Tplavas, Thanks for your parting shot. Convoluted logic reins, and you mention "reasoned debate"?
DBT does not prove that no difference exists, only that the difference (if any) is beyond the sensitivity of DBT testing". Huh?
Again, when I hear about so many epiphany's, such as your cryo'd cord that "even I'd be able to hear a difference with" (and I'm the mocker?), which drop jaws, lift veils, and makes life worth living, then find convoluted ways to obfuscate the fact that often the only way someone could identify the latest world beater on a statistically relevent basis was when it had a 1,000 watt neon arrow blinking above it, the contention becomes rather thin.
It's not "beyond the sensitivity of DBT testing", it's beyond the sensitivity of the subject's ears to differentiate the difference, meaning the amount of perceived difference is not significant enough for someone to recognize at better than a guess level.
I never "degraded" Bryston in any way. It seems your intent is simply to mock those you disagree with, rather than have a reasoned debate, so I won't indulge you. As a parting shot, I'd just like to remind you that DBT does not prove that no difference exists, only that the difference (if any) is beyond the sensitivity of DBT testing. Enjoy the lights on your Bryston.
Aolmrdl - I completely agree with your suggestion.
I was just pointing out how respected manufacturers, with intelligent engineers and designers, who have produced esteemed products over decades of experience, and assumedly spend many hours and $ testing their products under varying conditions and environments, are quickly degraded if their conclusions don't match that of some hobbyist.
Again, I agree with you, and I was only pointing out what became reinforced soon after making the comment.
Snofun3,Or not, My suggestion to call the manufacturer was just that, "a-suggestion". Some times the use of a contact point can help you come to conclusions which will work best for you and your particular set-up and needs. Nothing in this hobby is written in stone as you seem to suggest in your responses. If I happen to find a piece of equipment that works for me I will purchase it, regardless of whether or not somebody thinks contrary to my opinion. Freedom of choice is good,so have at it...
Bryston's wrong, Pass (by association) is also wrong. Man, to be an Agon expert. Is there a test to take, or is it just a self-annointing thing?
Note also I wasn't indirectly advocating DBT, I was directly advocating it. Usually those who are most against it are the ones who have the most to lose in their proclamations and insecurities.
I bought the Bryston because I like the color of the lights.
Bryston states that they believe "filtering" power cords impact the 60hz AC current, therefore reducing the performance of their amplifiers, which implies that they do believe PC's make a difference, but that in their opinion it's a negative one. But since they don't specify what they consider to be a "filtering" power cord, it's a pretty meaningless statement. All cables "filter" based on their LC values. So either Bryston thinks that the LC values of their supplied PC's are ideal, or they're simply not making a thorough enough statement of their opinion for me to debate the facts. I could take two of Bryston's supplied AC cords, and cryo treat one, and even you could hear the difference, if you bothered to listen. So is Bryston wrong? In my opinion, absolutely. As for Pass Labs; I don't know what they have to say about PC's, and I doubt debating their opinion would change anything, so I won't bother. As for my comments about DBT testing of amps, I was simply referring to the fact that there are those that believe that any two similarly spec'd amps sound the same, and that DBT proves it. And since you're indirectly advocating DBT, I just thought you'd like to address the issue of why you bought a Bryston amp, when you could have bought a Crown pro amp with similar (or better) specs for far less money. Did you buy the Bryston because you believe it sounds better, or just for the warranty?
Bryston had a statement on their site indicating that if the cord was of adequate size and did not limit current, then, in their opinion, there was no point in using expensive aftermarket cords.
"DBT fails miserably at proving audible differences when comparing amps of similar design and power rating."
OK, that makes sense, and I agree. Then why do so many golden ears go all apoplectic when it's suggested that they couldn't identify their flavor-of-the-day epiphany (amps, cords, i/c's) via dbt? If itÂ’s that mind blowing, you reasonably have to believe it could be identified on a statistically consistent basis - yes?
"Imagining the superior sound....". I Don't know where you get this as I didn’t make any qualitative statements. It sounds good to me – I hope that’s OK with you.
Bryston indicates on their site that they do not recommend the use of aftermarket cords assuming that they are not too small to limit input current, which anything at a 10 gauge should satisfy. To me that's close enough to no difference.
"DBT fails miserably at proving audible differences when comparing amps of similar design and power rating."
Which makes sense. The funny thing is when we hear the golden ears talk about the latest mind blowers, yet recoil in horror when asked to identify it under dbt conditions. Funny, funny.
