for symphonic music
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Please read the OP carefully
CM does not require a HT effect Sub woofer.
This is what he is after, pure music, nothing less.
The only speaker I know that makes pure fidelity for CM is full range/high sens point source drivers.
I've been experimenting with various FR single point and have made this discovery.
THe OPer could not understand what the potential and limitations of these speakers were in real time.
He was asking the board to share their expiences of Point Source High Sens speakers.
There is no other speaker technology that will meet the demands voicing CM.
The music is rich, detailed, complex and demands a speaker that will meet these challenges head on with no fatigue.
Other drivers fall apart during the critical passages, and we are left with a mushy mess.
Not sure why there is no love for the new technology.
I find this a bit odd.
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mozartfan900 posts06-23-2021 6:19am"I could never live witha sub bass, grate my nerves,
I need ~~Musical bass~~, huge difference,...+
I wanted "musical" bass which is why I chose the Rel sub. |
I could never live witha sub bass, grate my nerves,
I need ~~Musical bass~~, huge difference,
Subs are wonderful for HT/Star Wars movie effects,
Of all the dumb things you repeatedly say, and the list is pretty long, this is right up there for the award as the dumbest. Congrats! |
Mozartfan,
we get it, you found the wholy grail of speakers while browsing youtube.
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$2500.00 get full range used Josephs or something similar.Good luck.
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Well thats what we are trying/attempting to define here.
*Full Range*
20hz- 20hz.
Who cares about 20 hz, 20k hz, I certainly do not.
The 20hz area holds zero interest, neither above 15khz.
There is so little of our music in that range which is a mute point.
Full range to me is midrange. Where 90%++ of our music is voiced.
My objective is how can i achieve the least distortion and most realistic soundstage = Presence, that i can possible afford.
Thus the only speaker for me out of the thousands of canadidates would be Point Source aka Full Range = High Sensitivity.
As I say the 20hz and 20hz is all baloney. |
I hope 20 years later the OP has figured it out. Hell, I hope the OP is still alive........... |
$2500.00 get full range used Josephs or something similar.Good luck. |
This allowed me to place the monitors for best imaging and the sub for best bass. Loved the Vandies but they just didn’t work well in a small room.
I could never live witha sub bass, grate my nerves,
I need ~~Musical bass~~, huge difference,
Subs are wonderful for HT/Star Wars movie effects,
Yeah a speaker with low distortion + a big soundstage will cause listening fatige for sure, Guaranted 100%.
You say *my beloved Vandersteens** but you also say I *can't stand listening fatigue*.
No one can.
Which is why we search, and search, experiment, test, research, til we find what we were always looking for.
I'm near the end of my rainbow,.
But back to the OP<
when jair says
Full Range.
are we to take that as a 3 way speaker, bass/midrange/tweeter or FR as in high sens point source??
See we need to define *full range* .
The older point source, Fostex, Lowther were really NOT true *Full Range* as some bass authority was missing along with some high roll off.
I will not know the ture potential of the newer point source drivers , until I get one in my system, Late September looks like.
My speaker quest has less to do with high fq's @ 12k-15k hz, as well as sub bass fq's , say 20hz-50hz.
I have both areas already covered.
My only concern now in speaker choice, is
midrange with true SHF.
.SHF = lowest distortion, near zero, = presence/soundtstage as reall as its going to get.
.
This SHF in the midrange has been around since 1929.
But then came along the commercialzied speakers with big inefficient magnets and power sucking distortion xovers.
We need to get back to 1929 technology. + Field Coil technology, A design far ahead of its time. Yet somehow fell through the cracks.
Seas/Scanspeak went down the wrong speaker path.
Both will not survive , unless they jump on board. I am afraid its too late, there are 3 labs which have a good solid foyndation and thus Seas /Scan will never catch up.
Both will go the way of the dinasaur.
You know new is not always better.
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I also have a small (11’ x 12’) listening space and replaced large floorstanders (Vandersteen 2CE) with standmount monitors (Kef LS50) and a small sub (Rel T/5i). This allowed me to place the monitors for best imaging and the sub for best bass. Loved the Vandies but they just didn’t work well in a small room. |
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Holy Thread Revival, Batman……….. |
You can make it work either way but its easier with a sub or subs (especially subs).
