UPDATE: OK, here it is over four months after my speaker first went bad, and I'm finally back from Kentucky country with a supposedly fixed-up speaker (I haven't unpacked it yet, but of course it was tested by the factory before I left). It turned out to have *both* a bad woofer *and* a bad crossover, the former possibly a result of the latter. The rasping tweeter on the other side was swapped by me for the one in the dead speaker back when this all first happened, so I also got a new tweeter installed by the fatory.
As usual, Thiel service was great, and I got to take a factory tour, which I'll post about separately. I also found out that the problem with my 2.2's crossover is a common one involving an under-spec'ed resistor, and I'll make another new post alerting folks to that situation. Now I just have to make the resistor upgrade preemptively to the other speaker, and then get on with the business of re-breaking everything in again.
During the intervening time, I must say that I got very used to listening in mono (my amplification is monoblock, a necessity for this usage when you're talking tubes and only have one speaker available - a stereo tube amp cannot be run with one channel's output left unconnected to a speaker load). This is a little easier for me than for many of you, as I am a big listener to vintage 45's and mono LP's. I think I might actually wind up missing this, 'cause it does have its advantages, which I'll also post about in a separate new thread.
Anyway, after so many various delays in our being able to make this trip, my girlfriend and I did at least manage to turn it into a week-long vacation. Eastern and central Kentucky (Thiel is based in Lexington) have wonderful terrain, and the state maintains a particularly good network of large wilderness parks, many complete with extensive hiking trails, campsite facilities, and even several very nice (but inexpensive) park lodges. There are impressive gorges, mountain ranges, waterfalls, natural sandstone 'bridges', cliffs, caves, and other features of interest to visit, both in KY and in West Virginia and southwestern Virginia. Living in the DC area, I was already familiar with the better-known Blue Ridge and Shenandoah areas of the Appalachians, as well as the more distant Smokies of the Carolinas and Tennessee, but this area was new to me, and I will certainly be going back someday for more.
Of course, you know I scored my fair share of old vinyl in thrifts and fleas while I was there! And of special interest to sound freaks, we also visited what is billed as the world's largest all-wooden cathedral, the Buckhorn log church remotely situated in the small town of the same name. Built entirely of oak planks and beams (without even nails - all the joinery is wooden) in the rustic Scandinavian style by a wealthy transplanted New Yorker during the early 1900's, it has what looked to be about 40' high ceilings and contains a fairly large antique pipe organ moved from Philadelphia. We didn't get to hear the organ play, much less the choir sing - the church is unheated and doesn't open for regular use until later in the season - but talking and walking around inside the building it's clear this place has an amazing and unique acoustic. Too bad the man who admitted us told us when I asked him that no commercial recordings have ever been made there though. |
Rest assured, I catch as much live music as I can year 'round, but there's a lot less I'm interested in seeing these days than was the case 10, 15 or 20 years ago. Part of that has to do with the venue situation where I am, but mostly is just because I'm not into a whole lot of what's being made today. Still, I probably average a show every month or two - not as much as I'd like, but as much as I can stand. C'est la vie. |
Z...go catch some LIVE music this winter. You'll be respirited I'm sure. Works for me! Ern |
Thanks for asking, Maxgain. Both I and the folks at Thiel were away over the holidays. Next week, I will arrange to bring the speaker to Lexington, Kentucky for crossover repairs and a factory tour at our earliest mutual convenience. Harmonic Technology will replace all the connectors on my set of Magic One Links with their 'new & improved' variety for $25 each plus shipping, or about $110. I believe I will probably take the opportunity to have my VTL mono's upgraded while the system is down, so who knows when I'll be with stereo again. To tell you the truth, I'm kind of enjoying not having the system imposing itself on my life on a regular basis. I find myself musing a bit these days about just chucking the whole rig once it's working again and returning to the simpler life...yeah, right. |
Zaikesman, you ever get things working? |
Maybe you can leave it in your will? |
Well, that would depend on whether, if I see JT and get to ask a question, he answers with "If I tell you that, I'll have to kill you".
