EverSolo DMP-A8 with Denafrips Pontus 15th, both have i2S

Provided the DDC has a better clock than the DAC you should hear a bigger soundstage and better defined bass, not huge but it’s there. But I would just wait and see how your i2S interface works for you first.n By all means get a good I2s cable, I like Tubulous.

I believe the I2s interface will use the streamer clock when connecting to your dac.  If your dac has a better clock than your streamer you might be able to configure it to use the dac clock.  Otherwise, you are losing performance.  If you use a ddc, the denafrips ddcs at least do not have an I2s input, you will need to connect the streamer to ddc via some other connection.  The clock in the Hermes ddc is better than the clock in the Pontus dac so you should get improvement as @fthompson251 suggests.  Is any of this worth the money and time, only you, your ears, and wallet can answer.  I have a Hermes ddc connected to my Pontus II and it was worth it to me.  I noticed improvements in soundstage, imaging, transients, and bass response.  All good things.

Thanks for the replies. So, If the Pontus i2S input is used, the Pontus clock is completely bypassed? Interesting, much more to think about now. In further research about the DMP-A8 i2S output, they claim it is a good DDC with Dual High Precision Clocks, quoting, 2 ultra-low phase noise femtosecond high-precision clocks for audio decoding circuit (45.1584MHz and 49.152MHz) etc.... Probably not as good as a Denafrips DDC, but maybe worth a try.

As has been pointed out; if the clock in the DMP-A8 isn't as good as that in the Pontus, or indeed a Denafrips DDC, by using I2S out of the streamer in to the Pontus could mean you maybe actually losing performance not gaining any. 

Whether the clock in the DMP-A8 is better that those in the Denafrips DDCs, or the Pontus 15th I suppose is the question 

Well, I guess for the short term I should use USB from DMP-A8 to Pontus 15? That is if I can't hear a difference? I appreciate all information, whether it's good news or bad.

What should I be listening for, to compare two different DDC’s. I know this is probably a loaded question, and not sure if there is a good answer. Just reaching out and trying to learn.

Why would you want a DDC?  Use I2S from the A8 straight to Pontus.   Less is more!   In my case, I'm very happy with direct I2S from my A8 to a Harmony DAC.

If the clock in the A8 is a femtoclock then it’s not as good as the ddc.  Likely a toss up to the clock in the Pontus.  The ddc clock, at least in the Hermes and above is an OCXO (oven controlled crystal oscillator, which) clock which is much better.  The Iris uses a TCXO (temperature controlled).  The control of the temp of the clock greatly increases performance in terms of reducing jitter.

Comparing ddcs I would listen to the aspects that were mentioned previously, soundstage, imaging, transients, bass response.  Even treble and midrange response can improve with a ddc.  Noise floor is also lower with the ddc.  You really just need to listen critically and decide what you like but certainly pay attention to the things listed above.

@mbolek makes a fair point, a ddc is often used to clean up USB signals.  That is why I have one as I stream using a MacBook Pro.  Given that your streamer has I2s output you may not gain much with the ddc.  You would be getting s much better clock with the ddc but then using a different output from the streamer which would involve conversions to I2s format when outputting from the ddc to the dac.  The clock might be worth the effort though, timing is significant in the digital world.

Thanks, I'm looking forward to trying everything out. I don't have a problem purchasing a Denafrips DDC if it comes down to it. I realize this is a hobby, and striving for a great sound.

mbolek, I'm glad to hear you have an A8, and i2S is working well with your Harmony. I'm hoping to find a user with A8 and Pontus to ask what Pontus i2S settings they use? I thought I heard one person say, when configuring,  1x on 4x on?

In looking at the specs for both DMP-A8 and Pontus 15th, I think the new Pontus 15th has the same Fentosecond clock as the DMP-A8. I will try evaluating them both ways, USB vs i2S. If I can’t tell a difference, is there a theoretical idea that would favor one or the other? I would think i2S would be the way to proceed if I can’t hear a difference?

If they both sound the same to you then it doesn’t really matter but I would stick with I2S.  The USB connection should utilize the DACs clock instead of the A8 so any difference you hear could be attributable to that as well.

Just so I understand further, feeding the Pontus with USB vs i2S, this only affects which device controls the clock (with USB, the Pontus controls the clock, with i2S the A8 controls the clock). And, to further understand, In either way, the Pontus DAC is utilized. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Just so I understand further, feeding the Pontus with USB vs i2S, this only affects which device controls the clock (with USB, the Pontus controls the clock, with i2S the A8 controls the clock).

Yes but you may notice one sounds better than the other to you.

