Goldenear Triton One.R: Review LAB Tests: by KEITH HOWARD
We measured a minimum modulus of 2.9ohm and a minimum EPDR of 1.3ohm at 92Hz, with further dips to 1.6ohm at 219Hz and 2.0ohm at 584Hz.
So the One.R is a tough loudspeaker to drive, despite its powered bass section. No way could a 8w SET drive these OneR’s properly, it will work and "maybe" sound passable, but not what you would call driven properly especially in the mid bass/upper bass and lower mids to anywhere near it’s best potential. Cheers George |
For the record, I stated Sandy Gross uses an 8 watt SET amp driving his Triton References. The Triton One R was not invented yet in 2017 when I talked to Sandy at RMAF. I have no idea how a SET would drive the Triton One R speaker. |
I can tell you there is incredible synergy with a Luxman MQ-88uC and the Triton One.R's; Far more enjoyable than with Luxman L509x and a Rogue Cronus Magnum III;
The tweeters in the latest Tritons are super revealing and the triodes yields a match made in Valhalla.
Enjoy the Music!
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Hi mocean,
You did the right thing by trying your 20 watt solid state amplifier driving the Tritons and the outcome wasn’t satisfactory. One can rightly conclude that the Vista Audio Spark amplifier wasn’t a good match. However cakids had a Much better outcome. One could conclude that the Manley Stingray is much better suited for this speaker than the Vista. Both scenarios confirm the importance of listening.
Charles |
I do not have a SET amp to try but I do have the SS Vista Audio Spark, 20w @8ohms. With the right speakers (Fostex for me) this can be a beautiful sounding amp.
So I hooked it up to try out on my One.R’s in light of this low wattage discussion. Sounded nice up to about 65dB, 8ft away. After that the clipping was terrible and, obviously, the poor little fella got quite warm quickly.
The impedance dips clearly too much for the little Spark to handle.
That was a bit of fun but the Hegel H390 is my preference of 3 SS amps I have tried. Effortless sound at any level.
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cakids,
In your case George is putting the cart before the horse. You've done the ultimate test by using your Manley Stinray and finding "excellent " sound driving your Tritons. George hasn't done this and yet proclaims low powered tube amplifiers such as yours won't work well. So it is your own ears versus what he says the measurements will predict. Which of the two is more logical and reliable?
Do you now doubt what you've heard in your system? Educating yourself with regard to measurement interpretation is fine and useful to a degree. The opportunity to listen is even better. Does your listening experience correlate with his warnings? It doesn't appear that way to me.
Charles |
Georgehifi,
You are correct. I have limited technical understanding of EPDR. I understand that a loudspeaker is not a resistive load. It is reactive and the reactance varies with frequency, as the phase angle varies with frequency. And the phase angle is the sine wave angular offset between the voltage and the current waveforms at the given frequency. I have no idea how to calculate EPDR, however.
Nevertheless, using the data from KH, can I assume that the amplifier current draw at 92 Hz will be approximately equivalent to the current draw, for the same signal (voltage) level, into a purely resistive load of 1.30 ohms?Just trying to understand these measurements a little better. I think I have already determined how to select an amplifier for these particular loudspeakers.
Charles, George, and other contributors,
Thanks for your inputs. They were informative and useful. |
cakids OP
Measurements indicate that the impedance between the critical 80 to 200 hz range is between 4.1 and 5 ohms. Cakids, you need to understand measurements a little more, Keith Howard’s are the EPDR measurements (combined impedance and - phase angle) That the amp will see.
Goldenear Triton One.R: Review LAB Tests: by KEITH HOWARD
We measured a minimum modulus of 2.9ohm and a minimum EPDR of 1.3ohm at 92Hz, with further dips to 1.6ohm at 219Hz and 2.0ohm at 584Hz.