:-) |
Zaikesman, I hope I can count on you to share what ever you learn. Good luck. |
Maxgain, Thiel would seem to have learned much since those times - which is of course not at all surprising. Unsound, I hope if I go there and take the tour, that some of these issues of conjecture might be able to have a small amount of light shed on them. |
Maxgain, yes there was a 5 (and 5i), it didn't use an equalizer but instead more drivers in a much bigger box as Sean suggested. The 5 was considerably more expensive. My favorite Thiels all seem to be sealed boxes. |
Yes Unsound I am suprised. It was just that they were talking about a higher priced speaker than the Three(whatever version it was at the time). I felt that at least the EQ that they used at the time degraded the overall performance.It suprised me that they were so dumbfounded that anyone said that they could hear the performance loss the thing introduced. Yes, the sound was bass shy without it but everything else improved dramaticly. At least they looked into improving the EQ for future use. Was there a CS5 at anytime in their line?
Yes, Tom is Jim's brother, but he did seem to have something to do with the development process. He was asking dealers opinioins of what they would like to see in a more expensive speaker from them in the near future. When I asked for one with no EQ he just stared at me in disbelief for a while, it was sort of uncomfortable. They beleived that it was totaly transparent. I didn't. Don't get me wrong, I like the people at Thiel and I like their products. |
Sean, I agree with you re: sealed boxes sans equalization and extra size, how ever digital equalization may offer us a chance to "tune to the room" and do it with out the compromises that used to come the old fashioned analog way, what new compromises it adds is yet to be seen.
Zaikesman, yes it was the subwoofer that I was refering to. There has been rumous that Jim Thiel is considering many options for a furture state of the art project (read expensive) some of which include digital EQ, self powered and even omni directional. |
Unsound, I might use the downtime to have amps modded anyway, so this could happen. Sean, any thoughts about the question of the amp's part in this? Could it be guiltless on its own, but have passed a signal that damaged the crossover, and still be OK?
Maxgain, is Tom Thiel Jim Thiel's brother? I thought JT's brother only handled the cabinet-finishing aspect of the company.
Unsound already knows that I found my 2.2's superior in all ways to the 3.5's, but I don't really know whether part of that advantage can be laid at the feet of the 3.5's EQ box. I personally doubt that the speaker would have sounded any better to me without the bass boost, since the 2.2 had more articulate bass anyway, but I guess it's possible some additional transparency would have been audible. (It's always interesting to me that no one seems to feel that Merlin's BAM EQ module compromises their speaker in this way, and I believe that is a vented design.) Unsound, is the Thiel offering using digital EQ that you mention the subwoofer or another HT product? |
You don't need an equalizer for a sealed box if it is done right. That is, if you don't mind big drivers in big boxes : ) Sean
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Maxgain, you may be surprised to know that Thiel's latest offering includes electronic equalization though this time it's in the digital domain. As for me, I think Thiel's 3.5 was one of their best efforts, and that one came with an equalizer. Yes, the equalizer was discernable, yes it was the weakest part of the design, but, in the end the design was better for it. While it did add a burden to the amplification stage, it made for a better system over all. I for one hope that Thiel reconsiders the use of equalizers in future designs. IMHO, a sealed box with an equalizer is preferable to ports and passive radiators. |
You Thiel owners can thank me in part that your speakers don't have those stupid electronic bass EQ boxes(ala Bose 901) that the old Threes had. I had sort of an argument with Tom Thiel back in the late eighties and Las Vegas CES about the fact that the EQ box screwed up the sound. He claimed you could not detect the "sound" of the EQ in the system. I claimed that a child could detect it! They were talking to dealers about producing a larger model than the Three, and I insisted that they do away with the "box"! It took some convincing but at least I got them to consider that the box "might" degrade the sound. I think no one had ever brought it up to them before as Tom seemed very suprised by this sugestion. The short part is, no more Thiels with electronic bass EQ. You are welcome. |
BTW, I'm not suggesting that you mislead the good people at Thiel, especially saint Shari. I just wouldn't offer them anything unecessary. |
Perhaps an independent evaluation of your amp might be in order? |
