Thank you Ig316b. I have considered trying out JPlay. I will definitely do that in the near future. Right now I am running Windows 7 and have used the Fidelizer app to optimize the OS. I must say, I am very happy with the sound and am looking forward to building a proper music PC with a better USB implementation. |
Tboooe
While browsing thru the forum I found your thread and started reading, since you already have a couple HTPC's and have found the joy of using JRiver and JRemote I thought you might enjoy reading thru another way of implementing your HTPC's.
Have a look at JPlay (http://jplay.eu/download/ ) it made a huge improvement on the playback and you can try it for free.
While you are there read through the manual about how to use the streamer mode. And then if you want to dive deeper into setting up your computer, read through the computer audio section of the forum at the Windows Server 2012 or Windows 8 Optimization threads (http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/ ). You will be surprised just how good computer audio can be. |
Just an update...I decided to retask an HTPC I had laying around which is very close to specs of the CAPS Carbon server aside from the USB card. Using Jriver and Jremote on my iPad and streaming music wireless via the optical output from the mobo to my Dac, the sound is much better than Sonos. I can hear more micro details and the overall soundstage envelopes the room more. What I especially like is the ability to rate songs and have smart playlists, features that I always wished Sonos had. Needless to say I will be ditching the Sonos and moving on with building a SOTA CAPS server. This is going to be fun! |
Confirmed - cat7 network cables didn't improve playback on my setup...
NAS ->cat7 -> router ->cat7 -> iMac + Audirvana -> USB -> DAC
Your result is not surprising. Me changing Ethernet is equivalent to you changing USB. Next - upgrade the router :-) Why if Audirvana caches the track before play? You should not hear any improvements changing anything before your iMac. Now if the DAC caches, one should not hear any differences changing anything before it. Not even a belt driven transport. If you build them, they will come. LOL!!! |
Confirmed - cat7 network cables didn't improve playback on my setup...
NAS ->cat7 -> router ->cat7 -> iMac + Audirvana -> USB -> DAC
But access to the NAS drive has improved a little - better cables fewer resent packets probably
BTW the USB cable is from DH Labs and performs extremely well.
Next - upgrade the router :-) |
the cable between the iMac and the DAC will make a difference - In my case that is a USB cable OK, I thought you use ethernet between computer and DAC. Even though my DAC has asychronized USB, I much prefer ethernet and who wants a PC in their system rack. LOL!!! |
Knghifi - agreed - the cable between the iMac and the DAC will make a difference - In my case that is a USB cable
Audirvana is a program that runs on my computer (the client) and buffers a complete track into computer memory prior to passing that data onto the DAC via the USB cable
The cables between my computer and my NAS drive (the server) will have no effect on playback because each track is bufferred on the client
But it never hurts to have a faster network :-) |
but since Audirvana buffers a complete track (i.e. when playing from a hard drive) it should have no impact on playback. Disagree! Buffering on the server side has nothing to do with transmission to the client ... synchronization is still required during playback between both parties. IE: IC between components, SC between amp and speakers. All cables sound different. Now if the Dac buffers everything before play, then cables should not make a difference. Synchronization is broken and Dac just process data in it's own buffer. |
Knghifi - the cable should improve the transmission time because of its bandwidth capability, but since Audirvana buffers a complete track (i.e. when playing from a hard drive) it should have no impact on playback.
But I will reserve final judgement until my cables arrive - ordered them yesterday :-) |
Kriskdf - thanks for the link - great article that contains some interesting point to observe when running network cables.
Also explains why local computer stores had never heard of CAT7 - i.e. rarely used in north america |
I just ran across this, which actually seems to cover things I forgot: http://www.lanshack.com/cat5e-tutorial.aspx
It looks like about 1" radius is the minimum. The article is pretty good and points out that the faster you want the network, the more you need to pay attention to the standard for install. There are also good practices called out that may impact performance less, but helps long term maintenance (labeling, leaving a service loop and lots of slack, etc.). |
Basically it's a media player that can be standalone or integrate with iTunes Then AQ ethernet cable will definitely make a difference. I thought audirvana was a DAC with a big buffer. |
kriskdf - your comment " Things like minimum radius bends "
Happen to know what that minimum radius is?
