Finally took the Bryston 4B Cubed plunge

Asia,  Thank you for your post. Since I listen to Magnepan, the treble and mids are highly resolved. "Grainy" is an adjective I would never consider with my 4B3.  To my ears, it is clean, accurate and detailed. I am extremely pleased to hear the results of your Society Test. Your findings regarding the unbalanced input gives me something to examine as I have been running everything balanced. 

Good day to you all, I'm very happy to find this thread. Please allow me to compare my limited experience. We had an extended comparison at the society between high class solid state amps including Bryston (4B3), Pass, Gryphon. Members agreed 4B3 more than matched the others in resolution, transparency, soundstage and realism and 4B3 had more authority and involvement. The member who organised the test was planning to purchase Pass, he opted for a set of 4B3 to drive his JBL Everest ($40K a pair). He also owns Krell and Levinson, they are gathering dust. 4B3 treble is as good as any transistor amp but bettered by good valve amps. I think the traditional reputation of lively/strong bass/mid at the expense of grainy treble was true for 4B and 4BST but no longer true for 4B3. The biggest improvement may have occurred with 4B2 when the output circuit was radically changed but I have no personal experience of the 4B2. We also found the following (no cost) ways. 1) Try to buy the dealer demo 4B3 it takes a huge amount of time to run in 2) The unbalanced (phono) input gives a much more involving sound than the balanced input. Happy listening! (Disclosure, Bryston/Thiel for past 20 years).

I am very late to the chain but wanted to join in. I have a Bryston 4B Cubed, BP26 with the power pack, BDP2, BDA2, PMC Twenty5 23 speakers. The sound is absolutely fantastic. I was also using the Focal 1028BE but the sound was to bright so traded them in for the PMCs. I should have bought the Twenty5 26.

Thanks

Hi @phcollie I finally managed to audition the Bryston 4B3 and compared it to the Parasound JC5, but at the end I decided I will keep the JC5.   Here's my impression of the 2 amps.

When I first hooked up the Bryston, right away I noticed the improvement in the bass.  It's got nice slam and punchiness.   The amp also seems very quiet.   The high end does seem to have a little more details than the JC-5.   My first impression was pretty good, and I thought it was going to be a keeper.

After about 3 weeks, the Parasound JC-5 started to open up.  The bass has improved.   The sound stage is wide open.  There is a lot of space between instruments.   Overall there is this sense of transparency to the amp, it feels like it is just quietly sitting there and delivering the music without getting in the way.   It's very quiet and probably a little more so than the Bryston.   The bass doesn't have the slam of the Bryston, but it goes a little lower.   The highs doesn't seem to be as detailed as the Bryston, but it is still very good.   Overall I find the JC-5 to have a smoother sound and much easier to listen to.

Bryston 4B3 is a great amp,  I can see myself being happy with it.  Really love the bass.   But at the end, the JC-5 is a little more suitable to my taste.

Cheers!

Thanks @phcollie for the great update. It sounds pretty good to me! I think I’m going to try to audition it at home. Will post an update if I do. Thanks again!

@xcool,
Spent about 22 hours listening this weekend to the new 4B3. I’m not a reviewer who uses buzz words well but I’ve tried to avoid expectation bias and be objective. First...Noticed it was completely silent. My Odyssey had a noticeable hum if you put your ears to the Magnepan panel. I Like the 23db Gain switch option, matches better with my Tube Preamp. Runs barely warm to the touch. Sound is transparent, precise and neutral. Listening to strings in the upper end takes you right to the edge as the music is actually played but never uncomfortable. I would describe it as clean and sweet but not subdued or mellow. Another change was the firm low end and control in the middle low end that was lacking with the Odyssey. I now know what smear, or rather lack thereof means. Night and day difference in presentation of an image. Listening to Julliard Strings playing Middle Quartets I could specifically locate where the First, Second, Cello and Viola were sitting. When they played the same note I could still separate them. Pace and quickness much improved. Female vocals were full of air and listening to Gregory Porter’s baritone voice is rich and involving. I listened to Folk, Indie, Light Rock, Techno, Jazz and Classical and did not find anything objectionable. Everything is system dependent of course but it is clear that the 4B3 plays well with others so to speak and gets along fine with the Magnepans, My NuPrime Dac10 and the Freya Plus. If your goal is to manage your sound color and timbre on the front end and have the amp stay out of the way then the 4B3 does just that and will not heat up your room. Head room and power is ample & beyond sufficient so I do not see where I need more than 500 watts with my 4Ohm load. Good Luck.

professorsvsu - congratulations on your 4B-SST3.  Bryston makes excellent equipment and is an outstanding company.  I agree with the synergy between Bryston and Audio Research.  I have a 4B-SST2 that is paired with an LS28 preamp and I think it is a great sounding combination. I agree, too, about Parasound.  Bang for the buck they are really hard to beat.  Enjoy!