I don't know what you're trying to say in your last sentence. I'm not saying anything about my Bryston amp if you read my posts. I like it. That OK with you?
Bryston does not say "it won't make a difference" in reference to power cords. Also, DBT fails miserably at proving audible differences when comparing amps of similar design and power rating. Are you saying you're imagining the superior sound of your Bryston amp?
"give said manufacturer a call and ask them their thougts on power issues. After all, they should know what works best with what they build..."
And when the manufacturer says it won't make a difference such as Pass Labs and Bryston, we should immediately say they're imbeciles, don't have either ears or equipment suitable of adequate resolution, and smugly saunter off knowing that they're fools. Or not?
I use all Shunyata Research for my power requirements in my system and could not be happier with the end results...8*)... I would suggest that if anyone has issues or requirements with pc's or plc's for (any particular piece of equipment) that they may own, that, you give said manufacturer a call and ask them their thougts on power issues. After all, they should know what works best with what they build... Happy New Year...
My experience is, for amps you dont need power conditioner but for cdp and preamp is very important.PS audio 300 and less than $500 pc like the Audience VD nite and DCCA will probably work,IMS it works.
IMO, finding a PC that is tonally neutral and has powerful dynamics and clarity top-to-bottom is not easy. Most of the tonally neutral PC's I've tried are lacking in dynamics and/or clarity, while many of the more powerful sounding PC's seem to have serious colorations. Honestly, it wasn't until I started building my own PC's that I got a handle on what a neutral PC sounds like. With the huge number of possible combinations of conductor, geometry and terminations, the 'flavors' become a bit mind-numbing after awhile. I know I've personally auditioned 144 different combinations, and only about 10 percent seemed relatively neutral to my ears. Of course, my experience has also taught me that getting cable fanatics to agree on what exactly is 'neutral' is a pretty tough gig. :)
Awwww nuetrality. Are we talking of a power cord's tonal neutrality but which obliterates the 3-dimensional portrayal of instruments .... or can I get all this in a $100 (or even a $10) power cord too?
Hi Tvad, as a fellow Audiogoner, I have read many of your posts and you always seem to give very good advice in this insanity we call a hobby. I may be looking to purchase a new cdp soon. My system is currently a DK Signature integrated, all Acoustic Zen wire, Modwright Sony 999ES, Jolida JD 100 and Reimer Wind Rivers speakers- w/ Shunyata Hydra 2 and soon an Audio Magic Mini Stealth. I will soon be getting two dedicated lines and will be using hospital grade plugs (Leviton) -I currently have FIM 880's which I don't like.
Can you recommend a cdp that is great at the frequency extremes? (in other words crystalline highs, weight, heft and power in the low end (not lean), and one that you have heard perform in this manner in more than one system? I'm trying to find a cdp that can perform well in differing systems. (not one whose performance is highly system dependent) My price range is $3000-$3500 used. Thanks for your help. Emerson
Snofun - I have agree with you that if are dealing with clean A/C to start, and using a neutral PC, and still not satisfied - than you probably have a crappy PC, or somewhat insatiable...
-The question is then can you get a neutral PC for 100.00? and -Do some swear by expensive PCs because they help mask some other fundamental problem?
I've had 2000$ PCs before until one day I realized I had no clothes...
"sometimes you're paying for legitimate technology to actually filter out some of your A/C problems" - and what else are you filtering?
If you're considering paying big $ for cords, work on your AC delivery into the house first.
The ones who usually make the biggest noises about AC cords are the same ones who recoil in horror regarding dbt - golden ears and clothesless emperors just seem to go together.
How else could a 2 year old epiphany that cost $4500 and was a soundstaging wonder now be selling for less than $400? Has AC changed so much? Have power cords advanced so much? Please. A fool and his money.... - you know the verse.
Get clean AC into the house first, then a decent conditioner or regenerator. If a cord mkes that much difference then you have crappy power supplies in your components.
I'm looking at a APS model which has legitimate features like constant 120v, and runs off a battery (which takes the Power Company out of the equation) etc.
http://www.purepoweraps.com/pdf/USprices.pdf
I have modest $500 PC cables now, and figure that I could switch to 10g copper ones, with double sheilding and good connectors for about $100 each
Why not.. Im dealing with clean A/C output, so I figure that all I need is a neutral delivery system - your thoughts?
NB: Besides the "smoke and mirrors" aspect of some PCs, sometimes you're paying for legitimate technology to actually filter out some of your A/C problems..(which can can sometimes justify expensive cables) so why not a $100.00 nuetral cable for clean A/C applications?
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