So the One.R is a tough loudspeaker to drive, despite its powered bass section. This is what the amp sees, not just the impedance, common stop going round in circles. Cheers George |
The supposition is not the reported test bench measurements of two published reviews. My use of the term refers to reaching a conclusion based on those measurements without the benefit of any listening experiences with speaker and amplifier to confirm an assumption (Lower power tube amplifiers are insufficient to drive the Tritons).
It makes little sense to ignore the listening accounts of cakids and those mentioned regarding Sandy Gross (who plays the 'mere' role as the Tritons designer and also owns a pair for personal use). Perhaps these are inconvenient data points. Anyway, certainly two different viewpoints presented in this thread.
Charles |
One caveat to my discussion:
My listening “test” was brief - just a few hours. Perhaps long term listening would lead to different conclusions. At any rate, were I to replace my ss amps with low power (not fleawatt) tube power amp(s), I would probably favore something greater than 25 watts, and would have to do some longer term listening with the new amp(s). |
Stereophile’s Nov 2019 review of the Triton One.r has a few differences from the Keith Howard review.
Measurements indicate that the impedance between the critical 80 to 200 hz range is between 4.1 and 5 ohms. And at the 80 Hz crossover approximately half the power is being delivered by the internal amp.
Speaker sensitivity is 92 db. So about 1/2 watt at 80 Hz should get you to that loudness level.
Manufacturer recommends amps that have a range of 20 watts to 650 watts.
From these measurements, the manufacturer recommendation, and my listening test, I have no qualms about using a high quality SET of at least that power level, that is spec’d for 4 ohm performance.
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Again George I don’t believe that anyone reading this thread will find it misleading or confusing. People can appreciate real listening encounters versus supposition. Supposition? the proof has been given by two reviews and two bench tests with graphs. These speakers load is way too hard for an 8w SET or low powered tube to drive from the bass 80hz up. who partners a 1200w lower bass amp with a 8w set bass/upper bass amp!!! And Keith Howard would not have stated this if it wasn’t just a supposition!! HiFi Review LAB Test: by KEITH HOWARD
We measured a minimum modulus of 2.9ohm and a minimum EPDR of 1.3ohm at 92Hz, with further dips to 1.6ohm at 219Hz and 2.0ohm at 584Hz.
So the One.R is a tough loudspeaker to drive, despite its powered bass section. To anyone thinking of buying theses speakers do your homework when buying an amp, or you’ll be a fool soon parted of his money if you believe these speakers can be driven to their best by low powered tube "flee" amps. Only this type of 25w "flee amp" will drive them, ones that can double their wattage all the way down to 2ohm. 25watt only into 8ohms, ML2 monoblocks from Mark Levinson https://www.hifido.co.jp/photo/05/504/50446/c.jpg
https://www.marklev.com/2013/04/ml-2-monophonic-class-power-amplifier.html
Cheers George |
Both are future possibilities, but I may be perfectly happy with the Upgraded SLP-05 and Pass XA60.5s.
Cary is backlogged. So the upgrade could take a few weeks. |
"Life can be good" indeed.
I believe that you will experience further improvement with insertion of the Cary SLP-5.
20 watt SET ? Are you considering parallel 300b SET or 845/211 tubes?
Charles |
I’m happy that my initial query on this thread, and the stimulating ensuing discussion has occurred. The experiment with the Stingray driving the Tritons has given me insight into future mods that I may choose for this system.
For now the Stingray is not available, as it is the heart of another system - one that sounds even better, btw. Were I to replace the ss amps in the Triton system, I would probably opt for SET tube amp(s) of at least 20 watts. Also, the Cary SLP-98P preamp is a temporary installation, and is soon to be replaced with my Cary SLP-05 that is currently being upgraded at the manufacturer. I don’t expect it to change the sound significantly though, as the 98P is excellent.
Life can be good.
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George,
To be very clear I am not disputing the very daunting speaker impedance measurements you have cited. Those numbers are factual, no argument. However the person who designed these speakers and is obviously responsible for their subsequent load characteristics nonetheless chooses to listen to them with his 8 watt SET.