In most rooms you run into a problem with standing waves if the room has regular dimensions. This can cause a loss of bass at the listening chair- or maybe (less common) too much bass.
If you have speakers that go to 20Hz and you place them in the ideal spot for imagining and depth this is a very likely problem. I've run into it many times!
The big problem with subs is getting them to blend but if you make sure the sub is operating only below 80Hz it will be a cinch. If its operating over that frequency you may have to place it in the same vicinity as your main speakers; if it only operates below 80Hz it won't attract attention to itself and you can place it where its audible at the listening chair. The thing is that with one sub that placement might not be very convenient. And you could still have problems with standing waves.
An easier approach is to use multiple subs set up as a Distributed Bass Array (DBA). The idea is that since bass is omnidirectional below 80Hz, you can then feed them all the same signal and place them asymmetrically in the room, thus breaking up standing waves and getting evenly distributed bass. The advantage of this approach is that the main speakers no longer have to go down so deep. As long as they get to 50-60 Hz they harmonics of the bass notes will convince you that the note are coming from in front of you even though the fundamentals are coming from the side or even the rear of the room.
Audiokinesis has worked out an effective sub system called the Swarm which is compact, easy to set up and goes right flat to 20Hz.
This opens up the choice of speakers since there are many smaller highly resolved speakers that can handle 50Hz and above quite well- the only issue might be that the speaker behave well if it gets bass notes below its cutoff.
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For some people it doesn't work at all.
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A sub would grate on my nerves, a sub is HT only.
Now that Seas and Scanspeak has come out(past 2 years) with beefier midwoofers, a sub for musical bass is not necessary, for the diehards who demand the 20-30hz range.
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full range speakers or speakers + separate subwoofer,
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jair
could not figure this dilemma out, AT that time, no one had the imagination to play with these ideas of FR + Sub or regular box + sub Or etc etc.
jair knew FR may be the best option offering a rich, full , highly detailed midrange where 80%++ of our music lies withing this fq bandwidth.
But jair could not put the pieces of the puzzle together.
As I say, no one had yet worked out this equaltion before, Marrying FR with sub or sub + regular box things.
Well after I upgarded my Thors, I realized, *I'm lookin for more, something ain't right*
Then I started looking into **Point source aka Full Range**. After soending ,,ohhh about 60 hours research, I hit on **Voxativ**,
I was looking closely at davidlouis drivers on ebay, but again, i did not understand what a FR/PS is, how it works, how it sounds.
So is tarted a experiement of ordering various low priced drivers.
Little by little i started figuring how how these things work.
I dumped the new Millenniums and began using vaious Point Source as midrange/highs.
Then I started experiementing with higher sens tweets and hit on the Magnovox horn tweeter.
So little by little all these experiments have started paying off.
I now have bass with dual W18E001's, DL 4 inch as midrange and the Magnovox horn tweeter.
The DL 4 inch *full Range*, is ok, but it was only $200 and as the chinese seller says *you GET exactly what you pay for**. WEll we all know thats not true, Sometimes we pay alottttt more and get alotttt less.
Now i am saving for a real midrange which will voice classical music with highly detailed soundstage , with pure super high fidelity.
jair had some good ideas, its just that back in 2001, no one had even the slightest clue how to respond to his post.
fast forward 20 yrs later, There now exist designs which intergrate a hidden woofer in with the Full range /point source driver.
Most likely I will live with the W18E001's as bass.
But down the line after I pay off the Vox AC1A's, I'll save up and get the Seas Excel Graphene W22, I already have the xover. and sell off the 20 year old W18E001 at half price.
This is exactly what I am going to do, as the 2 pairs of W18E001's will fetch ,,ohh say, $400, the W22;s will run me $1G, so all I need to come up with is $600, and the AC1A;'s already have some wooffer punch.
Yep thats the golden combo.
Might keep the Magnovox horn, not sure, we will have to see how the AC1A response is on the highs.
I will roll off the W22 at 1200hz., this way keeps the energy flowing to work more as a pure bass woofer. Its sort of a waste cutting the W22 off at 1200hz, as the Titanium VC really offers stunning clarity, purity in the 1200 all the way up to 2500hz.
