I'm contemplating the purchase of this brand of protractor.
Over the years I have relied on a good friend to mount cartridges and set up the few tables that I have owned in the past. Relying on someone else to do this was for good reason.
I would never make it as a watch maker or any other profession that requires a fine touch and skill with steady hands. The time has come where I will have to do this totally on my own.
My question to you owners of the Feickert protractor is what is your experience with it regarding ease of use and accuracy compared to other protractors?
Secondly, the disk has strobe markings for speed set up, does the Feickert package come with a strobe light for the $250. selling price?
I asked these question of a dealer sent via a e-mail and have not received a reply as of yet.
Islandmandan wrote: I found my overhang was off using the VPI jig
You have to be a little bit careful if you're using the VPI table. Because VPI publishes some bogus specs on their website which were not the real things. MintLP requires very accurate specs, so if Yip designed the Best Tractor based on the bogus specs you'll expect to find some differences from the VPI jig.
I have a VPI Aries-3 turntable and when I checked VPI's website, originally it says the PS distance is 262mm, I did my own measurement and found that it's 256mm on my table. I called up VPI and sought clarification, telling them about my measurements. VPI soon corrected the number on their website. But then there're a bunch of other number, like overhang, offset angle which I cannot verify. I found that if I use their published numbers I cannot get the same null point as shown the VPI jigs. The whole thing just appears fishy. And that's the reason why I haven't yet ordered a MintLP, because I don't know what specs to give Yip.
Viper, That is exactly what I found with my Aries 3 and 10.5i arm. The 262 number was bogus, I did my own measuring before I ordered a protractor from Ken Willis. So those with a VPI 10.5i arm should not order a protractor based on the 262mm distance.
I read these series of posts through, and just can't understand why anyone would want to go nuts over this. VPI has a perfectly good alignment jig. My SME also came with a plastic jig similar to VPI's that works well...I double checked them both with a DB protractor and all is well. Why agonize over this?
Stringreen, I'm not agonizing in the least. I'm enjoying a sound from my Signature Scout that really satisfies on a level that is hard to believe is coming from said Scout. The VPI jig supplied with the Scout, and other tables, gets you ball-park close, but the Mintlp tool is VERY precise, that's how you find out that set-up was not as close as you thought with less precise tools. Best 100 bucks I've spent yet on my analog rig. I recommend it highly. Dan
Stiltskin, I have a Aries-3 with 10.5i arm, so my table is the only thing I can measure and verify with VPI.
I cannot verify the overhang because I don't know how to measure it. If VPI got the PS distance wrong, what's the hope that they will get the rest of the numbers right?
Viper, You can get a blank armboard to cut your own or one cut for SME direct from VPI. Go to inmate picture gallery at Audio Asylum for pictures under BIGBLOCK.
Don't worry about published pivot to spindle distances with arms like the VPI (whose p-s distance can be easily compensated for).
For these tonearms as well as "fresh mounts" (where you're not stuck with a given p-s distance), work from the effective length (bearing pivot to stylus).
The Baerwaald equations will derive the correct pivot to spindle distance and offset angle.
This thread (I believe) as well as several others have described how to measure the effective length of your tonearm with a plain ol' ruler. If you have slots in your headshell, you will be plenty accurate.
At a minimum, use your measurement to verify against published specs. If you're wildly off (e.g. 3 or 4 mm), contact the manufacturer.
For any one's interest regarding the Customs entry rejection of my MintLp tractor. Turns out illegibility of Yips address due to scuff mark damage during transit.
No big deal, should have my arc tractor in a few days.
I agree with Stringreen that the VPI jig should be adequate provided that it is straight. My problem with the supplied jig is that it is not. No matter how I try to slightly bend it, it never seems to be uniformly flat on the platter. This, I think, would have to throw off the results. I'm sure VPI would send me a new jig but I think one advantage of the mintLP tractor is that it should lay more flat. It is made of glass, right?
To Sonofjim, Yes, the Mintlp is made of glass.The only thing I can say to the nay-sayers is that I am happy with the way my vinyl rig sounds now, I know without a doubt set-up couldn't be any better, and that fact is directly reflected by how it sounds. That's all I need to know.
I'm in the process of orderring a best tractor from mintlp for my 10.5i arms. The time difference is delaying comunication somewhat but I look forward to trying it. Thanks to all for your input on this thread. I would never have thought to try this without the comments I've read here.