He clearly enjoys what he’s hearing (With intimate knowledge of the speaker’s impedance behavior!). He also has a solid state amplifier but for his purposes prefers the SET for listening pleasure. I have to reasonably conclude that it sounds very good to him. However I acknowledge that this amp/speaker combination may not sound good to you. Just common sense as nothing pleases everyone.
In this circumstance I give more credence to someone who not only has heard this pairing but who created the speakers!!! Compared to some who hasn’t listened to it and is making a case solely on provided measurements. This is my only point.
Real world actual listening versus speculation based on reported measurements. Again George I don’t believe that anyone reading this thread will find it misleading or confusing. People can appreciate real listening encounters versus supposition.
Charles |
Here is what HIFI News reviewed and lab tested about these speakers, maybe now you'll realize that although the "8w SET made some nice sounds, they would have not been taken to perform at their best with an 8w set.
LAB: KEITH HOWARD
We measured a minimum modulus of 2.9ohm and a minimum EPDR of 1.3ohm at 92Hz, with further dips to 1.6ohm at 219Hz and 2.0ohm at 584Hz.
So the One.R is a tough loudspeaker to drive, despite its powered bass section. Cheers George |
Good point and perhaps Sandy Gross utilizes an 8 watt SET that has output transformers up to the task. After all these speakers are his creation. If anyone knows them it would be him.
We do know that the Manley Stingray in triode mode (20 watts) has no problem driving the Tritons per cakids account. So a robustly built 300b SET with high quality output transformers isn't an unimaginable stretch. It would be quite interesting to know more about Sandy's particular 8 watt SET. There is certainly a pecking order amongst the wide variety of these types of amplifiers in the marketplace.
Charles |
The Tritons need to be driven by your own amp from 80hz up to 400hz there's a lot of power asked from an amp in this mid bass upper bass to 200hz region and this is where Stereophile has given the impedance/phase loading that's well below 4ohms in conjunction with negative phase angle as well, this needs an amp that is more than a common 300b 8w SET can give.
Unless he has a purpose built special 8w set, that has 2ohm-4ohm output transformers with "low output impedance" and still able to give 8w.
Cheers George
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Jperry,
Thank you for your very kind comments. They are much appreciated.
George,
I don’t disagree with your comments, you do have to judge each speaker individually in its totality. All things considered load impedance and associated phase angles are factors that deserve consideration. It seems that Sandy Gross uses an 8 watt SET that suits ’his’ desires with the speaker ’he designed’ . Granted what satisfies him may not satisfy you.
You make my point in referencing the Wilson Alexa speaker. Very similar load impedance measurements, no doubt. Yet there’s more to that story.
As cakids rightly noted the built in powered subwoofer of the G.E. Triton is a significant variable. The Alexa lacks a powered subwoofer so one might expect a different outcome match with similar amplifiers chosen to drive them.
Certainly cakids experience using his Manley Stingray demonstrates excellent compatibility with the Triton. I did not extrapolate that this would be true for all challenging speaker load impedance scenarios, hardly. My main point is you have to listen in most (Not all) cases to get a true assessment.
An example of where listening wouldn’t be a necessity, my 8 watt 300b SET amplifier matched with the Wilson Alexa. On the other hand the Tritons might be worth a listening session. Again, the LM 805ia heard by jperry would definitely be a major contender with the Tritons in my opinion.
I don’t believe that folks reading this thread will have any problems making distinctions of the information discussed here.
Charles |
cakids OP This is what your 8w SET will be trying to drive. https://www.stereophile.com/images/1119GET1Rfig1.jpg The 1.5kw lower bass amp has nothing to do with this graph, as it’s just the passive part of the speaker your SET will have to drive, and it's up to you to decide if you'll get enough drive and volume for you listening. Cheers George |
I’m sure that having a built-in 1.5 kwatt amplifier is responsible for behavior very different from purely passive speakers. |
Charles does know his stuff and you like to give your opinion on things you have not heard based on measurements you did not make.
Have a great evening.