Tighter than a 3.5" radius by any chance?
That's about the gap in my wall space for the outlets - the rest is fairly straight runs or a much larger radius.
Thanks |
knghifi - yes, Apple only I'm afraid
But maybe there's a Linux version - contact Damien at contact@audirvana.com
He is very responsive
Also see http://audirvana.com/ for a full description
Basically it's a media player that can be standalone or integrate with iTunes |
I should have emphasized "properly installed". :) Poorly installed cat 7 may be insufficient for what you want. I've actually had some limited training on cable installation (though, i'm admittedly no pro) and to get cat 5e *certified* for gigabit, there are a lot of details in the installation process that if missed, can limit the network speed. Things like minimum radius bends in the cabling and termination techniques can take gigabit capable and reduce it down to something much lower.
I'm not against future proofing either. If money was no object, I'd run "fiber to the desktop" in my house. I've also spec'd out cable installed for network and phone and had people look at me funny when I asked for cat5e for phones. Cat3 was the norm for phones, but we wanted to be able to easily convert to VOIP or network if needed in the future.
If you do ever get up to 10 gigabit going, i'll be impressed and a little jealous. :) |
Williewonka, I'm a Linux and Windows guy. Didn't find much info on Audirvana.
Is Audirvana a program that runs on a Mac, read and cache the data and sends it to a DAC? Basically a music server? |
Kriskdf - on paper, cat5/6 should suffice, but once the real world kicks in there can be many factors, such as noisy environments, poorly installed connectors, noise from the WWW and quite often these days - crappy quality network cable, that can effect performance.
Cable ratings are supposed to protect against crappy cable, but there are so many cables out there from less than reputable manufacturers, that would fail the test they are supposedly rated at.
Purchasing quality cables goes a long way to ensuring the rated throughput is attained, but I think stepping up to cat7 as well will "future-proof" my system.
For a little while at least :-) |
Knghifi - Audirvana pre-fetches the next track whilst the current track is playing, based on what is selected as the next track.
Which track is next depends on the order the listener has selected - e.g. by album, genre, artist,composer, or whatever is in the stream from an internet radio station. I can go through my entire collection automatically if desired :-)
In my system playback sequence is controlled by iTunes. Audirvana simply deals with playback and simultaneous retrieval of the next track - simple, elegant and very effective and no dropouts due to networking issues.
There is a very small lag (1-2 seconds) on the very first track in a newly selected sequence - e.g. selecting a new album , playlist, genre, etc, while the very first track is loaded into memory, but after that everything plays with only the user defined inter-track delay.
So there is really no need to load an entire album, which on some systems might prove to be detrimental.
Still going to get the cat7 though - if it only makes my network more efficient I'll be happy - getting better sound - that would be the icing on the cake!
:-) |
Properly installed cat5e or cat6 should be more than sufficient for streaming audio on a local network. Cat5e *properly installed* is rated for gigabit speed. Cat5e, slightly sub-optimal, should get you 100 megabit, which should also be good enough for streaming audio without buffering issues. |
Knghifi - not everything - I've found Home Depot MDF is good for shelves :-) Good point :-) It would be nice to now how the various streaming devices actually stream data, then the impact of good network cables would be easier to assess.