Well, I was mum about the circumstances when I spoke to Sherry, but I don't want to hook up a fixed speaker to bad amplifier either, and neither do I want to seem to come out with a bunch of additional late information based on what they tell me from diagnoses. I feel I trust them enough to make their decision based solely off of what their tech sees inside the speaker, but I can wait and see if there is some additional comment here first. |
Zaikesman, perhaps saying nothing might be prudent untill Thiel gives you their opinion . |
I don't know if Thiel will look at it that way, Unsound. I'm not really sure if they're refering to the presence of DC current or what. I'm not sure what can actually happen at the speaker when an intermittent connection causes a fault or burst of noise in front of the amplifier (if this is what happened - as I said, the system didn't sound right before I started playing around back there, so I don't really know the sequence of events for sure, but the interconnect in question must have had the problem before I discovered it). Since the amp employs capacitor coupling, I don't know whether if a substantial DC output was the case, it could have implications for the amp. Anyone? I could see if a tech at Thiel has a take on this issue. |
Zaikesman, aren't your Thiels recommended for use with amps up to 250 watts into 8 ohms. Did you pump over 500 watts into their lower than 4 Ohm load? |
Sherry at Thiel has said that it probably is possible for me to schedule a repair appointment in advance, then bring the speaker to the factory myself on the morning of the appointed day and be able to take it away repaired at day's end. Concurrent with that she offered a factory tour. The bad news is that if the tech determines that the crossover was damaged due to an input signal overload (very likely), then there's no warranty coverage. |
I am very lucky to have never been unemployed. I did once have to take a month off sick ... that's when I found out the true horrors of daytime TV. |
Spoken like one who knows... :-) |
I've come to the conclusion that daytime television is an industry conspiracy to force the masses to go out to work. If mortgage, car and health payments aren't enough, then daytime telly will surely drive you out the door and seeking gainful employment. |
Tell me about it - if my girlfriend's in the house, the cable is on. I don't mind if it's a good old movie, TV Land, a science documentary, or even the news, but usually it's The Style Channel, Trading Spaces, MTV, Oprah, or Dr. Phil. I tell you, it's enough to make me seriously consider quitting paying for all this crap - if it weren't for the sports and TCM, and an occasional "Behind The Music". I can't decide what's more of a wasteland, cable TV or rock radio. As for Xmas however, I'll be at the beach and won't have to worry. :-)
Anyway, I'm mulling over taking a road trip with the speaker in the van to Lexington - it's not *too* far away (I'm in suburban DC), I'll spend less on gas than I will on shipping (as long as I take the sleeping bag and crash in the back, but the cost balance probably tips if I wind up wanting a bed and a shower), won't have to worry about the shipping gremlins or gorillas, and I'll get to go through the mountains and eat roadside BBQ. Problem is, I'd have to do it twice if Thiel can't prearrange to service the speaker the day I'm there. Then again, that would be twice as many opportunities (and excuses) to look for old records at country fleas'n'thrifts! Now, where are my overalls... |
sorry to hear about the fried crossover. Hope you get it fixed soon. Being without music is no fun at all. Heck .. you might have to watch TV over Xmas ... how's that for torture ! |
Well, this about seals it - the impedance of the affected speaker measures over 25 ohm (with all the drivers installed), the other one about 4 ohms as intended. BTW, I've learned my lesson about digressing too much on a thread I've posted where I might eventually want some more advice - I seem to have effectively driven everybody away! Oh well, if I'm lucky, maybe I'll be listening to my speakers again by the time "Ol' Massa" Lott gets kicked either downstairs or out in early January... |
Um, getting back to my speaker...
I removed the silent woofer, and it checks out fine for continuity, registering 4 ohms (I haven't tried applying a music signal to it). The woofer's leads going back to the crossover also sound the buzzer on the meter. At the time I disconnected the speaker from the system, the mid and tweeter were working, and the woofer was doing nothing, even when the volume was turned up. It sounded to me like the mid and maybe the tweeter were showing some distortion at lower volumes than I would expect, but I chalked this up in my mind to the woofer's not functioning properly, thinking its voice-coil was fried and that this might have been affecting the overall circuit - not actually the case. When I disconnected the woofer, the solder joints on its leads were solid. Now I've got to wonder about the crossover. Any ideas before I call Thiel?