Jim Perry
georgehifiYou really know your stuff regarding SE amps and high efficiency speakers. This sort of statement can be very misleading, and be misleading to many that don't know better.
As the Wilson Alexia has nearly identical efficiency to these Goldenear's, Stereophile measured the Alexia at 91.2db, but they have a very nasty impedance v -phase angle load. Even a very powerfull push pull tube will have a very hard time driving it, as for a 8w S.E.T.!! no chance in ****.
So one needs to look at lot more than "just efficiency", and learn to read impedance vs -phase angle graphs, which is even more important than efficiency all it's good for is to give you an idea how "loud" to can go, not how good the driving sound quality will be.
Cheers George
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You really know your stuff regarding SE amps and high efficiency speakers.
This sort of statement can be very misleading, and be misleading to many that don't know better. As the Wilson Alexia has nearly identical efficiency to these Goldenear's, Stereophile measured the Alexia at 91.2db, but they have a very nasty impedance v -phase angle load. Even a very powerfull push pull tube will have a very hard time driving it, as for a 8w S.E.T.!! no chance in ****. So one needs to look at lot more than "just efficiency", and learn to read impedance vs -phase angle graphs, which is even more important than efficiency all it's good for is to give you an idea how "loud" to can go, not how good the driving sound quality will be. Cheers George |
Thanks for the comment Charles. I really appreciate it, all of your comments are always well thought out and considered. You really know your stuff regarding SE amps and high efficiency speakers.
Jperry,
Knowing that Sandy Gross and cakids are both very pleased with their respective tube amplifiers driving the G.E. Triton. I have no doubt whatsoever the Line Magnetic 805ia would sound "great" as you mentioned.300b as driver for the 805 output tube, nice!
Charles
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Jperry,
Knowing that Sandy Gross and cakids are both very pleased with their respective tube amplifiers driving the G.E. Triton. I have no doubt whatsoever the Line Magnetic 805ia would sound "great" as you mentioned.300b as driver for the 805 output tube, nice!
Charles |
@ CAKIDS, Your speaker are now bi-amp. (SS) amp on the woofers, tube amp on the tweeters. I think it is a great way to run speakers. I am glad your happy with the sound. |
I now believe that almost any amps will drive the Tritons, and that the low freqs will be handled well by the internal subwoofer amp.
The ultimate sound quality can be tweaked to your liking by choosing an appropriate preamp/amplifier. |
Hi cakids,
Thanks for posting your listening impressions. You can get dozens (Hundreds) of opinions on what will or won’t work based on this or that reason. Actually listening to the audio product in your own system is hands down the superior approach.
Given that Sandy Gross is very happy using an 8 watt SET amplifier, it isn’t completely surprising that you achieved excellent sound quality and natural tonality (A strength of good tube amps) using the Manley Sting Ray, I’m glad that you took the time to give it a try.
Very interesting and successful outcome for you in light of the challenging speaker impedance measurements provided by George. You really do have to listen as bench testing doesn’t yield the entire picture, just a partial perspective. Ironically the bass frequency region was a concern yet you report excellent bass results with both triode and Ultralinear modes of the Manley.
Charles |
Swapped the Manley Stingray into the system and did a couple of hours listening to three configurations driving the GE Triton One.Rs:
1. Stingray in Ultralinear (40 watts)
2. Stingray in Triode (20 watts)
3. Cary Audio SLP-98p Formula 1 mod with Pass Labs XA-60.5 monos, my normal set-up with the Tritons.
Listened to vinyl only. Initial impressions:
All 3 sounded excellent. Bass was identical in all 3 configs. 1 and 2 sounded slightly sweeter or more natural on voices, with 2 being slightly more pleasing.
In config 3, the sound was more evenly robust or full, but not quite as appealing/ natural on vocals.
Bottom line - low power tube amps can drive the Tritons easily, and quite nicely.
The sound quality differences, slight though they were, were probably due more to the character of tube/solid state vs the all tube integrated amp.
