Maybe it is possible to establish a widely accepted common ground in terms of listening bias by choosing and agreeing on 10-30 LPs all readily available new to all audiophiles for decent price. If all listening tests and personal comments regarding the sound of components and systems in the various threads and posts would refer to any of these LPs mainly, everyones comments and experiences would much easier be understood by their fellow Audiogoners.
Hi Axel, sibilance distortion is a very common phenomenon in a lot of set-ups AND on a lot of records. What we need, are records which can be tracked WITHOUT sibilance distortion, but only if aligned perfectly. Usually - if not recording-inherent - sibilance distortion are the result of miss-alignment of either (or most likely both...) cartridge or tonearm. And yes - don't have to be Tequila Sunrise... - we do need in specific one or two records which can provide just this particular "test bench". I am still working on the list of classical picks, but will provide them soon - too much "real world" work right now...
Thanks D. You may want to figure if Tequila Sunrise will be a test case (or not), -- as well as the much talked about last track from side 2 of "so long so wrong" AK, even the 2nd (middle track) seems a challenge.
B U T if we can determine that those two example are due to the vinyl it self, we also have learned something. A.
Oh yes, the one's been kicked about in the "Killing sibilance..." thread, http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1245595534 and is well distributed. Doug's using it as some sort of test LP. The Eagles' "Hell freezes over" ('Tequila Sunrise', 1st Track on side 2) was brought on by Raul he's using it as a test LP (but the 2nd track on side 2, 'Hotel California'), it's their 2nd last album and also available. A.
Is this list limited to common album pressings, or are Reference Recordings or Acoustic Sound and other "premiere" labels also to be included? Same question for 45RPM vs 33RPM?
I ask because some of my premiere/specialty recording disks are just absolutely stellar and completely blow away my more common records. Two particularly come to mind:
88 Basie Street Ray Brown Trio - Soular Energy
As for the more common albums I would recommend:
many by Cat Stevens Michael Hedges - Aerial Boundaries Friday Night in San Francisco (McLaughlin, DeMeola, DeLucia)
Dear friends: I just have a very good experience that confirm the necessity to have this " common ground " by ourself.
Making a small change in our tonearm design I test the " old " prototype against the " new " with that small change on it. As always I made it with my " common ground " recordings/tracks, the change was so " tiny " that after the Janis Ian recordings everything the same ( at least I can't detect differences in the performance. ) but when I run the Eagles one at the very first stroke on the percussion the " difference " comes alive, I run the Patricia Barber where there were almost no diffrence.
I'm talking here of very tiny changes that fortunately for me I can dettect through that " common ground " recordings. It is not only to have a high resolution audio system with a near perfect set up but to have the software and to know what looking for.
No certainly not easy - 10 audiophiles = 11 opinions. Guess we have to abandon the idea of establishing any common ground regarding a set/list of "evaluation records" for high-end audio purpose. But then that idea is failing in almost all areas of social/public life today. How could I dare hoping for any better here....(:^) .... Alas - it was a try. Cheers, D.
Thanks Viridian. I found your fourth post and get your point. You don't think it is a good idea to create a list of recordings that we could use as a common basis for discussion. However, to Dertonarm you wrote: "And a really bad try at that." I thought he gave it a good try even if the idea is flawed for the reasons you stated. The thread did generate some good recommendations.
I do like the idea of sharing recommendations of good recordings with other members of the forum.
The importance on Dertonarm idea ( not to often I coincide with D. ) is that we can comunicate on audiophile terms using the same " language " because it is the best path that you, Viridian , me or any one else could know what each one of us are " hearing " and what we really want to comunicate and that this " comunication " be fully in understand for everyone. With out that common listening bias we are surrounded by uncertainty on what each one of us is talking about.
Anyway, Dertonarm attemp was a good one that has not success because IMHO the people don't understand very well his meaning and the importance for all of us of that meaning.