And, to further understand, In either way, the Pontus DAC is utilized. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

If you are using a digital output from the A8 the Pontus is doing the digital to analog conversion. So in both case of usb and I2S, as both are digital outputs bypassing the internal dac of the A8, yes the Pontus dac is utilized.

Thanks!

@tom899  hope you enjoy the Pontus 15th; I've had mine since June. I also moved from an Ares (12th-1). I don't think you'll be disappointed 👍

Let us know what you think once it's arrived

Happy Listening 👍😊

@jastralfu @tom899 my understanding as well is that USB and I2S interfaces are clocked by the DAC.

A DDC between source and DAC is normally for “cleaning up” and improving USB input, most often from PC as streaming or SSD source. While a streamer like EverSolo is also a computer inside a box, streamers are designed for one purpose and don’t have same noise levels as a PC feeding a DAC by USB. From what I’ve read, EverSolo is an excellent product, likely well designed and implemented, so I doubt a DDC clock in between would make much of an audible difference.
 

Clocks, from good, better to best are FEMTO, TCXO, OCXO. I have a Pontus II 12th (FEMTO) fed by an IRIS (TXCO) via I2S from a dedicated fan-less silent miniPC via USB. I can tell a pretty significant difference with the IRIS in the chain, call it 10-15% better. Darker background, more soundstage depth and detail.  It may be confirmation bias, but I was also able to discern a difference (better by 10%) when I had a Topping D90LE (FEMTO) in the chain.  The Topping was best in class SINAD when released, a very transparent, clean, no coloration presentation. I don’t consider darker backgrounds, details and soundstage depth to be color, bur definitely improvement!  

However, like you I prefer the sound signature of the Denafrips R2R NOS. The Denafrips website states the Pontus 15th has LPNO crystal oscillators (don’t know where that fits in the good, better, best!) that reclock the signal to reduce jitter.  So I think you’d be getting better clocking than from the EverSolo, even though the source usually conrols timing, at least with USB input.  Also, it doesn’t look like the Pontus 15th has world clock inputs, so I’m not sure you could synch the  Pontus 15th with a world clock DDC like you can with the Venus or Terminator. 

Conclusion, I think you’ll be very happy streaming the EverSolo bypassing its DAC to the Pontus 15th! 

@kairosman i don’t think that is true.  I run I2s from my ddc into my dac and the ddc clocks the signal.  That’s, among other things, what the ddc is for, much better clock than my dac.  Given that scenario, I believe the A8 is clocking the signal.  There is certainly the possibility that which clock is used is configurable within the A8 but I have no experience with that configuration or the A8.

One thing to keep in mind — i2S was not designed to travel distance and the signal degrades rapidly so you want the HDMI cable to be as short as possible.  Optimally it should be no more than a foot, but if you have to go longer go as short as possible. 

Yes, I have a DH Labs 0.5m (1’7” or 19”) cable on order. Hope this is short enough 

Should be fine 👍. I use a 60cm AQ Carbon (shortest length they make), works no problem

Thank you, appreciated!

@jastralfu so to get a definitive answer to the question about clocking, I asked Hans Beekhuyzen on his eponymous YouTube channel. His response is below.

"All ethernet devices are asynchronous and thus have no clock that is related to audio. So the streamer has to clock the incoming packets of data into an I²S stream. That will clock the internal DAC. If the connection to an external DAC is over USB, being asynchronous, the DAC has to clock the incoming packets of bits. If the connection is over AES/EBU, SPDIF, TOSlink or I²S, the streamer will clock the signal. Except when with I²S the DAC can be set to the internal clock."

I have a Gustard R26 and it can be set to use an external clock that clocks the I2S input. This is not common but not rare. I have heard somewhere that Denafrips DACs are also set to clock I2S inputs internally when slaved to their Denafrips clocks like the Aether.

Hope this clarifies things a bit, just wish digital gear manufacturers would helpfully clarify this issue in their manuals.

I'm no electrical or sound engineer but consider:

    This visual comparison to Denefrips DDC clocks is interesting.   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3SbK2kxg7X0  
     Alvin calls both Hermes and Gia clocks Oven Controlled, though I wonder if the Hermes at half the size are actually Temp controlled.  As a lexicon aside, all the Denifrips clocks are FEMTO clocks,  precision crystal, TXCO, or OCXO.
   USB, SPDIF, COAX, and the Ethernet are usually Asynchronous protocols with embedded multi-clock streaming (sorry Hans)...a DAC connected via these uses the embedded source clock in the signal at first... but the Denifrips DACs use a FPGA chip to buffer and re-clock (using the Source(sync) or DAC(async) clock) all incoming signals before R2R digital conversion...including I2s, which is Synchronous (with 2 clock channels, word and global, and the data channel).  With a synchronous connection the Source clock is used...the "source" may be the Digital transport, Streamer, or DDC.