Its just that the AC1A has even a higher fidelity in that 1200-2500 range
There will be over lap in fq's from the lows through 1200hz.
But here's the thing.
the W22 is 86db sens, = acting more as a background bass woofer, sort of adding a subtility, a soft richness, a fullness so to speak, adding a punchiness which the AC1A can not perform on its own.
I should have this *The Frankenstein* up N running by years end/before.
Well just the Dual W18's, not the W22, that upgrade will have to wait til 2022 til I beef up my audio budget , which is pretty low at the moment.
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Hi all, I'd like to know what is better for symphonic music with a budget of $2500 for the speakers: full range speakers or speakers + separate subwoofer, or speakers with build in powered subwoofers. can I get high-end sound with any of this configurations within my speaker budget? which combinations would you recommend me in this budget for my musical tastes? your help on this matter will be greatly appreciated! Thanks.jair2fdc
OK well so for $2500, this is in 2001 prices = todays $4G;s. (inflation) So for 2500 Lets see. W22 Graphene /$1G + Vox /AC!A/$2G's yep you got it. $3G's Best speaker for classical music, 2nd to none under $10G's. See this is why I love FR Get a panel of thick plexiglass (ain't cheap) cut the hiole, plop it in, worlds best looking, and super wife friendly cabinet. Light weight and just gorgeous aesthetically https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nAZFohYTPQNot sure if this member is still around after 20 years , but I did get his Q's answered. Pity I did not know this combo back in 2001. |
The previous posts are both excellent.
If your room is large enough, a full-range floor stander may be best. Your overall sound will probably be more balanced and better integrated. I don't think you'll have any trouble finding a quality used pair of floor standing speakers for $2500.
If you have a small room like me, monitors and a subwoofer is a viable alternative. At 12 x 16 feet my room isn't that tiny, but I got a ton of other stuff in there too. And that reduces the size of it considerably. In my room, a near field setup doesn't work. I'm too close to the sub, the standing bass waves are just too long, and I get no bottom end. When I can sit at least 10 feet from the sub, it sounds more natural and has much more presence. Also, dialing in a sub can be very tedious and time consuming. Finding the right spot to put it may take time. For some people it doesn't work at all. Fortunately, for me it has. |
If these speakers are for your 9'x11' room that you described in your other post, go with a monitor or a small, 2-way floorstanding speaker. A full range speaker will deliver too much bass for your room. I also have a small (10x11) room, and if I did not already have my 3-ways I would go with a small 2-way floorstander. They will have a fuller sound and more bass than a monitor, but will be able to be controlled with room treatment. I'm really not sure about an integration with a sub in a room that size. I would imagine that it wouldn't work very well in a room that size because low frequencies in general do not work in small rooms, but hopefully someone who reads this will pick up the ball. If you can work a sub in to the mix then get a monitor, if not, get a small 2-way. Like Pls1 said on your other post, the room will definitely need to have some acoustical treatment, no matter what speaker you go with, especially if you like it loud. Audio Advisor sells some inexpensive treatment, there's also Echobusters and other brands. Regarding your other post, find the speakers you like, then think about what amp to get for it. Good luck and feel free to email me. |
Hi Jair. If you ask most 'Philes' who listen to symphonic and classical music, you'll find that two of the many performance aspects that they really look for are tonality and dynamics. Some will tell you that "true" full range speakers are they way to go because of the fact that a good full range speaker is tuned well and balanced in presentation. Some may go for the Bookshelf and sub system for the fact that some feel that an 'excellent' bookshelf is better than a 'good' full Range speaker in the upper octaves of musical presentation. Also with the sub/bookshelf system, you can be flexible with the placement of the sub. As far as "High End" sound goes, that's relative to your experience and your 'sense of reality'. If your system is revealing to you and it retreaves full picture information at low volume levels and it gives you that "I'm at the concert feeling" then really what more could you ask for except for backstage passes?
What is the rest of your system looking like nowadays? This may help with matching your system and allow people to give you their opinions that might be able to help you. If you buy used that $2,500 will go a little further since your looking for perfomance speakers. |