As if that weren't discouraging enough, it turns out the spare tweeter I found for the other speaker fails the continuity check. Ha! Guess that's why I hadn't remembered it in the first place. :-(
LATE UPDATE: Reinstalled the woofer, hooked up the speaker, played music, and I got some woofing, although it didn't seem to me like full-on woofing. I turned up the volume to see if I still perceived excess distortion, and I did - for a few seconds, then no more woofing again. Heard it cut right out. Bizzare - what in the crossover (if that's what it is) could be behaving like this? Something tells me this speaker is going to be taking a Kentucky trip... |
Zaikesman--short answer: yes! Long answer: far more than any of us can ever fully understand. |
What do you guys hear about Hollings and the RIAA and their legislative agenda for software, hardware, and the internet? Couldn't Ashcroft and the feds ultimately use some of those provisions as further tools to monitor everybody's lives? |
Slipknot--I know. I work in the Hall of the States, right near the Capitol, and sometimes I wish I didn't have my ear so close to the ground in this town. The things I hear are truly, truly frightening. |
Zaikesman-
I am by profession a librarian and an IT person. I run the township network where I live as well as manage the library. The thought that the Feeble Bureau of Investigation can come into my site and confiscate servers, routers and paper records scares the bejesus out of me. The library is supposed to be a safe place, where one can come, ask any question, read any book and not be judged. During the teleconference I attended on Wed., a partner from the law firm of Ropes & Grey pointed out that many records produced by the Feds and available under the Freedom of Information act are no longer available; and the water reservoir data made available by the USGS is now being destroyed so as not to fall into the hands of "potential terrorists" US Govt Documents Depository Libraries are not recieving nearly as much any more as they once did. What's next? Soon we start recieving orders to destroy books on structural engineering, Flight manuals, Chemistry, Biology etc.? As an aside, Ashcroft has managed to roll the 1st ammendment violation known as CIPA into the patriot act as well. The district courts struck this law down as unconstitutional, but under the Patriot Act, it becomes fair game. |
Maxgain - Although I'm partial to my vintage amps (guitar-wise, that is), lately I have been seriously thinking about beginning to audition some of the plethora of 'boutique' amplifiers available today, just to see if there's anything out there that could give me tone I like, yet be more flexible, dependable, and quiet. Don't even know where to begin with all the choices seemingly out there now. Though there have been some players whose sound I've liked who've used Boogie amps, that's never been my type of sound for me. But I'm sure as a company and product they are a prime inspiration for many of the present wave of 'hand-built' custom-ish jobs (though I wouldn't be surprised if trends in high end audio over the years have also played a part).
Slipknot1 - Caught a couple of academic law symposia on C-Span recently about that very subject, and not only couldn't I agree more, the plot has already been well underway for over a year now, but you're right, the ripple implications for the wider population won't be fully realized until after our present blinding fervor has waned. BTW, I noted today with satisfaction that W. has officially given Strom, Jr. the evil eye, so that limb he's out on is bending ever so tellingly. Now Daschle can try to 'splain why he gave his predecessor/successor an officially-stamped and personally-delivered pass on Monday, only to begin trying to pedal furiously in the backwards direction ever since. With as sharp and bold a political instinct as this on display in the Dem's de facto national political voice and leader, I'm afraid their loyal opposition won't have too much to worry about next time the curtains are drawn two years from now (at least not on the Senate Dem's account, anyway). |
thedautch & Zaikesman -
I couldn't help but chime in here on the political comments re: Dems and Reps. yesterday I attended a teleconference broadcast from Washington on the "Patriot" act (yes the quotes are intentional) and the right to privacy and access to information. Until recently I subscribed to the belief that there wasn't a dimes worth of difference between the two. But, after hearing what Adolph Ashcroft and Chicken Little Bush have in store for Americans and for the Constitution: Be afraid. Be very afraid.... |
Zaikesman, you could plug those guitar amps into cryo'd outlets!
Ever plugged into a Mesa Boogie guitar amp? What a sound for electric guitar! Nothing I have ever used like it! But I know you would need too much convincing......forget I brought it up. Good luck with the tweeter, and don't get the damn thing too hot(use some heat sinks) or shoes will start falling from the sky! |
One spot of good news - I think I found a good entire spare tweeter that I didn't even remember I had socked away. I'll have to break out the solder gun and run it up the flagpole to see if it salutes. Oh, and I'm actually plugging in my electric guitars around the house now, instead of just plinking away unamplified. :-)
Hey, want to hear about something even funnier than audiogremlins? The night my system went down, my girlfriend whom I live with went to stay at her parents' house, so she could be there to help them when the ice-storm was supposed to hit the next morning. She naturally took my van instead of her Miata. When she was coming back the next day, she got a flat tire on the road. When I went outside to get her car to come help her, it had a flat tire just sitting there in the driveway. I don't even want to ask fate how many more shoes could be waiting to drop right about now. |
What was that Z ? I can't hear you over the ringing in my ears : ) Sean
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Sounds like Z has a pain in the ass to deal with and Jeff had a pain in the... Oh, never mind : )
I've only ever had a few "bad" things happen to me and luckily, nothing was damaged. This does not include the tweeters and mids that i've blown due to "over enthusiastic jamming", as i can't count those as mistakes since it was my fault.
