On the LAN datatransfer is usually limited by the network cards of two connected devices. Most oF NAS do not support 1G.
If any of the devices in your LAN route from the storage of your audio file to your playing device is 100M - your entire connection is limited to 100M. Any cat5 cable will serve you as good as the most expensive cat6,7,8,9,10 whatever number you can come up with and willing to pay for.
Do yourself a favor and run a couple of tests:
1. Time one audio file copy over the cheapest network cable you have and compare it to the time of copy over the most expensive one. I bet they will be the SAME, and much less than duration of the audio track - conclusion: network is not a bottleneck.
2. Copy the same file file over to the playing device (computer or whatever) and compare playing it to playing from NAS. I bet you won’t be able to tell the difference.
Alternative approach - do the blind test and try to guess if cable is cat5 or cat<$$$>.
For strong believers: I’m selling cat13 network cables $111 per foot, custom made, special order... <Sarcasm> |
Did anyone do a blind test?
Please post your honest results.
It would be nice to see “placebo effect” eliminated.
Do not get me wrong, I love high quality network cables and connectors, but I make mine myself, use high quality cable and connectors and cut them to the length. Why? Because I can and it doesn’t cost me much. Otherwise I’d use cheap cat5, because there is no any network need in the house requiring network speed that cat5 cannot handle. |
@grm can you also compare to cheap cat5 cable and if you can do a blind test even better.
as for the claims of 10 GB/s - you will not be able to experience this speed.
any computer network card supports 1Gbps (which is 80 times less than the claim above). Capital letter is for bytes per second and low case for bits per second (8 times difference)
DSL modems speed is 15 Mbps
EDSL May go up to 100 Mbps
If you have fiber optic all the way to your house (like I do) you may get up to 1Gbps.
Still regular cat6 handles it no problem.
Cable throupoot is not an issue at all.
10 GB/s rarely seen even in data centers, may be on data fabrics but it is distributed between multiple connections.
Claim may be legit but do you need it? Can other components handle the speed? And better question - why do you need the speed, how much data do you need to move? Do the math... |
@1graber2 what you are talking about makes sense for analog signal.
From DAC out all the way to the speakers - yes your cables MUST be as good as you can get (or as good as you want to spend money for)
However your digital signal, especially from file source (NAS or streaming server) is a different story. Media player cashes the digital information as it comes from the source over the network cable and has enough bytes to play "smoothly". Network protocol takes care of packages transfer, ordering, re-sending lost packages (if any) and so on. Digital data is sent in discrete packages - that is defined by TCP/IP protocol. No cable can change that, Media player converts bursts of data into contentious stream of digital data over the optical cable (for example) to DAC. |
I have kindly asked above to post the results of a blind tests...
No one posted them yet.
I also suggested to use cheap cat5 cable and compare it to playing file right from the storage of the device with media player (if for example you are playing from the computer) - blind test again.
With digital data transfer - your system is as weak as your weakest link and weaknesses do not usually add up.
p.s. reasonably priced good looking cable is worth the money just for it's look and high quality of the connectors.
p.p.s. Each of us can define "reasonably priced" for themselves ;-) |
@joeeuro do you mind to post your streaming part of the configuration, i.e. what kind of internet, modem, what media player etc.
Path from the internet to the DAC
How much did you pay for the cable?
sorry for being nosy...
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@jinjuku what do you mean by 60% reliability?
what kind of tests did you run? |
No need to switch to the argument on personalities, just simply get someone to help, do the blind test and... please, please, please, post here honest result.
preferably with details of equipment involved in network connection from the internet to the media player.
Until than - it is a placebo effect which has no scientific background. |
@dimora who are you with your 22 posts (and probably extensive computer or networking education), and who am I with my 10 posts?
another story @geoffkait - probably got his degree on this forum - over 9000 posts... |
@dimora I’ve recognized the headset on your pic. Acepilot is a nickname which was geaven to me in university and I got stuck with it.
I just need #sarcasm sometimes.
I posted pretty much the same arguments as you did - I guess if someone wants to spend money on cat7, 8, 9 - whatever, let them do it.
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I shall say it again (my previous post was deleted by admin or may be @geoffkait is an admin himself)
@geoffkait
stay on subject, post your opinion, even better - support it by facts.Do NOT go personal if you have no other (scientifically proven) arguments.
