@acepilot71 I’m a guy who knows a lot of stuff about a lot of things - but I rarely post. I’m also a pilot, but not an Ace, as I’ve never shot anyone down.
Ethernet Cables, do they make a difference?
I stream music via TIDAL and the only cable in my system that is not an "Audiophile" cable is the one going from my Gateway to my PC, it is a CAT6 cable. Question is, do "Audiophile" Ethernet cables make any difference/ improvement in sound quality?
Any and all feedback is most appreciated, especially if you noted improvements in your streaming audio SQ with a High-End Ethernet cable.
Thanks!
grm
Any and all feedback is most appreciated, especially if you noted improvements in your streaming audio SQ with a High-End Ethernet cable.
Thanks!
grm
441 responses Add your response
I confess. I do not have an engendering degree. Sob! 😥 FYI I just got through with my lecture on why no proof is required on another thread, and why all have to work with usually is evidence and why proof, even when there is proof, is subjective. Too bad you missed the lecture. Maybe I’ll give it again. Stay tuned. |
acepilot71m @geoffkait do I know you? I did not give you right to talk to me so do not!Sorry, this is public forum. No one here needs permission from you to post, or to respond to your posts. |
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I shall say it again (my previous post was deleted by admin or may be @geoffkait is an admin himself) @geoffkait stay on subject, post your opinion, even better - support it by facts.Do NOT go personal if you have no other (scientifically proven) arguments. Getting personal on other member shows your weakness. Have a good day. |
dimora I agree. We’ve stated the actual facts based on how ethernet cables actually work. The rest of the voodoo anyone else may wish to promote will have to be caveat emptor on the buyer’s part. >>>>>Yeah, you guys gave it your best shot. You can walk with your head held high. Remember, only quote facts. Better luck next time. |
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Perhaps this link may help https://planetechusa.com/blog/ethernet-different-ethernet-categories-cat3-vs-cat5e-vs-cat6-vs-cat6a-vs-cat7-vs-cat8/. The "new" standard being developed is AoE. By new I mean the protocols for music explicitly haven't been ratified. There are about 8 protocols, some open and the others proprietary. The difference in cthe CAT numbers involve the bandwidth, but all this is covered in the link subject matter. A |
In terms of cable quality, there is a difference in the core metal type, how it is formed or spun (I can't think of the word I mean), then there is the cover, insulation and so on. This will determine the efficiency and reliability of the signal over the cable. Please excuse me if I am saying the obvious. Just trying to help those who are not sure of these things. A |
I went to the doctor and told him I didn't feel good. He ran tests and said I was imagining it because he couldn't see anything in my test results that would explain how I felt. When I left the doctor, I still felt bad and he felt scientific. One of us was experiencing something while the other was busy explaining that the experience wasn't genuine. This illustrates the never-ending "I hear it--no you don't" back and forth on this site. Trotting out what degree we have in a specific discipline, or our technical credentials doesn't invalidate what a person says they sense or experience. I understand the back and forth isn't going to end--but it can be done in a way that doesn't infer, imply, suggest or expressly say that whoever doesn't agree with the stated position, whichever one it is, must be intellectually inferior, dishonest or lack the acuity to share the experience. Peace Al |
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@kosst_amojan Hmm...I don't know if you meant to do so, but you kind of made my point. You didn't advance your position by suggesting that anyone who says they hear ethernet cable differences is crazy. I counted at least 17 people on this thread, to this point, who affirm they have tried a different ethernet cable and heard a difference. Others, fewer in number but not statistically significantly less, said they either didn't hear a difference or it is impossible to hear a difference. I actually think everyone described accurately what they heard. But, I leave open the possibility that you may be right; all these folks may be victims of confirmation bias. But, I also leave open the possibility that you may be wrong. And very smart people have been known to be wrong about strongly held scientifically held views. Ethernet cable sound quality attributes is not the equivalent of gravity. One is unimpeachable--that would be gravity. For the record, not one of the posters claimed to hear the electricity in their wall outlets. :-) Peace Al |
Absolutely no. I'm a former software engineer with experience in networking for many years. The data that's being delivered in a CAT/5-6 cable is DIGITAL!! It's a stream of binary data NOT analog data. Ethernet uses CSMA/CD (Carrier sense multiple access with collision detection). If the digitized signal being transmitted isn't 100 perfect it will retransmit the packet. The ONLY difference between CAT/5-8 is the speed at which it's certified for. 10, 100 or 1000 Mbits/s. For a 20-20kHz digitized signal CAT5 is more then adequate. Again, in the digital domain there is NO difference between a cheap Ethernet cable and a more expensive one. None! If you believe there is your just throwing good money away. |
@amg56 thanks for the link, I have learned something new about higher catX cables. Different cables are designed for different speeds and in the network architecture cable should never be the weakest link. Designing a network you should look onto the performance of the end components and use cables appropriately. What may really make difference is shielding but not for the quality of the audio but for the presence/absence of noises, induced in the analog components. @kosst_amojan actually I used audio over Ethernet cable in my house. There is a protocol called A-bus, it uses special hubs and some receivers have A-bus outputs. Unfortunately it is not compatible with LAN as we know it and it is not a high quality audio. |