   My ears clearly prefer the I2s sound (lower noise floor) from OPPO 83-HDMI breakout box-Pontus II 12th-Holo Bliss KTE-Susvara HPs,  though I believe it's the OPPO clock being used. Also USB is not far behind.  Probably a Hermes in the chain would clock and sound better.

A followup....I'm fluxomed, cause I use the OPPO HDMI output to the breakout box to get I2s into the Pontus so as to enjoy the DSD DAC in the Pontus to hear SACDs with a better DAC than the OPPO...depending on the recording it can be the Best Sound on the headphones. 
   The Hermes has no I2s input so I can't use its better clock (via I2s output) AND enjoy better DSD sound.  Need a DAC with two I2s inputs or a fancy Master Clock setup.  Or just forget all this OCD clock tech stuff...lol and enjoy the Music!

@tom899  So what’s the verdict?  Which connection sounds best?

This is a hard one for me to describe. It all sounds really good to me. I’m using i2S from A8 to Pontus15th. On the Pontus 15th I’ve settled on OS, and slow filter. The I2S setting on the A8 is set to Low. I do have the LHY dual LPS in the A8. Everything now has over 300 hours play time. I’m sorry I can’t give expert reviews. I do know I have never heard my system sound so good! I don’t want for anything more when it comes to my streamer and DAC.

@tom899  So what’s the verdict?  Which connection sounds best?

Ignore that last post

Thanks. I have the A8 and initially had it feeding my PrimaLuna pre into Quicksilver midmonos.  Sounded superb. I then removed the pre and now feed the QS amps directly from the A8.  Surprising to me that set up also sounds really detailed and full bodied. I have an Ares II in another system so am comfortable with the Denafrips sound. The Pontus looks like a great deal so I’m doing my homework.

tom899, 

I have the same setup as you.  I just plugged everything in a few days ago, and i have to say that I find the Pontus too bright for my ears.

I bought the Pontus because although I found the A8 to have a rich, smooth and detailed sound, I wanted a little more life in the treble.

But now I feel like there is too much and I get fatigued when I listen.  Did you encounter a burn in period?  Did the treble smooth out with less glare?  

I'm just wondering if I should return mine before the return window closes.

I just plugged everything in a few days ago, and i have to say that I find the Pontus too bright for my ears.

@pkthesublime  Give the Pontus at least 200 hours to burn in if it’s new before making any conclusions.  Also, while individual tastes can vary this is a little odd as the Pontus is not considered to be a bright sounding DAC going by both reviews and owner feedback so it may be coming from elsewhere in your system.  One thing is If you’re using i2S make sure you have the optimal pin setting on the Pontus although I kinda doubt that’s the issue but something to check nonetheless.  What’s the rest of your equipment and what cables are you using?

Denafrips DAC's require a minimum of 200 hours before they start to settle down. By 500 hours they really don't change much, and they have ebbs and flows along the way. But yes. brightness is common early. My Terminator 15th was a bit bright at first, it took quite a while to smooth out. Along the way bass got better, soundstage grew and the midrange smoothed out too. I had a Venus II before the Terminator, which is pretty much what the Pontus 15th is now. I loved that DAC, it's very good. Just give the Pontus time.

Thanks so much for the guidance!

I guess the question is, how bright was your Terminator before it settled down?  I listened to the Pontus on Saturday and Sunday.  It's Wednesday and my ears still hurt, so I'm just concerned about just how much it could potentially smooth out.

Regarding my setup, the A8 is streaming to the Pontus I2S input via an AudioQuest Forest HDMI cable.  The XLR cables out to my Yamaha receiever and from the receiver to my Parasound Halo A21 amp are AudioQuest Red River.  The amp feeds my Sonus Faber Sonettos. I think the only potential weak link cable wise is the power cable I picked up for the Pontus, it is an AudioQuest NRG-X3.

I also tried a Toslink connection from the A8 to the Pontus as a reference.  It is bright as well.  To my ears, the I2S input showed a slight bit more three dimensionality, detail and fullness.

At this point, the soundstage is very deep and full bodied.  Lots of goosebump inducing sparkle in the treble.  The bass is good, although not quite as present as the A8.  Also not quite as detailed as the A8.  Just too bright.  Not way, way bright, but definitely fatigue inducing, although my abused eardrums may be a bit sensitive at this stage in life.