Getting personal on other member shows your weakness.
Have a good day.
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@amg56 thanks for the link, I have learned something new about higher catX cables.
Different cables are designed for different speeds and in the network architecture cable should never be the weakest link.
Designing a network you should look onto the performance of the end components and use cables appropriately.
What may really make difference is shielding but not for the quality of the audio but for the presence/absence of noises, induced in the analog components.
@kosst_amojan actually I used audio over Ethernet cable in my house. There is a protocol called A-bus, it uses special hubs and some receivers have A-bus outputs.
Unfortunately it is not compatible with LAN as we know it and it is not a high quality audio. |
@markcooperstein there is one difference - cable look really, really cool.
This thread convinced me to make one really good looking cable, I shall order the best looking TechFlex, cover my Cat6a and - I’ll feel so good.
And I promise I’ll report back here if my sound is better.
Stand by...
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@almarg thanks for the great quote of respected expert.
noise and/or RFI is a separate beast shielding, twisting and other means help but moving and turning cable may produce even better affect, removing cable from the system (at least when playing music) solves the ambiguity in the root.
I suggested above to compare playing the same source over the network and directly (by copying file to the media player storage) |
@astewart8944 I would prefer an opposite example: someone puts a fancy component into the system and feels good about it, starts hearing better sound or both, good for him/her. Even if doctor says - it should not help...
Hopefully he/she did not spend a lot of money on that and no one who made a component feels like he outsmarted another customer and got easy money. |
@kosst_amojan gravity has pretty big impact is audio world, and in the way we all understand it well - it forces everything (including cables) to go down and end up on the floor close to each other. Believe me - I know, I have jumped out of airplanes and there was no cases of not landing...
And there, on the floor, when cables are close to each other and parallel to each other, EM kicks in.
That is where I can agree that high quality shielding and proper twisting of the pairs can make a difference. But difference in noises reduction.
Hope everyone can agree with my gravity understanding :-) |
@grm As per the link posted by @amg56 cat7 has very high specification required for data centres of very very high performing servers.
I'm puzzled... why Samsung asks for cat7, shielding? |
@burgh heavy shielding in industrial environment has many reasons (as you well aware of), standards, codes, safety... you name it.
Besides
Profinet, CanBus or any serial bus protocols are considered real time and delivery of each individual message in time is critical so they are mostly shielded from outside world.
In Audio world at home we are free to do whatever we like, especially in lo voltage circuits - so experimental lab is open for suggestions. |
Ethernet cable is digital.
As such it cannot change the quality of the music.
There are very few bytes to deliver over the cable. Network protocols like TCP/IP or whichever one you use take care of the data continuity so the song file on the remote storage is identical to the file delivered to the media player and DAC. The sequence of the bytes is the same - guaranteed. It will be delivered ahead of the time when it will be played by media player and processed by the DAC since the speed and throughput of the cheapest cable exceeds the needs of the delivery channel. Media player will take care of the buffering of the data when data packets coming out of the
Ethernet cable into the network card and put back together into the continuous stream of bytes.
Quality of the music depends on the components in the chain starting from DAC all the way to the speakers and the room, furniture in it and so on - the analog components so to say.
However Ethernet cable may impact the quality of the sound, introduce noises of all kinds.
That highly depends on the design of each individual system.
"highly flawed system" may be one which is not shielded properly and not shielded Ethernet cable will create all kind of parasite noises.
What may look and sound like "
highly resolving system" may be easily brought out of balance by poorly manufactured
Ethernet cable. Most likely it will not but there is a chance. Reports of improvements with high quality cables just prove that.
The case when placebo affect takes place has all rights for existence: What looks good and has a significant price tag must sound good.
This debate will never end due to the high permutation of the components and configurations in your systems. Too many variables in this equation.
But go out there, try, experiment and improve, If you like the sound - keep the cable, if not - take it back and as for a refund :-) |
@rja good idea. When you borrow - you did not pay yet.
If you do not want to spend extra money without reason you will try to listen more carefully... |
Do not mix in "Difference between cables" in analog world and "Difference between
Ethernet
cables" in digital data transmission.
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@almarg I believe using music of
Johann Sebastian Bach may not be exactly the same. Liking or disliking music is subjective as well as rating one composer at the very top or "
third rate hack as a composer
" has a lot of "like" or "dislike" in it.