As a side note, my measured pivot to spindle distance for the 10.5i on the SSM table agrees well with VPI's published value of 256 mm. I'm not sure why the value was off for the Aries 3 but my guess is that the rest of the values for overhang can be assumed to be accurate.
I have a Dennesen Electrostatic Protractor that I bought in the 80's. I haven't used it in 25 years as I haven't used a pivot arm until now, but it looks alot like the Feickert contraption. Mount it over the spindle, locate the arms pivot point, and then adjust the cartridge to one point on the jig. Its easy to use as long as you can find the arm pivot point which isn't always easy. After reading this thread, though, I'm not sure how accurate it would be for all arms. I may try a Mint. the price is right.
Mark, I'm glad to see you achieved similar results to what I did. This has to be the best money I ever spent on my analog front end. The difference is better than what most expensive upgrades will do. This analog is good stuff! Dan
After all this good press (and the nice photos of Dan_Ed's system on the MintLP website) I can't hold out any longer. I just emailed Yip for a protractor for our rig. Stay tuned...
Because right now I believe I just dialed in my cartridge beyond what the Feickert could ever do.
Congratulations. Do you hear a difference?
FWIW - for holding platters and protractors in place, I use that blue painters tape used to mask off edges and borders - works like a charm and easy to remove with no marks left.
I just re-read the first several messages in this thread - been a bit of journey since the last 10 days of June, eh. :) Â Tim Â
I have one of Yip's Mint protractors coming as well in the post as we speak.
I am used the wally tractor on my old VPI JMW 12.5, however that is useless now that I have teh 12.7.
Anyway, it will be interesting to see how the mint goes vs the Graham Phantom jig alignment
Tim, sounds like you and your soundstage buddies need to do a comparison of several alignment protractors like the wally, mint, ken willis, db, freikert etc and publish it in soundstage. Use your table/arm and someone else's. It would be interesting reading on the positives and minus's of each.
Tim Initially when I first posted the question about the Feikert protractor I felt I needed an additional set up tool. In addition to what the Feickert tool did, it also provided a strobe disk for precise speed setting.
My conclusion on the Freikert are this tool would be put to good use at an audio dealer.
Set up is fast, easy and close enough for all they care.
I once owned a Linn table from 1983 to 2001. Cartridge set up and fine tuning the suspension was done by a friend that did turntable set up as part of his living for many years. I never really involved myself until now.
Overall I found setting up my own table arm and cartridge relatively easy, if you plan ahead and have " patience ".
Securing my platter I found using cabinet door bumpers to work supremely well, more so then tape.
We had a new kitchen installed acouple of years ago and the fellow that did the work gave me a pad of bumpers. I thought at that time these nifty little things may come in handy for something down the road.
These particular bumpers come in a pad of perhaps a hundred or so. They are clear domed shape soft rubber that are self adhesive. I used a pencil to ever so gently wedge 4 against the patter.
This securely locked the platter in place 100%. Removing them after set up , I used a pencil to pry them off the deck. They left no marks.
The use of painters tape as Tim suggested to secure the Mint tractor is the way to go.
I have approximately 44 hours logged onto my table arm and cartridge, any meaningful changes in sonics I need to spend some time with my system.
We have overseas company visiting at the moment, yesterday my wife took them all shopping for the entire afternoon. This was my window of opportunity to use the MintLp.
07-30-08: Sonofjim As a side note, my measured pivot to spindle distance for the 10.5i on the SSM table agrees well with VPI's published value of 256 mm. I'm not sure why the value was off for the Aries 3 but my guess is that the rest of the values for overhang can be assumed to be accurate.
Sonofjim, the 256mm that you saw on VPI website is the correct value but originally they were publishing 262mm. They finally changed the number after I called Mike up and told him that I measured 256mm on my Aries-3 w/ JMW10.5i.
It must be nice to be able to actually go "hands on" with the great analog toys,you all speak of....The "jig thing" is fun....A nice way to spend a week-end of "hobby".
My last experience,of months ago,left me "cold"!!Both towards a well known dealer(a joke,who could have saved me serious "repair" money,and major aggravation,if he gave a crap,or "knew his products")and the frustrated experience of not having the correct info on hand,to allow proper set-up....The lack of correct info caused major problems,and could easily have been avoided!Luckily my perseverence has led "ALL" of this to a major upgrading of all products involved....It was NOT worth it!!!