It is - apparently - very difficult to establish any kind of "reference standard" (this is not meant to be taken in as "quality" here!) in a subject which is so highly individual and burden with taste, preference and emotion. Some may even fear such a benchmark being established for whatever reason. I thought it would be a good one, following the paths Harry Pearson laid out with his list of preferred test records in "the absolu!e sound" almost 3 decades ago. To have some kind of common ground to return to and to compare things could bring a much better understanding of each other's sonic picture and set-up while communicating about the very sonics in virtual cyberspace. What I missed however was a constructive counter-proposal. Especially from the most opposing "critics". But then constructiveness seems a rare bird anyway these days in "audiophile communication". Often it is not the message which provokes opposition, but the mere personality of the messenger...;-) ..... I for one still think we missed just another chance to fortify and clarify a part of our communication regarding our passion.
Viridian, while I do not share your opinion nor would say that you understood my proposal correctly (neither in intend nor content), I agree - with the experience of the past year here on Audiogon... - that there is hardly any intention to agree no matter how obvious a given thing/concept/consequence may be. In reverse it rather seems that the all present chance and option to deny out of personal preferences and intentions is an omnipresent force in audiophile online discussions. A force few can resist to use. Somehow haunted by the ghost of Mephistofeles who claimed and named himself the "spirit of negation".
Dertonarm, I, for one, appreciate your efforts in this thread and was hoping that it would lead to some kind of list that we could use to discuss sonics and systems. However, the thread died about a year and a half ago. Why not tally the results, make a list and use it as originally intended? Call it Dertonarm's List or something.
Those members who are not interested, need not be involved. The Audiogon Analog forum could be the host location for discussion. Perhaps a list of 25 or so currently available LPs is sufficient, or ten LPs in each of three or four genres.
Dear Peterayer, your suggestion is worth musing about. I will have some spare time over the christmas holidays and will prepare a list of my favorite records used for exploring the sonic abilities of components. Cheers, D.
Depth of Bass: Zoon - Fields of the Nephilim (LP, Begger's Banquet BEGA172) (1st track, side 3, bass goes sub-sonic alternate: Saint-Saens Organ Symphony, w/Louis Fremeaux cond., EMI
Dynamic Range/trackability: Paranoid, Black Sabbath on white label German Vertigo. alternate: Verdi Requiem, RCA Soria box. track: Dies Irae
Either LP puts most stereos on their knees in a few seconds.
Most LPs by the Atrium Musicae de Madrid on Harmonia Mundi are good for staging and detail.
Ability of a system to resolve detail within high energy vocals: Village Music of Bulgaria, Nonsuch. Field recording of exceptional merit. If your system has problems this recording will sound like hell.
I for one am new to vinyl and don't really have much to compare to. I really enjoy this thread and it has turned me on to some new music that I otherwise would not have thought about. I can't wait for the list so we can start comparing thoughts and notes. Get it going, I can't wait to start ordering!!!!!
Suppose 20 audiophiles have 50 identical records. Now what?
I love the passion and idealism behind the initial question posed at the start of this thread but ultimately, it is a futile exercise.
I'll offer myself as a free personal slave for the rest of my life! if someone can find just two absolutely identical systems out there , of which we will need so we can lay even the most basic foundation to make discussion meaningful. I'll offer the same even if two systems are only 80 percent identical!
Instead what i would suggest is for a small group with 20-50 identical records travel to each others systems to hear those same records in different systems then have some dialog. This can be a sonic reference point to bring back to our own systems to gauge the sound of our own systems. But all you would know is if you prefer the sound of those records more so in your own system then in theirs.
Words are feeble tools to convey degrees of fine musical nuances and subtexts, then add to that unfamiliar systems and you multiply the challenge. Even in my own system i am still progressively trying to know what one component sounds like apart from the others ! , nevermind what is going in on in someone elses system.
The goal of the initial thread posting was to provide a controlled environment to make discussion meaningful and to aid in our progress which is fine but there are many more contingencies to take into account and ultimately having a identical record set is insufficient to achieve the desired goal. No?
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