How many of you Brytson guys have experienced the squared and cubed series? I have read that the cubed series has a mellower trebble? I ran a 4BSST-2 with a Pass Labs XP-20 preamp. Playing vinyl and most digital sounded great, especially at higher volumes. But I found a decent number of recordings just sounded fatiguing on the the high end. I swapped in a new Pass Labs XA30.8 Class A amp and it sounds smoother and more pleasing. 
I have no experience with the new Bryston amps and was just curious...

Thanks @phcollie looking forward to your impression of the Bryston.   

As with the JC-5,  after another week of burning in, it started to open up a little.  I can definitely hear more low bass that I couldn't from my A31, but mid and upper bass still lack the slam that I had wished for.   Occasionally, I find the treble might be just a tad too bright.  I have tinnitus on both ears and they are very sensitive to high frequency.   I was hoping it could be just a tiny bit warmer.  

Overall JC-5 is not a bad amp.  I have no doubt that it sounds great to many people.  I'm just looking for the perfect match to my ears.    I'm still considering keeping, but might try to listen to the Bryston before making the decision.

xcool, thank you for your post on the JC5. I have been going back and forth between purchasing the JC5 or the 4B3 to pair with my Magnepans. Today a dealer offered me a very attractive price on his demo 4B3 with about 50 hours of use. It should arrive Friday and I will be happy to report back after the weekend. I know Bryston runs them 100 hours before they leave the plant so I should get a reasonable idea of the sound after the weekend.
I will leave my Odyssey powered up as well and plan on doing some A/B testing on a range of Qobuz high res files.  

Thank you all so much for the responses so far.  They are all very helpful.   I will try to read up on Bryston a little more and maybe give it try.

I have a X250.8 and tried a 4B3 in my system for a few days to see if I could replace the big Pass to save some $$ and make my room less hot in the summer.

I thought the Bryston had faster and tighter bass in my system.   In the end I decided to keep the Pass but the Bryston was also excellent with a more forward/detailed presentation and lots of speed & punch.  I did not find it bright in the higher frequencies; I thought it was very smooth and easy to listen to.

Cheers

@xcool - I have found that the Parasound amps are not necessarily bass monsters.  In fact, you need a really good high current low resistance power cord to improve the bass on JC1 monoblocks!

That being said, the Bryston are not bass monsters either, especially on a faster high resolution preamp such as Parasound JC2.  If you had a warm/slow preamp, the Bryston would probably be a better match.  The Bryston's are very fast responding amps and need a warm full sounding preamp, such as a Marantz or maybe even McIntosh type warmth.

I'm not sure what to recommend to you for strong bass.  Maybe a Pass Labs X250.8 would be good, but I don't know how they are on bass.  Maybe others can chime in with recommendations.

@xcool I don't find the Bryston cubed amps to run particularly hot. They are class AB and you will need ventilation, but even after extended use I feel fine touching them by hand. I find the Cubed series models sound very smooth and non-fatiguing, with excellent detail. In comparison to Parasound, the two companies have different goals for the sound character so it really comes down to personal preference.

Hi @professorsvsu sorry to chime in on this 2 year old thread. I have a few questions on your Bryston 4B3.

I’m in the middle of an upgrade cycle. Almost 3 months ago, I purchased a pair of B&W 804 D3. I have since added Parasound JC-2 BP preamp. For power amps, I have Parasound A31. I only run a 3 channel HT system with a Marantz 8802A preprocessor.

I’m now looking into upgrading my music with a new stereo amp. I just purchased the Parasound JC-5 due to very good reviews and the fact that I love my JC-2. I’m only a few days into it, and I have to say I’m not very impressed with the JC-5. I find it not much better than my A31 if at all. I do think I hear some lower frequency bass that I didn’t with the A31, but the overall bass department seems a little calm and less prominent to me. Bass is one of the area that I like to see improvement. I understand I probably should let the JC-5 burn in a little longer before doing critical listening.

However, there is another issue that might be a show stopper for me. The JC-5 runs really HOT. I’m housing it in the same cabinet as my JC-2, and now the JC-2 is extremely hot also. Due to the size of the JC-5, this is my only option right now.

So the question I have is 1) how hot does the Bryston run? 2) Do you find a good improvement of bass in the Bryston than your A21? 3) Does the Bryston sound bright in the high frequency in any way? I have tinnitus and I really don’t like bright sounding amps.