Anyone around fifteen to twenty years ago,should remember the "Jurassic Period",of well versed analog dealers,who could answer simple questions,"be local",and help avoid potential customer problems.Maybe(if you were lucky) they cared enough to follow up a problem.I had one of these!....Back in the "Jurassic"!
I had a dealer/analog guru/ employee/store manager/friend who became quite reliable,and it was "he" who spent loads of time going over different set-up parameters with me.This led me to know my analog,a little bit(P.S-he got fired,once Digital got going!) ....Not many fellows like that these days!One reason for the value of this kind of forum.
I'm not going to elaborate on this problematic dealer's name,or any mfgrs,but all potential customers should arm yourself with "knowledge",because EVERYONE down the chain is going to claim innocence,and attempt to pass the buck...to maybe you!!..."Laughable"!!
OK,sorry(I still need to vent)...but one aspect of the experience was the loan of the Wallytractor alignment/set-up tool.....
A dear friend uses this,and before it's usage I was underwhelmed with his switch to a pivoting arm.His previous LLT arm was performing far better.
With the Wally,things got alot closer,and the accuracy of set-up was clearly heard.
My short time(two weekends) with the "Wally",which was cut short by an almost catastrophic set-up problem(yes I am gnarling my teeth, STILL)..was one of "really" being impressed with it!...This is a damn good little "gizmo"!
I cannot understand why anyone would need to read three pages of "posts",after utilizing one of these babies....
Next weekend,I'll FINALLY be able to set-up an analog rig again!My pre/phonostage is coming back the week after that..with a major upgrade/mod...BUT...
sadly I won't have the Wally to double check things(I sent it back to the "dealer").Doubt I'll ever call the guy again,yet.....I don't think I'll care too much by then! -:)
Sorry for the "definite" rant....as well as the lack of "Doug-osity"(ie: "interesting technical input",which was sorely missing in my post)
You guys really did it. I can't stand it any longer, and have therefore ordered my MintLP protractor. If you guys made me spend 100 dollars for nothing...
Using the MintLp,it's going to boil down to your level of patience and preparedness. I found our kitchen table to be an ideal place to do it, also level your table before proceeding.
Securing your platter so it won't move at all and taping down the arc tractor is relatively easy.
Pink coloured erasers work very well securing any movement of your platter. Though I found the soft rubber cabinet door bumpers I mentioned above to work best.
If you don't already have one, I would highly recommend you purchase the 10 power Lupe Yip of MintLp offers for $10.00. Lupe's range in price and optic quality to well beyond $100.00.
Downunder, look forward to your comments. The Graham jigs for the Phantom arm are just that.
The MintLp tractor is a well thought out precision tool accompanied by an equally well thought out step by step manual.
Sirspeedy, Things were certainly much simpler during the Jurassic period. I understand the Wally protractor is very good also, however I have read it is difficult to next impossible to get one from him for unknown reasons.
Dougdeacon, looking forward to your impressions of the Mint.
Stiltskin et al,I did use both the Wally,and the Graham Phantom jig...over "the" two weekends,where I spent a TON of time setting criteria to the n'th degree(and maybe 6 to 8 hrs of sound,before..."Krakatoa,East of Java").One reason I was SO peeved,after SO much wasted set-up time.
I've also used the Graham Phantom jig on my friends Phantom,which I set up.....
From my own experience,the Graham jig really is superb,and I only used the Wally,because it was on loan!
I was able to get the arm absolutely equal to the Wally's spec, for sure,with the "somewhat underrated Graham jig".....I used the Graham jig "first",then checked the results with the Wally,afterwards....
The Graham jig was spot on!
I don't understand why some view it as not being anything other than an ingenious,easy way to get set up accurately?
Sirspeedy I agree, the Phantom alignment jig is ingenious.
With the arm wand removed and in your hands while aligning your cantilever this is certainly a far and away better method then doing it attached.
However, what I found was the length of the cantilever on my cartridge put the target plate on a pitch. For spot on over hang you have to rely on line of sight from left or right. In other words no cross hair marking is provided on the jig itself, no doubt because of different cantilever lengths. I believe there is room for minor errors. You nailed it I didn't, the Mint proved that.
Btw,where the Wally was "outstanding" was in the way it allows for azimuth alignment,"BUT" you need good/young eyes to max out it's way of alignment/sighting.
