'Reference' speakers are the worst speakers I have heard in thier price range. I don't get the raves. I prefer the DM302s to the Studio 20s.

I think that Suretyguy's comments are right on target. There is no question that the law of diminishing returns operates on, perhaps, its highest level in the world of high-end audio. That said, I fall into the camp that has spent way too much on my system (although the end result has been spectacular). I have no doubt that I could have achieved "respectable" performance at a small fraction of the cost, but, when you're hooked, your hooked. BTW, I also agree with his point that one's ability to afford the gear can often color one's judgement in assessing its performance.

Rather than get into specifics, I simply want to say that when the aggregate cost of an entire system, regardless of brand, design, basis, etc., exceeds something in the area of $10,000, I begin to lose interest, because after that (admittedly arbitrary) price point, the law of diminishing returns seems to set in big time. This does NOT mean, however, that anything above that level is bad-frankly I haven't heard a truly bad piece of equipment in years-but that bang-for-the-buck reduces quickly. (I can't help but wonder how much some of the vehemence on this thread results from the knowledge that the various posters with such strong feelings can't afford the stuff they trash.)

That having been said I don't see why those with the means shouldn't indulge in Pipe Dreams, Wilson, Levinson, Krell, etc., for the same reason that some people will buy a Ferrari rather than a VW, even though the latter will accomplish the same basic objective, i.e., get one from Point A to Point B. Assuming, of course, that the item(s) are purchased as a deliberate, well considered, intelligent and informed choice-or maybe not if you have enough money!

I do also agree with Ezmeralda except all-tube(I realy love all-tube recorded music back there).

Why is so much of the advise in this forum worse than my spelling? Many of the contribuors here belong in the hall of shame! So many nay sayers and philastines. I do see that there are a few careful listeners with genuine and helpful info here but the rest seem to think that they need to have something bad to say about so many products(based on the fact that they can't hear it,don't know how to measure it or don't "beleive" in it, and probably never herd it at all or not under controlled cercumstances), perhaps to show that they are descerning"critics". These are the same people that in a different time would have been the "critics" that refered to the Expresionist painters animals and paned their work as trash. I applaud the open minded few that give out genuinely helpful advice. The rest I am sure are hopelessly condemened to a hell of listening to their own horrid(and I am sure very thin,edgy,and bright) systems. As it should be!