Bryston also is much smaller in size and gives me more flexibility of housing it away from my JC-2. So I’m eager to give that a try if I can find a sound improvement over the A31.

Thanks for sharing all of your thoughts on this excellent gear.

Happy Listening!

I did find this review which compares the 3B, 4B and 14B Cubed:

http://www.hifi-advice.com/blog/review/analog-reviews/amplifier-reviews/bryston-3b-4b-and-14b-cubed-...

So how does the 3B3 compare sound wise?  The 4B3 is heavier than I like, and the 3B-SST (150 W @ 8 Ohms) I have now has more than enough power for me.

I finally took the 14b3 plunge and a silver one will be coming out of Canada maybe next week if not later. It takes Bryston 3 weeks to get an amp out the door according to a Canadian dealer.  I have a 14bsst right now driving some OHM 5000's. It does take control being a bass master as Sam Tellig said. I'm looking for that almost last bit of SS glare and subtle dryness to be gone with the cubed version. My hopes are optimistic and from what I've read it closes the gap substantially from the older generations and comes  closer to the musical truth. I have a silver 17b cubed demo I bought from Moon Audio in Raliegh coming in FedEx tomorrow. Oh by the way Drew was super nice and one their specialties is custom audiophile headphone cables. From what I've gathered from my research is that it should bring some air and space around the instruments. I regrettably sold my Adcom 750 back in 2012. I replaced it with a BP25. Even though it sounded great it did put a little SS coloration in the music that the Adcom didn't in passive mode. We audiophiles are always looking for audio nirvana. I'm looking forward to use the new remote to switch between my Marantz 8005 and SA-10 I got yesterday. With the BP 25 I would have to manually switch it. I will be out for another month from foot  surgery so i will have plenty of time to evaulate everything. Listening to Yes "Ftagile" right now.

jafant

We met on the Thiel Owners Thread.
I went to Bryston on the recommendation of Jim Thiel when I got the 3.5s. I’ve had a couple of variants of the 4B, ending up with the SST2 at present. Then, after a couple of exchanges with Jim Tanner, I got the BP6C as the preamp. By now, both have been in play for hundreds of hours, feeding my current Thiel 2.7s and a SS2.2 sub woofer (via a PX05.)
As I have an extensive collection of RedBook classical CDs, I bought the BCD-3. So, it’s Bryston and Thiel, with a Magnum Dynalab FM tuner thrown into the mix. Very Contented Listening!
Except, my son is needling me to get the 4B3, as he’ll inherit my system.

I'm trialing (on loan from a dealer) a 4b3 having about 7 years ago trialed a pair of 7b2 which I didn't like at ALL...those monos seemed very hard and brittle to me on the upper mid range and highs although it could have been a question of break-in.  In contrast, I DO like the 4b3 quite alot, the demo unit I'm listening to is well broken in and the amp has a great delicate upper midrange and high frequencies.  I would say the only thing it lacks is a little bit of dimensionality among instruments in the sound stage but I've generally found that only with tube gear.  The front end is an Anesthetix Janus tubed preamp and the dac is a Bryston DBA-1, and my speaker are Thiel 2.4s.  The only thing that keeps me from buying the Bryston unit is a little bit of a thirst to try some Pass labs on the power amp side, probably a pair of XA60.8's if I can get my hands on a pair.  Unfortunately there's no Pass dealer anywhere near Atlanta so I guess I'll need to deal with the Reno folks or just buy used amps outright.  If anyone in Atlanta has a couple of Pass amps sitting around and wants to play, hit me up.  Of course the things are not exactly easily "portable."  Ha.

Just got my new speaker in, Audiovector SR 1 Avantgarde Arreté. Ruthlessly revealing 2-way monitor. The Bryston sounds very, very good with it, better than my Ayre AX7e. The speaker is one of those small not-that-efficient (87.5dB) monitors that is deceptively power-hungry, and the 4B3 fills it out better than the Ayre which is pretty limited in current capability. The AMT tweeter extends to 52kHz and doesn't cut an unrefined amp any slack whatsover. The Bryston combo is impressively smooth, not a hint of solid state coarseness. Pretty impressed, it's a good amp for sure.

I purchased the 4B3 right after the JC5 was released for sale. I thought about purchasing the JC5, or at least auditioning, then I nixed the thought. It's marketed as two JC1 monoblocks under one roof for 2/3 the cost . . . . . or something like that. I'm not an engineer, but it seems as though Parasound had the mindset to market something different as opposed to something better in an effort to stay contemporary. Bryston on the other hand came up with a new input circuit in an effort to make the Cubed series quieter and more revealing than their previous models. Better? I believe that was the goal of Bryston engineers and it caught my attention along with a multitude of other selling points.
I purchased and kept the 4B3 with no regrets except for the fact that the cost is twice what I paid for my first new car (1972 Mustang). It has offered a "better" listening experience than I've ever had and will almost certainly outlive me.