I like Doug's method,which I think is to set close enough by eye,to "then" let the ear take over.A good ear,with familiar LP's,can do the trick.
well, I was invited by one of the users of this discussion board. Honestly I do not think it makes any sense for me to go through all postings here as I am currently under heavy workload with some other projects and also get the ball rolling with our latest baby - Adjust+!
I hereby invite everybody who has problems, comments, wishes or whatsoever to address me directly by e-mail as was already done. If there is misunderstanding on the handling feel free to ask me. I will definitely give you an answer asap.
Stringreen, What value did you give Yip for pivot to spindle distance on the 10.5i? I found that 256 mm was right on for mine. Just wondered because it seems others have found the specs to be off. I don't think you spent $100 for nothing. Even if it turns out the same you get the piece of mind of double checking. Isn't that what audio nervousa is all about?
I wonder if any of you out there with a Galibier/Tri-Planar VII (you know who you are...) and the Feickert have ever noticed this strange problem? When I measure the pivot-spindle distance with the Feickert, I find 232.5 mm. Thom's protractor indicates a distance of 233.5 mm, which seems confirmed even by my clumsy measurement with a ruler. Has anybody else tried to double-check the result of the Feickert with a ruler? Thanks. Cheers.
08-04-08: Sonofjim Stringreen, What value did you give Yip for pivot to spindle distance on the 10.5i? I found that 256 mm was right on for mine. Just wondered because it seems others have found the specs to be off. I don't think you spent $100 for nothing. Even if it turns out the same you get the piece of mind of double checking. Isn't that what audio nervousa is all about?
256mm is the right number for PS. You simply can't get any more accurate than your own measurement. But this is only 1/2 of the question, what about the overhang? If VPI got their PS distance wrong initially, do you trust the 15mm overhang quoted on their website?
I did call VPI and talked to Mike who confirmed the 15 mm overhang and 271mm effective length so I trust it as much as I can. Yip seemed to have some hesitancy concerning these values. Maybe he was just being careful. Maybe(probably)he's seen this thread. Anyway, I'm just being a compulsive double checker. I'll probably struggle with that habit all my life.
Thanks for your concern Sonofjim... Actually, he gave me the figures 256mm with a 15mm overhang, and gave me a link to the VPI website that said that very same thing. Thanks again. Stan
I have actually called Mike too. He told me that I can use overhang between 15mm and 16mm. The 16mm will sound better with classical music - so go figure..:)
Doug,it's hard for me to believe "you" of all people are going to "need" something else that will allow you to fine tune your set-up any more than it already is !!
I already got the impression that you have the eye of a Bald Eagle,and the hands of a Vascular Surgeon.Not to mention the amazing degree of "Doug-osity",which is defined as audio knowledge on par with Michael Phelps' swimming ability!Ok,maybe I'm getting carried away...."that one" may belong to Raul!
So,why waste the money...go buy a few nice bottles of Barolo or a nice Australian Shiraz...."Downunder" can help with the wine selection -:)
Trust me,once under the influence of a half bottle you'll hear a big improvement in sound.Paul can knock off the other half!
I traded in the Freickert for a Shunyata power chord in Singapore at the Adelphi last week. Got a pretty good deal loosing only 30% over a month or so. This was possible coz the MintLP arrived, again via Singapore, last week.Aligning my Rega RB 1000 with the MintLP was a two stage process. On day one got the overhang right(this is the easier bit). On day two adjusted the offset( or rather the lack of it) spot on. Yip supplied a 5X magnifying glass along with the 10X loupe.Its a pretty ingenious device coz you use parallax to get the alignment of the cantilever spot on.I was not too comfortable with the loupe and used the magnifying glass that comes with a tiny light bulb. Did it sound better? Definitely. Using my standard reference demo lp - Amanda McBroom "Dreaming" achieved an all round smoothness( not sure if thats an appropriate audiophile term but it best describes what I felt)that I have not come anywhere close to achieving with my vinyl rig and its pretty close to what I think the vinyl magic is all about. I can only strongly endorse and echo what Stiltskin and others have said on this thread about the MintLP : its an outstanding product. Apart from obvious and significant sonic benefits its a great feeling to know that your cartridge is set up just right. Out of curiosity compared the alignment with the cardboard protractor supplied by Rega. Now this is the interesting bit : the alignment was identical!!
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