External hard drives and sound quality

Kijanki, I agree with your last post but there are some things in the second to last that I take exception to. Nobody has even hinted that the drives are corrupting the data. Both you and Mapman use that as some sort of proof that the drives can't alter the sound when nobody has suggested that is the reason. It is like Mr Stacy said, I said, and even you alluded to in your last post; there are things that can affect the sound that we don't understand. Stating all hard drives sound the same because they all deliver the same bits ignores all else. OK, I said that before and yet I still get bits is bits tossed at me so evidently I'm not getting my point across.

BTW I don't use any feedback in my amps and think they sound wonderful.

So Russian fleas respond to a verbal commands? I would like to see that :>)

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All of a sudden in the last week the sound in my headset has gone to hell. Used to be absolutely great! Now, a lot of clipping or static around the edges of the music. Could my External HD be acting up or could it be the Toslink "Out" from the Mac Pro? Maybe the answer is here in this thread. I use iTunes which has always served me well.

So when my investment house calculates the interest on my portfolio, all other things being equal, does one computer drive give a different number than another? Or is this unknown, not understood phenomena involving different hard drives only discernible by audiophiles with highly resolving systems?

Herman - Russian fleas are very special.
I would go back to my example with Benchmark DAC1. Even if jitter rejection of this DAC would be perfect people would still claim that it is not, because different drives sound different (read info from CD differently). I don't have any problem with that as long as people don't make conclusion that Benchmark is jitter sensitive.

In your case when exactly same data lands inside of processor memory it has to be outputted same way. Sound might be different - I don't question your hearing but not because of the fact that data delivered to DAC is different.

So many other things might affect test. We often forget about noise created by dimmer switches or the fact that radio stations have to cut power in half around 6PM (FCC regulation) or about warm-up of the gear.

The only thing I know for sure is that data delivered to D/A converter will be exactly same with different drives if they use exactly same file. Other than that I agree that they might sound different for the reason of electrical noise or ground loops (or something else) that affect analog section of the system.

Kijanki, I think we are in agreement on this. When we get out of the realm of low to mid fi systems where it is very easy for most of us to hear a difference and for the most part we can agree on which sounds better; we get into the upper end systems where it starts to become a matter of preference rather than right or wrong and a lot of what may be a subtle or even inconsequential difference to one might be a deal breaker for another. One who is a big fan of vocal music and focuses on midrange purity may be oblivious to abnormalities in the bass region that a fan of rock and roll would find horrendous.

Onhwy61, if you had followed the thread you would know that nobody here is arguing that the data is corrupted, only that there may be some other mechanism in play that affects the sound of the system. Having a computer add 2 and 2 to get 4 when it doesn't really matter how long it takes to come up with the answer within reason is much different than processing data in real time to produce audio.

Puerto, play some files from your internal drive to see whether or not it is the external. You can get a cheap toslink for a few bucks that will tell you if the fiber is defective. Try your headphones and DAC and whatever else with a different computer. Continue in that vein until you isolate the problem.

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Thanks Herman for pitching in since this thread took off in the last 24 hours.

If somebody does hear a difference in sound by changing disk drives or their connection type, it is not because the data is coming back differently from the disk which would be an obvious reason for change in sound. I think everybody should agree on that. And that was my point.

The contention point, just like so many others in the audio world, is that some people claim they heard a difference. So it's just a matter of did they really hear a difference or just remember incorrectly. Since you can only hear one at a time, the comparison has to made from memory. So far, from what I've done personally and read about, nobody's memory of audio is accurate enough to be trusted as "correct". A large part of the audio world is based on the opposite to be true. No problem. It brings great enjoyment for some and $$$ for many manufacturers.

If you are going to use a PC for a "high quality" digital front end, you really should not be doing D/A in it. Send the PCM stream to an external Firewire or Asynchronous USB based DAC. That way nothing needs a clock till it gets from the memory buffer to the DAC chip inside a "non-noisy" enclosure.

Also, Kijanki brought up a good point about different drives could contain slightly different rips/encodes. That is possible, but I wouldn't think ripping a CD to a .wav file or lossless file would come out so differently that it would produce audible differences. But for "testing" the same source audio file should be copied to the various disk devices to rule out any issues.

And for a little OT, if any of you are Beatles fans and have not seen/heard Cheap Trick perform Sgt. Peppers, make sure you get the DVD or CD. It's awesome!