Would be interesting a comparison between the 4B3 and the new Parasound JC5, both at $6k.

Thank You - taww
Yes, Audience started with the original "Au" series and "e" power cord.I have heard those models roughly 10years ago. Not bad at all to my ears.No question the SE and SX built upon the early success and took a good line to excellence.
I look forward in reading about your thoughts and impressions.Happy Listening!

@jafant my friend is sending me some of the older Audience cables, I think possibly the original Au24, for comparison with the SX. So I should have a sense of how they work with the Bryston, if you decide to pick up an old set or what not.

Thank You - tawwGood to read that Audience cabling is a sonic match w/ Bryston. Transparent Audio is as well. I have not heard the newer lines (SE nor SX).Even the very 1st line of cabling and power cords still holds up.
If I decide to go this way, the BP-26 pre-amp, maybe too much for a simple 2-channel CD/SACD system. I hope to get a demo on the BP-17.
Happy Listening!

@professorsvsu I'm glad you're enjoying your 4B3 even more now after some more run-in. TBH, when you said it was only a little better than your Parasound, I raised my eyebrows a bit and thought to myself, that Bryston either isn't set up properly or run in enough. ;)

@fsonicsmith in fairness and full disclosure, I'm actually a reviewer so it's my job to try to be as objective as possible. :) And the Brystons are on loan for review. I try not to be a brand groupie, and ultimately all I care about is how good the gear and sound is regardless of brand, but hey I'm human and there are a few that I have a soft spot for. Anyway you raise a LOT of great points and questions that I could go on and on about, I will try to respond as succinctly as I can...

Re: Bryston missing the mark on "transparency and inner detail," I think this is a fair criticism. I'm not as familiar with the SST2 and older lines, but my friend Marty DeWulf spent some time with them and I think he would agree with you. My best guess is the Cubed series makes pretty big strides here, and gets much closer to hitting the mark. It's still not Pass or Ayre, but it's pretty good. 

Re: why they don't try to go after the super high-end crowd, I think it's pretty simple: culture and business model. I don't think our target market is a very good one from a financial perspective. It's way too niche and full of crazies like me. We're super subjective and fickle and it just goes against the grain of the pragmatic, engineering-centric and quality-driven culture of Bryston. Also in terms of design philosophy, the types of things that matter to purist audiophiles - minimalism, zero feedback, etc. - actually go against the grain of what Bryston designs for. Everything is a trade-off, and they make certain design decisions based on specific objectives. One of them is absolute reliability - the protection circuits in a Bryston amp may actually take a little away from the sound, but they make the unit bulletproof. A 4B3 would thrive in environments - studios, stages, theater basements, school auditoriums, etc. - that would make a typical high-end amp cry, or probably burst into flames. Case in point - I accidentally pulled the power cord out of the 4B3 mid-operation. The amp instantaneously muted as if I had turned it off properly, surely and gracefully. Not a single thump or moment of drama for my speakers or ears. Same for the preamp. The stuff is indestructible and impervious to idiocy, and if you do somehow overwhelm the failsafes, there's a good chance Bryston will fix it for you anyway. That takes a certain commitment and design ethos that while not diametrically opposed to the purist approach, certainly isn't congruent with it.

I think when you factor the above and the warranty into the price of the Bryston, it would be reasonable to expect their $5k amp to be in the same sound-quality league as an audiophile amp at about half the price. Again, trade-ofs - all that design stuff takes time and money that could have been spent on tweaking ultimate sound quality. The fact that the 4B3 actually sounds very much in line with its price, AND checks all the traditional Bryston boxes, is kind of remarkable methinks.

As to why they are going into tables, again, simple - market factors. Analog is hot and distinct from the high-end market - LPs are actually cool and hipster and there is a younger demographic buying them. Compare this to the typical crowd at an audio show, that, no offense, is more likely to be collecting Social Security benefits than paying off student loans. Analog has become a viable, sustainable market (for now at least), and in business, either you cash in or get pushed out. 

And you can't fault Bryston for going after a solid business model. What's the point of offering a 20 year warranty if you can't stay in business that long! :)  In fact you could say that in order to take care of their core customer base well into the future, they did the math and made some business projections and decisions to ensure financial health. The audio industry is deep into an existential crisis and I don't blame anyone for trying to stay alive.