For instance, when I was using the Apple TV to stream it seemed anything I tried improved the sonic quality - even upgrading the power cord to a Furutech on the Apple TV made a real sonic improvement. Like audio cables, just trust your ears and don't think too hard. Well, that's what I do when dealing in this stupid hobby. Since switching to the iMac and Audirvana Plus, which loads the entire track into memory, I found that having the same Furutech power cable on the iMac did not make any difference to sonic quality once I removed it. I'm not surprise. The operation has changed to asychronize. With whole track in memory, DAC just process data in memory and doesn't care if the data was loaded from the cloud, computer, transport with Home Depot PC ... I received an email from Damien of Audirvana and he says, for streaming content directly from the web e.g. radio, it loads several seconds of a track before it starts playing and by the time that 5 seconds has finished playing the rest of the track has been buffered in computer memory - and by the time that track has finished playing the next track is buffered and ready to play - and so on. This is similar to what Adobe flash player does. It wants to buffer enough data so when plays begin to avoid interruptions. Next time you talk to damien, ask if he tried loading whole disc in memory before play and compare sound quality. Only down side is lag time before play begins. He can make it an option to load track or whole disc before play. So I am thinking that since Audirvana buffers so much data, upgrading network cables might not be as beneficial in my setup as it is in your own.
But since the upgrade to cat7 is relatively inexpensive and the fact I will have to do it at some point in time - I'll give it a whirl - what the heck:-) You'll probably correct so buy the less expensive AQ Forest. Everything is system dependent. In my system, this is one of the best ROI tweaks. I have to check out Audirvana next so thanks for the tip. |
Knghifi - not everything - I've found Home Depot MDF is good for shelves :-)
It would be nice to now how the various streaming devices actually stream data, then the impact of good network cables would be easier to assess.
For instance, when I was using the Apple TV to stream it seemed anything I tried improved the sonic quality - even upgrading the power cord to a Furutech on the Apple TV made a real sonic improvement.
Since switching to the iMac and Audirvana Plus, which loads the entire track into memory, I found that having the same Furutech power cable on the iMac did not make any difference to sonic quality once I removed it.
I received an email from Damien of Audirvana and he says, for streaming content directly from the web e.g. radio, it loads several seconds of a track before it starts playing and by the time that 5 seconds has finished playing the rest of the track has been buffered in computer memory - and by the time that track has finished playing the next track is buffered and ready to play - and so on.
He also believes cat5e will suffice for most music when using Audirvana.
So I am thinking that since Audirvana buffers so much data, upgrading network cables might not be as beneficial in my setup as it is in your own.
But since the upgrade to cat7 is relatively inexpensive and the fact I will have to do it at some point in time - I'll give it a whirl - what the heck:-)
Will keep you posted. |
Vicdamone, Thanks for the tip.
Williewonka, old are Cat5. New according to AQ website, Cat7, 300 MHz??. There's enough bandwidth in Cat5 100 MHz so don't think bandwidth is why AQ is superior. I'm only running AQ from router to DAC.
My setup is very very simple. Music store internal hard drive. Running PS Audio or Logitech Media Server (can never get JRiver to sound good on my machines) on my computer. Use Lyric app on iphone for control.
I have a modest level system but high enough resolution where I can easily detect direction of a fuse. Every parameter improved, detail, resolution ... but most obvious is 3D, better separation between images in soundstage where I'm hearing new things in familiar recordings, some hi-rez no longer sound light weight ... just PRAT.
I had whole family over last night and they couldn't believe all I changed was a stupid Ethernet cable.
I don't know your system but only way to know is to HEAR it in your system.
For an audiophile, removing anything from Home Depot is always a good thing. LOL!!! |
Kgnhifi - do you happen to know the rating of both new and old cables?
Are the old ones cat5 or cat6
Alternately what is the tested bandwidth of both old and new cables
Knowing this will help me determine the kind of improvement I might be able to attain.
Also - what software/hardware are you using to stream to the dac
Many thanks |
Had a chance to think about LAN cables and where a quality cable might make a difference....
Basically, anything connected to a router/computer is subject to sending data that is checked for data errors - if an error is detected the data is re-sent until it is correct - that's the way computers ensure that a vital bit is not dropped, which might cause a spreadsheet to display incorrect numbers.
The only place that data is not verified is in the link between the streaming device and the DAC - that's where I found good cables definately make a difference.
HOWEVER - there would be a case for good quality LAN cables if you are experiencing breaks in your music, which might be an indication that the error rate in your network is severe enough that the re-transmission of data causes a time lag that is long enough to interfere with the reconstruction of the audio signal.