"If you are going to use a PC for a "high quality" digital front end, you really should not be doing D/A in it. Send the PCM stream to an external Firewire or Asynchronous USB based DAC. That way nothing needs a clock till it gets from the memory buffer to the DAC chip inside a "non-noisy" enclosure."

Agree with that and suggest network players (wired or wireless)designed specifically for home audio use is another very good way to isolate the DAC process from the inherently noisy PC environment, which CAN affect the analog domain if the DAC process occurs there.

Interestingly, I have a few CDRs that I recorded from internet radio via analog output from my computer to system and CD recorder early on a couple years back. When I listen to these today along side everything else, they are noise free and hold up pretty well.

However, I think in general analog output from a potentially noisy computer can be problematic so I think that isolating the DAC process as mentioned is a best practice even though good results might still be had.

There are plenty of grey areas for end users in the arena of upper end audio, let alone the now addition of industrial appliances like personal confusers we want to add to the presiding mix.

Trial and error and A versus B versus C etc, still shines the best light towards gaining both exp and performance increases. In the best of scenarios I think we can only emulate and never duplicate the exp of one members trials in some other members situation. So we approximate and consider different approaches.

The only points then of contention are Empirical evidence . Not those of subjective association. In every area other than purely measured evidentiary relms, we must at times agree to disagree, or merely accept those results for what they are unique individual experiences that likely can not be duplicated or replicated. The truth then lays with the perception of the beholder.

Any closer or further insights then will come directly from the attempt to emulate someone else’s particular scenario as best one can for all practical intents and purposes .. or those results can be simply accepted as that person’s unique findings, as I previously indicated. Nothing more.

Unless we can put a clock on it or a meter.. or some other widely accepted measuring apparatus it’s all hearsay and not point of fact reasoning. Arguing such a thing then seems fruitless for seldom does every party have likewise past events in common or even in recent memory.

True too, even measured events can be argued on several points.

At those instances, perhaps it is best to input “Oh yeah? How about that! Good for you. Maybe I’ll check that out myself someday more closely.” Or some such yada yada stuff.

It’s very likely too, there’s an element of truth in each account.

FWIW

Once folks begin to view the PC/Mac as an actual high end audio or video component instead of just a ‘pc’, and address it as such as mentioned somewhat here in this thread, your listening experience and operating performance will, or can be elevated.

Ever try opening up the tower’s case by simply removing the side cover? I do it to all my boxes. It reduces the ‘electrical’ noise level . Though not the rest of the noises it makes such as the video cards fan, drives etc. If outside the listening room in a closet or something, this does indeed help to that one end.

Putting a layer of thin closed cell foam on it if left in place will help reduce it’s overall ambient noise factor too. Simply adding or laying material over the top and either side of the tower will deaden it’s noise level too. the esthetic there however is up to the owner, as to just what they’re willing to do or how fancy they’ll get.

Another approach some projector owners use for their more noisey projectors are “hush boxes”. Enclosures such as those seem to me to have enough worth to nvestigate for those whose drives and/or computers reside in the listening environment itself, and not in some ‘sequestered’ area.

At every turn we get to ask ourselves repeatedly, the same question, “Just how deep down the rabbit hole are we going to go this time for this change or replacement, or addition to our system?”

As for outright ambient or back ground noise levels in drives Every online or big box store I’ve done any buying from has a return policy. Buy one and try it. If noisey send it back and try another. The actual degree of noise given off from one unit to another these days is so minimal as to not be critical.

If the noise level is critical the owner MUST then take additional measures to amend things. Eg., above.

Lots of long posts here on this thread...

I'm in the middle of testing an external drive again (as I had over a year ago with a Dell laptop). This time, with a macbook.

Both times (with the Dell and now the Macbook), the external drive made a difference for the better. And others on other forums say the same thing. I can a/b pretty easily by loading up the external drive's library in Itunes and then loading up the internal drive again for comparison of the same music.

I wouldn't take my word (or Blindjim's or Mapman's for that matter), you will have to try it for yourself. Drives are fairly cheap.

BTW, I do think it is a good idea to use an external hard drive for music files for various practical reasons.

For one thing it offloads the file access from the internal drive which is where OS and other files needed for basic computer operation resides. THis generally should result in better throughput (data can be read faster). IT also is safer to have a drive dedicated to music files in case the computers drive has to be rebuilt for some other reason.