Tonight I'm going to try RCA out and see if that makes a difference.  And I ordered USB and coaxial cables to try tomorrow. I've read in a couple different threads that USB worked the best on the Pontus.

@pkthesublime  What Yamaha receiver are you using?  That’s a red flag.  Also, how long is the HDMI cable?

It's the RXA-3080.  Getting a little long in the tooth now, but it passes the signal "straight" with no EQ applied, balanced XLR in and balanced XLR out.

The HDMI cable is way longer than 1 foot, I think it's 2 meters (it was an open box special!).

@pkthesublime  Yeah, the Yammy does not belong between your otherwise nice DAC and amp — it’s a big bottleneck to better performance and is certainly not helping here.  Preamps matter big time, and the pre in your AVR (and almost all AVRs) is garbage relatively speaking. Getting a dedicated stereo pre with an HT bypass should be #1 on your upgrade priority list. And that’s way too long for an i2S cable — not sure how much that’s contributing but in any event it’s not good.  You might want to try this 1 foot cable just for reference purposes as it’s only 7 bucks.  I use something very similar with satisfying results although I’ll be upgrading soon.  Sorry, don’t mean to sound harsh and just trying to help and provide some hopefully useful info.

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=24187

@soix Not at all, I really appreciate the feedback! I agree in principle and would like to upgrade my Yammy.  In this instance, I know it is not helping but I'm not sure how much it is hurting because if it was really bad the A8 would sound like ass also, and it sounds really good. 

I isolated the I2S input by switching to Toslink, and got similar results, so I ordered a USB and Coaxial cable to try those as well. If those don't fare any better I will jump on your 1' HDMI suggestion!  Thanks so much for that.

@pkthesublime  

I know it is not helping but I'm not sure how much it is hurting because if it was really bad the A8 would sound like ass also, and it sounds really good. 

My bad, you’re absolutely right so probably not worth trying my HDMI cable idea.  Thinking you’re gonna get similar results with the other cables as well but worth a try.  Right now I think we’re back to burn in🤞, and if it’s not more tame after 200 hours I’m honestly perplexed here.  

@soix I'm also gonna try RCA output from the Pontus to isolate that as well.  In theory it should sound worse, but I figure why not rule that out.

I was doing some A/B testing with the Pontus and A8 tonight.  My top two choices for brightness testing are anything from Miles Davis in the sixties and anything from Bob Dylan in the sixties or early seventies:  Those high trumpet and harmonica notes get grating really fast on a bright system.

I was playing Carole King on the Pontus, and the soundstage for the vocals was so impressive - deep, three dimensional and slightly forward.  One thing that caught my ear, though, was her voice sounded a bit thin at the top end, almost like the file was being stretched too far.  Is it just me, or is that common on this kind of highly resolving DAC?  It is an old recording, although I have a 192k version of the album.

Playing the same track on the A8, Carole King's voice didn't suffer from the same thinness, but neither did she have the stage presence of the Pontus. I feel like the A8 pushes the treble back and wide, so it is never really in your face.  I guess that is why I can turn it up fairly loud and play it for hours.  But you don't really get the oomph, that emotionality.

My $.02.

@pkthesublime  I suppose it’s possible the Pontus is just revealing the limitations of those older recordings rather than glossing over their flaws.  If the Pontus sounds better on higher quality recordings it seems you have a decision to make if further break in doesn’t solve the issue.  BTW, are you listening in NOS mode?

I am listening in NOS mode, I heard that would provide the warmest presentation.  Do you think the OS would be warmer?

The Pontus is equally adept with 44.1k files - no problem there!  It's really just the brightness that is troubling me.

@pkthesublime No you’re good in NOS.  OS can sound a little brighter, which is why I was asking.  Rooting for some break in magic!

@soix @fthompson251 

So my cheapie USB cable showed up today and I conected the A8 and the Pontus with it.  

HOLY SCHNIKEYS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I had heard glimpses of what the Pontus could do with the I2S and Toslink connections, but this was completely transformative.  The soundstage was indeed holographic.  The treble was sweet, and just like people say, just north of being too relaxed.  My recordings came alive like never before.  Such depth, such musicality. I was blown away, it completely exceeded my expectations.  And this is only Day 5!!  You guys all say it is going to improve.  I am completely stoked. Needless to say, this guy is not going back.  Just ordered an AudioQuest Cinammon USB for tomorrow as well to upgrade that element.

@pkthesublime  Congrats!  So glad to hear, and Goodonya for going through the effort to try other cables/inputs.