However if you take a loseless record of that same composer and transfer it over the Ethernet cable - it will not change regardless of the quality of the cable.
It is guaranteed by the network protocol - it will be identical 100%
It is measurable - files are identical if transmission completed successfully.
...and the same person who disliked it will dislike it again ;-) |
@cleeds one chooses to believe or not for him/herself.
If you here/feel the difference or better say improvement - keep that cable in your system.
I offered blind test for thous who are in doubt.
Prove to yourself it is better - good, keep the cable.
When I have an opportunity to run the test - I'll happily post my results but they will be MY results in MY system and may not apply to your system. (Too many variables in this equation) |
@rhg88 you won’t believe how much fun it is to read this thread on the long boring meeting. Way more fun than doing high throughput network architecture itself. I wish I had a budget for the data centre cables like these guys, buying butique Ethernet cables.
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May I ask guys with The Ear to describe or qualify the difference you notice depending on the Ethernat cable?
I suggest two categories:
- Quality of a music
- Quality of a sound
First one relates to the purity of the instruments, voices, etc.
Second - presence/absence of parasite noises, distortions etc.
IMHO you should notice only second one. |
1. Spend reasonable money.
2. Upgrade component.
3. Feel positive difference, and feel good about it.
4. Repeat...
Isnt that the goal?
In theory Ethernet cable does not make any difference for audio system but...
p.s. Teory is applicable in highly controlled environment which cannot be applied to every setup (or may be even majority of the setups).
p.p.s. Theories or rules have exceptions, which just prove the rules.
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Hair-loss prevention elixir is better analogy.
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@markalarsen is your Ethernet cable directly connected to your DAC? If so - can you please provide your understanding how digital data becomes analog inside your DAC? What is the source of your data on the other side of the Ethernet cable? |
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@markalarsen - no baiting, trying to understand your configuration and what you imply by "Ethernet connected to DAC" From the "Bel Canto" web site: The Black EX Integrated amplifier is an all-in-one component designed in a custom plated high-grade aluminum chassis that combines high-level DAC performance and our custom amplification. The EX Integrated has the versatility to connect to any source with simplicity and ease, including MQA, Roon, DSD, and includes an internal programmable phono stage.
Key work is "All-in-one" Device above combines many components in one (from the Ethernet cable to the analog output - simplified): - RG45 connector
- Network card
- Memory buffer
- Media player
- Digital to Analog Converter itself
- Analog sound circuit
- Analog output plugs
Do not get me wrong - I'm not questioning quality of it but... With so many components combined in one unit there are a lot of possibilities to get noises produced by digital components in the analog ones. Bad or even wrongly designed shielding of the Ethernet cable can produce audible effects so much spoken above. High Audio quality Ethernet cable may show poor performance in the data centre where throughput is important.
High Network quality Ethernet cable may show poor performance in the audio system where no-noise is important. Both sides in this discussion are right! Period! I shall say it again - each setup is different! Mine performs the same on Cat5 and Cat<a lot> because... (drums) Ethernet cable delivers data to computer, computer runs media player, media player buffers input and sands steady data stream to DAC over the optic cable or USB cable. Optic cable facilitates that electrical disconnect in digital chain below DAC. |
I meant that DAC is well separated from played - that is the key.
Actually cable from
BDP-1 to DAC may create some difference.
Try toslink from BDP-1 to DAC |
@zoom25 my bad, for some reason I thought it does. Bottom line last link to the D to A conversion stage is important especially if DAC has small buffering and very specific to the individual setup
@markalarsen I have USB toslink coax Bnc. I prefer toslink (just mentally) because it has no electrical connection with computer which is full of... noises. No noticeable difference with USB and I did not try coax or Bnc (because I’m lazy)
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@markalarsen I just compared your setup with mine. In your case Ethernet cable goes into all-in-one device which called DAC but it does it all including implementation of network protocols, packets assembly, buffering, playing D to A and so on... if parasitic noises cryp inside through the Ethernet cable - god knows where they can get into. In my case it all stays in the computer and pure (or purere) data stream goes over the optic cable to D to A. If media player on the computer doesn’t screw up the stream - it is all clear.
If computer screws up - you have nothing.
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@zoom25 also important to descrime the differences observed, i.e. noise, distortion, clarity, etc. |