It is also possible that some playback software could take liberties with sound quality as a means of dealing with delays in reading disk data which is more likely in general if the files are stored internally. I do not know specifically of a music playback program that does this, but it is certainly possible, and not a solution that audiophiles would take to. There are other ways to handle this but sometimes a computer can get so bogged down with various processing that goes on in the background, that all the bits are not availble in time when needed for playback.

So in general, using an external drive for music files can be considered a best practice I believe (I do it) even though the same data files with the exact same amount of musical information is available regardless of storage location. Its just the safest and most practical approach to take.

BTW, using a networked music player, like the Rokus in my system or Logitech Squeezebox, absolutely makes the origin of the music files a moot point in regards to sound quality. These are essentially dedicated, optimized, computer devices designed specifically to play back music. They cache the data locally in memory for fast, optimal access when needed and then forward bits on to the DAC (internal or external) in real time without issue. The only issue that can occur with these is a weak network data connection from server to network music player, and/or a slow running server, which together may result in the bits not being cached and ready to go when needed. The result in this case is a silent delay in playing until all the needed bits are cached. Sound quality is for sure not compromised when playing though.

If you use computer for anything else (I do) - use Firewire interface instead of USB. USB is loading main processor while Firewire is a little more intelligent and has own processor that handles transfers - less load on main uP. I also think that daisy chaining in Firewire is cleaner/better than USB hub. Firewire cable cannot be longer than 15ft (10ft for USB). Extra 5ft might be important if you want to hide disk (noise).

Granite Digital offers firewire cables that include a number of special design provisions that are claimed to make possible lengths up to 32 feet. They offer 1394A and 1394B cables in that length for $90 to $100. I have no experience with them, although I've used some of their other products (with good results). Datasheet pdf's are linked to here.

Also, firewire hubs and repeaters are widely available, which can also be used to extend firewire connection lengths.

Best regards,
-- Al

Alright. This kind of applies here. I have a Sonos player and I stream my NAS drive through it. Just about 30 minutes ago I upgraded the coax cable to the modem and replaced every ethernet cable in the chain to CAT6 patch cables of 8 feet each. The sound improvment was insane. I just wanted to be able to get all the info through with ease. I wasn't expecting an audible difference. Now I have some serious bass response. And everything seems just... more fluid... like it isnt even trying anymore. It ranks with one of my best upgrades so far. $21 worth of patch cables and a $12 quad-shielded coax. Awesome. Wonder if a gigabit router would make a difference. ????

Hi
I have a P4 based system with Windows XP SP3 OS and use cics memory player ( CMP2 ) for highest quality music playback.

I use EAC to rip CDs to hard disk and have a 40G SATA connected internal drive and have just added a Western Elements 1 Tb external drive that is powered via AC and connected via USB.

I started ripping to new drive and played back a few albums and thought somethings a miss here, a bit harsher sounding, less real and involving....

so re-ripped a track to each drive for an exact test comparison...'Bennie and the Jets' as I was ripping Elton John's 'Goodbye Yellow Brick Road'.

In CMP2, track is loaded from hard disk to RAM and all playback is from 'RAM', even so the differences are clear, my internal Seagate drive sounds..more more information, more presense, and more emotionally involving, rythmic and listenable, engaging...

by comparison the external drive was as aforementioned previously above......so differences could be cable related, usb as opposed to sata this being compounded as remember music is first copied then resent from the hard drive back along the cable for another journey before playback, or power supply, or internal electronic makeup of the drives, and/or any combination of these factors...

so in my system, which also includes a NAD304 Amplifier, DAC
is SB Audigy 24bit internal sound card, Cardas interlink up to amplifier and some custom 3 way in-wall speakers, there are sound quality differences.

:) Stephen

Doesn't seem like you've read any of the previous posts.

I have another question concerning external hard drives and sound quality. What if I was using a USB DAC without external power? Will a hard drive on another USB port affect the voltage given to my DAC which in turn can degrade sound quality?

From my experience of external hard drives I have went for SSD drives because they produce far less jitter than the old platter type drives as they have no moving parts. Also I would use USB with a reclocker as that is also far superior to wireless but good luck in whatever you chose because you shall come up against many detractors as that is the way of the beast I'm afraid.