It seems to me that what has been largely overlooked in this discussion (with the exception of the brief post by Markalarsen) is the fact that 100% of the energy of an electrical signal, especially one that as in the case of Ethernet contains spectral components at very high RF frequencies, does not necessarily go only where it is supposed to go. Experienced designers of high speed digital circuits (of which I happen to be one) will recognize that. And given that a number of members here who are highly respected and highly experienced audiophiles have reported finding that the choice of an Ethernet cable can have significant sonic consequences, I offered the following hypothesis in the "Most Important Unloved Cable" thread that David_Ten linked to in his post early in this thread: Almarg 3-27-2017Regarding the OP’s specific question, though, I would expect that an Ethernet cable that is upstream of his PC would have less chance of making a difference than one that is directly connected to an audio component, where it would presumably be more likely to couple RF noise into sensitive circuit points within the audio system. Personally I don’t have an Ethernet connection in my audio system, but that’s my take on it. Regards, -- Al |
@almarg thanks for the great quote of respected expert. noise and/or RFI is a separate beast shielding, twisting and other means help but moving and turning cable may produce even better affect, removing cable from the system (at least when playing music) solves the ambiguity in the root. I suggested above to compare playing the same source over the network and directly (by copying file to the media player storage) |
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@astewart8944 I would prefer an opposite example: someone puts a fancy component into the system and feels good about it, starts hearing better sound or both, good for him/her. Even if doctor says - it should not help... Hopefully he/she did not spend a lot of money on that and no one who made a component feels like he outsmarted another customer and got easy money. |
kosst_amojan Usually when somebody presents claims of symptoms that have no basis in reality they’re treated with psychiatric medications. Is that what we should do with people who hear Ethernet and HDMI cables?Doctors don’t just throw up their arms in frustration when faced with a difficult diagnosis and then simply write a script for psychiatric medication. Instead, they call in other physicians and scientists, often from other specialties, and they work as a team to find the answer. That’s very different from you simply pronouncing others here as crazy. In some totalitarian systems, people who don’t conform to the government mandated norms are often labelled as crazy, and then pumped up with drugs or sent to a gulag. It sounds like you might like that kind of country - as long as you could remain in charge. Thankfully that isn’t the case here. |
@kosst_amojan Because you have asked who says gravity is unimpeachable, I provide this link to Bill Nye, the science guy, and Michio Kaku, astrophysics guy, explaining that gravity is one of nature's four fundamental forces. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9FVFh3HYaY IMO when you are fighting gravity to make your point, you are probably losing ground. But, I admire your feistiness. Peace Al |
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@kosst_amojan gravity has pretty big impact is audio world, and in the way we all understand it well - it forces everything (including cables) to go down and end up on the floor close to each other. Believe me - I know, I have jumped out of airplanes and there was no cases of not landing... And there, on the floor, when cables are close to each other and parallel to each other, EM kicks in. That is where I can agree that high quality shielding and proper twisting of the pairs can make a difference. But difference in noises reduction. Hope everyone can agree with my gravity understanding :-) |
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kosst_amojan Bill Nye ... is hardly any authority on science by training or trade seeing as he's a mechanical engineer.Mechanical engineering is very much a science, kosst. That makes him more of a scientist than you. |
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I have to concur with the naysayers but also want to add another angle to consider. No device takes the bits off the network and immediately converts the information into sound. There are buffers in the receiver that are likely several MB in size. This is why something keeps playing for a few seconds even if you cut the network connection. So ... the bits come over the wire and get stored in the buffer and your equipment, DAC or whatever, drains that buffer and turns it into sound. So I don't see how the quality of network cable affects the sound since all its doing is filling a buffer. |
As a follow-up to the hypothesis I stated in my previous post, here is a quote from another post I had made in the "Most Important Unloved Cable" thread: Almarg 3-19-2017 It should be noted, though, that Bryon's experience involved an Ethernet cable that was connected directly to one of his audio components, not to a computer that was in turn connected to the audio system. Regards, -- Al |
kosst_amojan I didn’t even bother to shield the 600VA transformer in my amp. And why? >>>>I’m guessing monkey see monkey do. Because Nelson Pass doesn’t bother to. >>>>Ah, just as I thought. And it makes virtually no difference. >>>>and you know this how? Twisting is generally the safeguard against crosstalk between signal pairs. >>>>But in the case of transformers the magnetic field is an issue for everything in proximity to the transformer. That’s why shielding is used around transformers. If there’re smart, anyway. You know, the low frequency high permeability stuff. |