If your streaming device does not have sufficient buffering capability then bad cables will certainly highlight the problem with more frequent breaks in the audio signal.
Vicadamone - thanks for the link - I think this is worth investigating, if only to see if it makes my NAS drive will respond quicker. |
Knghifi
http://meicord.de/index.php?id=82&L=3 |
Williewonka, my AQ Cinnamon ethernet cables have ~24 hrs and the improvement is DRAMATIC over generic cable. I took MF advice and bought middle grade. It cost me < $300 for 3 cables from Audio Advisor so very inexpensive experiment. :-):-) |
I can confirm knghifi's findings re: wireless and wired...
First - the wired does not suffer from breaks in the stream - my wireless was bad for that - too many other routers in the neighbourhood according to apple support.
Second, the wired is much smoother in the highs like violins and sibilance
Don't forget - if the dac is missing a sample - it will try to insert the next best interpolated value based on valid adjacent samples. Only when too many adjacent samples are missing will a break in the audio signal occur. Somewhere between an audible break and a perfect stream you have a dac creating an audio signal that contains distortion.
High frequencies are more difficult to rebuild because there are fewer samples at high frequencies - e.g. on a 44Khz sample source, if you miss 2 samples you cannot rebuild a 20kHz audio signal perfectly.
I noticed a significant improvement in the violins on every orchestral piece I have.
Not only does it sound smoother, but the placement of instruments in the sound stages became much more precise and spacious
Your cables contribute to streaming issues also - I have tried a few optical and USB cables and found that DH Labs provide the best quality to date - so I can see why rolling quality network cables may also prove beneficial - although, if they also suffered from poor tranmission then it might take me several attempts to send this note, so I'm not sold on this right now, but when I have time to investigate it might bring some more enlightenment :-) |
Let's try Michael Fremer interview link again.
Michael Fremer Interview
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/analogplanet-editor-appears-scott-wikinsons-home-theater-geeks-podcast-0 |
There are several Servers that would fill your needs. The W4S units, Sonore, Resoulution Audio,Bryston.. these are all stand alone, with a seperate DAC needed.. I use a PS Audio PWD MKII, and either a Cullen Modded Sonos, or The PS Audio Bridge.. The Bridge sounds great but is a bit wonky.. |
Tboooe,
With wireless, sounds like something is missing, not as continuous, coherent, and vivid. In theory if the buffer is big enough, it shouldn't be a problem, but ...
IE: Watching a video in a browser, flash player buffers data to avoid interruption when play begins. When buffer runs out whether slow server, bad connection ... , play stops and re-buffers before start again.
Take it one step further, if buffers whole track or cd before play, essentially changed loading data into memory from a synchronize to asynchronize operation which is much simpler to implement. No need for over priced transports, external clocks ... Abstract out the interface and only requirement is loading data before play.
Got my AQ ethernet cable and it's a major improvement over HD cable. Similar going from wireless to wired +1.
Michael Fremer interview . |
Knghifi, you mention the sound quality is better wired vs wireless. Can you please describe the differences you hear? |
knghifi - GET OUTTA HERE!!! Rolling ethernet cables - really? :-) Every cable in my system makes a DIFFERENCE, why NOT ethernet? Hopefully they will arrive next week ... I saw Michael Fremer's Newport Show interview where he mentioned AQ ethernet cable demo. Hard wired much superior to wireless. AQ entry level ethernet cable much superior to generic brand. Couldn't hear a difference between AQ entry and best ethernet cable. The computer based ones were easier to assess and cheaper to implement - plus you can change interfaces pretty easily and as sample rates get better you can grow with them.
However - with computers you do have to do a fair bit of investigation and setup and there can be some setbacks along the way.