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@georgehifi,
When I was at the 2017 RMAF, in the Golden Ear Room, I talked at length to Sandy Gross and I mentioned tubes and the Triton References. He told me he uses an 8 watt SET in his home with the References. They have a 93.5 dB efficiency. He said he voiced the speakers with both the SET and an Airtight Tube Amp. He also used a SS amp but he never got into the specifics.
Sandy told me he likes to kick back in the evenings with a good bottle of wine and listen to music via the SET and the T Refs. If you read through the forums on the Golden Ear web site, the moderator in one of the conversations discusses Sandys preferences. I use a Mac MC302 on mine and 90% of the time, the meters hover between .3 watts and 3 watts and in my room, gives me a 88db spl. |
I have heard these driven by the Line Magnetic 805 integrated amp. A great match with great sound. |
cakids the designer of these speakers prefers 8 watt SET amps and this is obviously a reflection of his taste and how he hears/listens. Your listening biases may be similar to his or possibly quite different, who knows?
You have a good quality el 84 pentode push pull tube amplifier that's switchable between 20 (Triode) and 40 (Ultralinear) watts. Definitely exercise your curiosity and insert this amplifier into your system. I look forward to your impressions.
Charles |
Sandy Gross, the former designer/owner of Golden Ear uses a 8wpc SET amp on his GE Triton Reference speakers I’d love to read about this, couldn’t imagine a 8w set driving this kind of load from 80hz> very well all the upper bass grunt is needed from there to 200hz https://www.stereophile.com/images/118GETRfig1.jpg has anyone got a link to where was that printed up or is it just hearsay? Cheers George |
Good to know. If the designer can drive the References with 8 set watts, then anything should work. I’ll try tubes, just to see how it affeccts sound quality. Should be interesting, as the internal woofer amps use entirely different technology. Bass crossover issues, maybe? |
Sandy Gross, the former designer/owner of Golden Ear uses a 8wpc SET amp on his GE Triton Reference speakers and used that amp to help voice the speakers. I drive mine with a 300wpc SS amp. I find that the extra horsepower gives a more fuller and impactful sound. |
I have access to a Manley Stingray II in another system. Have been reluctant to move embeddd equipment around, but I may switch in the low power tube amp for a trial this weekend. I’ll report on the results. |
Goldenear Triton One.R - can it be driven with low power tube amp?
Don’t think so https://www.stereophile.com/images/1119GET1Rfig1.jpg Stereophile There is still a combination of 4 ohms and –48° at 100Hz, which will require a good 4 ohm–rated amplifier to drive the speaker to acceptably high levels.
And also not the new GoldenEar BRX (Bookshelf Reference X) if you want to hear the best from them, with EPDR loads at 135hz of 1.5ohms!!! and again at 60hz of 2.1ohms!! And even at 200hz still difficult. John Atkinson Stereophile bench tests.
(fig.1, solid trace) drops well below 8 ohms in the midrange and mid-treble region, with a minimum value of 3.24 ohms at 194Hz. There is also a combination of 5 ohms impedance magnitude with an electrical phase angle of –45° (dashed trace) at 120Hz
The BRX has minimum EPDRs of 2.15 ohms at 59Hz and 1.53 ohms at 135Hz, and the EPDR remains below 4 ohms in the midrange. This loudspeaker will work best with amplifiers that are comfortable driving loads below 4 ohms, which I suspect is why it proved a better match with the Parasound monoblocks
https://www.stereophile.com/images/820GEBRXfig1.jpg
Love to hear a pair with 2 x tall (80cm) fast motional feedback subs used as stands crossed over at around 60hz, they look the goods, in the bench tests for everything else, for a 2 way bookshelf. Cheers George |
Bass takes on the character of the amp even though they are powered. At least my Triton Ones did. High power ss sounded better to my ears. |
yep
92 db 1 w-m stated efficiency
worth a try
maybe not flea watt stuff, but a 10-15-20 w SET unit may be sweet and enough to get it to sing well |