The incident that sticks out in my mind the most was when one of my favorite preamps developed a problem. At random points, it would literally let out some type of low frequency "belch" that was VERY loud to say the least. The first time it did it, i had it hooked up in my HT system ( temporary fill in ). The preamp was connected to an amp that does about 1500 wpc at clipping and this was feeding four 12's and two 8's. Needless to say, the potential for "rumble" is pretty phenomenal with this system.
One morning at about 6 AM, I was laying in bed sound asleep and i heard a loud "CRACK" and them something shook the hell out of the house. It sounded like a car had literally crashed into the living room, which is right next to the master bedroom. Needless to say, it scared the hell out of me and i pretty much stood straight up in bed. My girlfriend, who was in the shower at the time, came flying out in a towel to see what happened. She said that it was so loud and startling that she jumped while in the shower and almost lost her footing. The "funny" thing is that we had no idea what had caused the noise, as neither of us was in that specific room. In plain English, it was hard to know exactly where the noise was coming from because it was SO loud and the entire house shook. After inspecting my various audio systems and scratching our heads, she went back to the shower and i went back to bed.
A couple of weeks later, she and i were sitting and watching a movie with the sound being fed through the defective preamp. I can't remember the movie, but i remember that it was a sci-fi / space oriented movie. Just as some type of eruption or explosion took place, the preamp let loose with another "belch". YOW !!! That was either the "best" special effect that we had ever experienced or my system was about to blow up : )
Once again, it scared the hell out of us. At least this time we knew it was something in the stereo. Through a process of elimination, i was able to figure out what was causing the problem and pulled the preamp from the system. Luckily, nothing was damaged while this was taking place. Back to the manufacturer it went and the problem was solved.
On another occasion, i hooked a CD player with no volume control directly to an amp. I did this by mistake via a "cd direct" switch on a preamp that i had at the time. The CD direct bypassed EVERYTHING in the preamp, including the volume control. Bare in mind i did this at 1 in the morning with my girlfriend sleeping in the next room. I popped in a disc and as soon as it started, i had full power pumping from an amp rated for 200+ wpc into a pair of speakers that were rated at 96 dB's efficiency. It was REAL loud for about two seconds. That is, until i could hit the power switch. My girlfriend never said anything to me about it as she had to know it was a mistake, but i bet it "startled her" to say the least. I know it did that to me : ) I was expecting to see her come barreling out of the bedroom with a hatchet in hand, if ya know what i mean.....
Once again though, no damage to anything, which surprised me. I was expecting to find tweeter diaphragms plastered to the wall. I guess i'm just lucky. That, or stupid : ) Sean
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Baal the Audio god requires more sacrifice from your wallet. What profiteth a man if he loses his sound but keeps his wallet. Oh ye of little faith! |
Look at the bright side, no one got hurt, right? I acquired a German Sheppard last year, he was chasing my other dog all over the house, terrorizing the mutt. I lay on the floor laughing and enjoying the show, until he knocked one of my speakers over. Guess where it landed? Yep, my balls ached for days. |
I have never belonged to any politcal party. |
Fortunately, I have never had one of "those" evenings. Although if you were just a casual listener, rather than an enthusiastic one, the system might just sound fine for a few more years.... Which predicament is worse?
David. |
Thedautch - where do you think all the money for those tax cuts go? |
Hey, I'm always surprised by how many of us seem to be basically Libertarians or anarchists, to read some of the comments, but I get more disgusted with the Dems than I do the GOP's, because my expectations were once higher for them. Until the system isn't ruled by money and based on the (sadly correct) assumption of the populace's ignorance, manipulability, and disinterest, none of that will really matter very much. Never happen though...
Maybe that's part of why we all share a love of listening to music. :-) |
I'm very liberal myself, but I guess I'm sort of surprised with how many other 'Goners are Democrats. Maybe just those of us who can afford *true* audiophile systems are Republicans. |
Y'know, when I posted this I didn't expect so many similar tales in response. Guess I must have been high on something.
Stenho: Now let's hear your (completely objective, natch) review of Limbaugh & co.! :-) Actually, I'm mostly referring to the music programming, as there are no tolerable commercial stations around here, but will gladly admit to ATC and the rest...
Sean T.: I'm afraid I could blow up my house and we'd still only have a 35% voting rate in this country, so we get the Supreme Court we deserve (and W. and daddy get the court they paid for)... |
Hey, but you still have your health!!
Unless you've electrocuted yourself by the time I post this...
Matty |