@kosst_amojan Hmm...you seem to relish throwing folks you disagree with under the bus (Bill Nye the Lyin Guy and Kaku--), which leaves me wondering why you uniformly take a caustic approach. The gravity clip above says nothing outlandish. It says "gravity" exists. Wow! Anyway, I picked gravity because we all know it exists not because it made a particular point about audio equipment. Your response was to take on gravity as if it is clearly questionable and routinely in doubt. Once you went there, I stopped seriously listening to you. You want others to adopt your view on a particular subject as the irrevocable standard and then you roll over gravity as if it is a novel hypothesis. IMO not a convincing way to demonstrate reasonableness. This is my last post with you because I don't think you are listening either. We disagree--something that is possible to do in a civil manner. Peace Al |
This has got to be one of the best deals out there for CAT7 double shielded cables: https://www.sfcable.com/cat7-shielded-patch-cables.html At these prices it's definitely worth a try. |
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John Archibald Wheeler and Kip Thorne wrote the definitive book on the subject of gravity many years ago, Gravitation, 1973, 1336 pages. Everybody and his brother now knows that gravity is actually the warping or distorting of spacetime as a consequence of mass. That’s the reason the LIGO Project detected gravity waves a couple years ago. It detected gravity waves created by a merger of two monster size black holes. The LIGO sensors detect ripples in spacetime. The head of the LIGO Project for most of its life was Kip Thorne, former student of Wheeler and co-author of Gravitation. Addendum for the advanced student: Considering the notion that positrons were electrons that were traveling backwards in time, Wheeler came up in 1940 with his one-electron universe postulate: that there was in fact only one electron, bouncing back and forth in time. His graduate student while was a professor at Princeton, Richard Feynman, found this hard to believe, but the idea that positrons were electrons traveling backwards in time intrigued him and Feynman incorporated the notion of the reversibility of time into his Feynman diagrams.[24] With Neils Bohr Wheeler helped explain nuclear fission. |
@jinjuku what do you mean by 60% reliability? @acepilot71: William chose the testing format. I randomly generated a sequence of cable swap out. William went with either listening to an entire track or part of a track. He only obtained 60% accuracy of stating what cable was in use. Which means he was also in error 40% of the the time. |
Just as a matter of fact, ethernet doesn't always use TCP/IP because there isn't really a "TCP/IP" protocol. Those are two different protocols for two different layers of the software interface. In all likelihood, it's using TCP/FTP. You have a gross misunderstanding. There is indeed a TCP/IP protocol. It's transmission control protocol over internet protocol. UDP/IP is also a protocol. Ethernet isn't any one protocol. It's made up of many moving parts and the abstraction it provides up/down stream layers is why it's so robust, reliable, and elegant. There is no such thing as TCP/FTP because FTP doesn't live at layer 3. It's layer 7 (application). |
It seems to me that what has been largely overlooked in this discussion (with the exception of the brief post by Markalarsen) is the fact that 100% of the energy of an electrical signal, especially one that as in the case of Ethernet contains spectral components at very high RF frequencies, does not necessarily go only where it is supposed to go. Experienced designers of high speed digital circuits (of which I happen to be one) will recognize that. And I encourage and invite every last one of you to, in your own setup, to evaluate some spec meeting, but very inexpensive, CAT5e/6 to your own esoteric CAT5e/6 cabling. I’ll provide a client, server, layer 3 managed switch with a LAG setup for dynamic LACP. Of course you will not be allowed to know which cable is being used. |
I love it when somebody wants to convince the world that they are right by stating they talk to an engineer and he said blah blah blah! I don’t give a rats @$$ What an engineer says, if you have to rely on somebody else’s opinion then you don’t know what you are talking about. Also, There are differences in network cables running into your house. I’m guessing you have copper of some sort, which is noisy. I have fibre and fibre is always going to be less noisy than copper. Ask your guru buddy about that. Everybody on this thread talks about the speed differences between cat5 to cat8 cables, in reality, it’s more than just speed differences, much more between the different cables. Cat5 speed rating is far more than what you need to transfer digital music. Cat5 has much better throughput than the throughput from a CD player. If you check out the cable sheathing and shielding, it is much better on the cat7 and above cables. |
Transmission speed is going to be dependent on the conducting material, and correct me if I a wrong, Cat levels are bandwidth capabilities enabled by the reliability of the signal, therefore the shielding around each core. The transmitter/receivers at each end are going to have a significant effect on this. Optic fibre is good for data and low level audio. I believe @geoffkait stated that jitter was a debilitating effect on music over OF. I would imagine that this to will be overcome in the future. |
Pop Quiz A Google search for “signal speed copper vs fiber optic cable” turns up this explanation at the top of the page. Find the mistakes. “Fiber optic transmission is faster: Fiber optic versus copper wire transmission can be boiled down to the speed of photons versus the speed of electrons. ... And while fiber optic cables don’t travel at the speed of light, they come very close — only about 31 percent slower.” Extra credit. Does an electromagnetic wave travel faster through water or glass? |