Having worked in computers for 39 years my choice was easy, but it's not for everyone
Boxed solutions are close to plug and play once connected to the network, so for some a boxed solution is preferable
There is clearly a market for both products and they both have similar performance capabilities - it's really a matter of which one suites the person using it
Luckily I understand computers so NO black box for me. I want the flexibility and don't want to deal with someone elses bugs and limitations. In order for a DAC/computer to play/process, data must be loaded into memory whether via transport or computer. The only difference is computers offers options in ripping and serving the data. Too many options are overwhelming for computer challenged unlike a transport just load the disc and hit play. I switched to computer audio 6+ yrs ago. I use Itune ripping cds to Apple Lossless and high rez to flac. Use Logitech Media Server or PS Audio Music Manager to serve the music to the DAC. IPhone to control the devices. There are zillions other ways now but this works for me so no reason to change unless to improve quality of sound. Will probably look into Apple mini server and running vm (virtual machine) next. Over the years I've made improvements by going hardwired from wireless, new computer configurd runnig only necessary services to save cpu cycles, copied all my music to computer internet hard drive ... now rolling ethernet cables. I believe computer audio has arrived years ago and it's only to get more confusing with more options/improvements ... not going to get easier. I suggest to get started, pick/install A ripping and serving software. Start simple, get it working and once gain knowledge, then experiment. |
jeffkad, thank you for the recommendation. I don't necessarily want a one box solution for convenience which could limit my flexibility. I actually don't mind having to rip my CDs on a separate pc. I've been doing it for 10 years so its like a routine I like. Besides, I don't want to over complicate my system with a one box solution that may be difficult/impossible to upgrade. With this is in mind I have decided to build a CAPS v3 Zuma. This will give me enough horsepower to also play around room correction software as well. |
Jeffkad - I took a look at a couple of those and it was difficult to assess just how good the interface was - even those with remote capability
The computer based ones were easier to assess and cheaper to implement - plus you can change interfaces pretty easily and as sample rates get better you can grow with them.
However - with computers you do have to do a fair bit of investigation and setup and there can be some setbacks along the way.
Having worked in computers for 39 years my choice was easy, but it's not for everyone
Boxed solutions are close to plug and play once connected to the network, so for some a boxed solution is preferable
There is clearly a market for both products and they both have similar performance capabilities - it's really a matter of which one suites the person using it |
What about the one box rip/store/playback solutions like those from Musica Pristina, Music Vault, Baetis, W4S, etc? They are all pre-configured and optimized for SQ (and do hi-res) but take different approaches in hardware/software to get there. This is what I will eventually do to replace my Sonos for critical listening (leaning towards the Musica Pristina myself). |
knghifi - GET OUTTA HERE!!! Rolling ethernet cables - really? :-)
I switched to wired way back - when the tech support at apple told me the solution to frequent breaks in wireless streaming was to convert EVERYTHING to MP3 - I'm not kidding - if I hadn't been so mad I would have LMAO :-)
I did find both optical and usb cables made a difference - problem with streaming - ya never know what got through, unlike copying files, where the computer ensures the file is error free
Thanks for the windows info - good to know |
Mapman - if you need any more info use the agon mail service
Cheers |
I have changed the settings to point to my NAS folder
You can change this in settings, but if you close iTunes, the next time you start it, it resets the library folder back to the default folder (at least on the iMac platform - another bloody wart) On Windows, I found it TRUE if the folder is on an external drive and external drive is not connected to the computer. |
08-08-13: Williewonka
One last thing - Audirvana loads the entire track into memory before playing,so there tends to be a slight delay on the HD tracks, but then you can use wireless without any dropouts while playing Interesting stuff Williewonka. I found wired is MUCH superior to wireless so will check out Audirvana. Currently rolling different ethernet cables. :-) |
Willie, thanks.
I have yet to see any computer audio solution without some warts. Maybe on Star Trek. SOmeday perhaps.... |
Mapman - take a look at iTunes help - there is a "Create new Version" which then asks which version type you want to create and lists the iPod - so that might take care of synching and conversion to MP3
ALSO - Apple puts files in a default library folder
I have changed the settings to point to my NAS folder
You can change this in settings, but if you close iTunes, the next time you start it, it resets the library folder back to the default folder (at least on the iMac platform - another bloody wart)
When you rename the folder is updates the library and then prompt you to copy the files - DO NOT SAY YES!