@elizabeth I haven't used the BP26 but I have experience with the preamp section of the older Bryston B60, which is pretty much the same as the BP6 which in turn uses the same fundamental discrete op amp circuits as the BP25 and BP26 and shares the same sonic signature. (Bryston says this themselves and isn't shy about showing this in the schematics.)

Based on this experience the Bryston preamp circuit is very musical and nice, but fundamentally colored by the electrolytic caps. There simply isn't any electrolytic that's truly neutral. The old Black Gates were the best sounding I had heard and the recent Mundorfs are very nice (I'm using them in my B60), but they're not anything like film caps, much less straight wire. The funny thing is these caps are often warm and fuzzy sounding once broken in, generally softening the highs and adding fullness (some would say bloat) to the lower midrange and bass. This actually works out great in the Bryston as it balances out any potential hardness/brightness in the op amp circuit, and it also adds warmth that helps make their amps sound better (synergy!). I think if you swapped out the 'lytics for a better film cap that's very fast and clear, the preamp would actually sound worse. Ultimately holistic balance in the circuit/system is more important than absolute correctness of a given part, and this is why it's worked for so many years. It might sound like damning with faint praise but hey, it's your enjoyment that counts! 

@jafant for interconnects I'm using either Audience Au24 SX (admittedly a little out of whack price-wise with the Brystons) or DH Labs Revelation. I also have DH Labs Air Matrix and some assorted other budget things lying around, but most of my time has been with one the Audience or Revelation.

For speaker cables, Audience Au24 SX or DH Labs Q-10 Signature. Power cable has been Audience powerChord SE-i, DH Labs Corona or the stock 14-3 cord which is actually pretty ok on the 4B3. 

The funny thing is early on when the Brystons weren't broken in, I much preferred the DH Labs wires - the Audience made the darkness and murkiness worse. Then as the gear opened up, the DH Labs became a bit too forward and I went back to the Audience, and now everything is lovely. The Audience are more refined cables and cost a pretty penny more so this isn't an indictment of the excellent DH Labs cables at all, but I also think it points to how it takes time for the Bryston to balance out. If gear works well with the Audience that could be taken as a good sign we're getting closer to the big leagues, as they are outstanding wires used as a reference in some extremely impressive ($$$) high-end systems. 

jafant,
Now I await your update on the 4B3. =)I speak for myself and hopefully elizabeth as well when I say, "try it, you'll like it."

I just haven't gotten around to selling the A21 yet. That's the only reason I still have it.

So you still have the Parasound A21?  Interesting.  One of the things I have recently found is that Parasound fuses the crap out of their amps.  The A21 has a main 15A on the outside and four 8A fuses internally (after the transformer).  They are all larger 6x32 size fuses.  Putting in Furutech fuses made a significant difference in the fullness and resolution of the sound.  I don't know that you want to try this experiment, as it's a $325 experiment, but it would be interesting to see how the Parasound circuit stands up without stock fuses getting in the way.  The Bryston amps typically don't use fuses at all - they like circuit breakers.

I wanted to chime back in one more time. I now have hundreds of hours of use on the 4B3 since I started this thread. All that's left to say is WOW! The amp is crazy good. I briefly went back to my Parasound A21 for a comparison now that the 4B3 is broken in. My initial thoughts on the two were that they were close in sound quality, I was so wrong. The 4B3 is in different league, which is what I'd hoped for when I purchased it. My journey has taken me through speakers, cables, turntables, tonearms, cartridges, etc. and this amp is at least equal to the best improvement I've made. My search for THE AMP has ended.Next up: Herron VTPH-2A phono preamp. The order to build has been placed and hopefully finished in the coming week.Thanks Audiogon folks for all of your insight.

TAWW, it is very refreshing for an owner of a piece of high-end kit to be objective about it. Thank you. I wish there were more people on enthusiast boards like you-people who are able to avoid ownership-bias. 
I own gear that most would consider a step up from the Bryston gear being mentioned in this thread-an ARC Ref 6 and Ref 150SE. I am happy with them but don't pretend for a second that they are the best, even in their price category. I have listened to Bryston gear in my own home. I have always found it puzzling that the company seems ambitious and has solid engineers and yet manages to miss the mark a bit on transparency and inner detail in their amplification circuits. To me, their best products are their CD players. Given their apparent ambition, I don't understand why they don't try to market a "premier" line and start with a clean slate, employing a brand new set of engineers/designers. And sorry to digress, but why would they attempt forays into loudspeakers and turntables? In that regard, they remind me of McIntosh which now markets a huge catalogue of products such that I have lost all respect for the brand. 

And no, the 100 hours of run-in at the factory is clearly not enough. The 200 hours are on top of that. :)