Once you get used to the warts it's pretty nice to use, but discovering all the warts is a PITA. |
Well, that is the thing with Apple. You have to live in their world. Many people are happy doing that (and perhaps paying a premium in some cases to live in a world managed for them) but I have never been a Apple kind of guy. I do like my daughters Ipod touch though when I use it, especially with some good quality matching earphones or buds (not made by Apple).
Will check out MAX. Thanks. |
Itunes does not like WAV - it's renamed my collection a couple of time - that's why I went to AIF - finally
Sounds like you have a better handle on it than I initially did :-)
It surprised me that MAX was able to set album and artist metadata when I just converted to mp4 - not sure why Apple has an issue, but then - they like to do things their way and not tell anyone why, or how to get around it - my biggest gripe with them actually.
if you can get the WAV to AIF or some other format Apple knows then importing is a doodle - you just import a folder using iTunes - File|Add to Library menu item |
Don't mean to hijack the thread. Willie, I can contact you via agon email to take this offline. I'd really like to crack the Itunes/Ipod/.wav nut already if possible. |
"WAV does not contain metedata so when you import tracks it puts them into the "Unknown Artist" folder and within that the "Unknown Album" folder - told you it had some warts."
Are/can the imported files be converted to mp3? My kids have Ipod/Iphone devices that I would like to be able to use my .wav music library with when we are away on vacation, at the pool, etc. |
Apple should really get on the ball and enable easy import of .wav from common sources like Windows MEdia Player to Itunes. Not sure why they have not. It would seem to be to their advantage to do so and it is technically feasible, aat least for certain common tools capable of producing .wav files, like Windows media Player. |
Actually, my .wav files do contain some metadata put there when ripped via Windows Media Player. Problem is that it is not truly standardized metadata tags, so its not always as usable as say FLAC, depending on system. ITs worked to date though with both older Roku and newer Squeezebox systems I have used so far. I think the basic CD identification info is there in a pretty standardized place (for .wav at least) so that seems to be enough to enable retagging later when needed, if implemented case by case.
I've also experimented with batch conveting to flac and having open source systems retag and seen that work as well.
Not so sure about Apple and .wav though. |
Oh crap! - you've hit the dreaded "iTunes WAV wart" right off the bat
WAV does not contain metedata so when you import tracks it puts them into the "Unknown Artist" folder and within that the "Unknown Album" folder - told you it had some warts.
HOWEVER - I just tried converting WAV to mp4 with MAX and it inserted metada into the mp4 file it created file - I then imported into iTunes and it worked! (I only used mp4 to seperate it from my aif files)
I would suggest you try with a single album first - just to test it out
iTunes can convert to mp3, it gets a little silly for some reason (another iTunes wart) - MAX might be a better choice and more direct
I convert CD's on import into iTunes to AIF - iTunes is smart enough to embed metadata at the time of import.
I know WAV was the CD standard, but it is old hat. AIF is also an industry standard and, dare I say it, as good as WAV (my opinion only - no debates please :-).
I know nothing of iPod synching - you are on your own with that one - sorry :-) |
IF the converted files could be retagged as needed in real time as well as part of the itunes load/ipod synch, that would be really nice. I do not expect that Itunes will be able to convert the .wav metadata, but hey, I'll wish for that too if it can be done. |
Willie, I have a large lossless .wav music server file library. Do you know an easy way to get itunes to pick the .wav files up and auto convert files to compressed format for synching with an Ipod? Can Itunes do the conversion needed on teh fly as part of teh synch? OR even if Itunes alone (or with some freeby third party Apple plugin or add on perhaps) could batch convert the .wav files up front prior, I could live with that.
Bottom line I would like to be able to synch my .wav files up to an ipod in compressed format with as few clicks as possible. How to do that?
Thanks. |
