With only 48 hours of burn-in on these pieces, this review is hardly definitive- but here goes...
I think old Ed (Meitner) has hit the cover off the ball with this, his latest offering in CD/SACD playback equipment. The following comments are based on comparisons to my previous front-end: Meitnerized Philips SACD 1000, Meitner DAC6, Meitner Switchman II and apply to both SACD & CD playback.
The CDSD & DCC2 - compared to the previous Meitner rig---
-Much deeper soundstage, much more layered, as well, width about the same. -Hall ambiance retrieval is vastly superior. -Tonal and timbral qualities are unsurpassed in any digital gear I've experienced. Piano reproduction is absolutely stunningly good!! Acoustic guitar has the string interaction/wooden resonance of the real thing. -There is a "Bloom" to instuments, even voice, that seems typically absent in digital playback. This quality is very "Analog" like. -So far, I sense not even a suggestion of stridency or digital fatigue- It is just not there. This new gear is just plain musical. That word is overused- but there is no other word to better describe the overall experience. There is a natural seamlessness and natural bloom to the music, as a whole, which reminds me of a live performance within a live venue. All of the elements of that live experience seem reproduced faithfully by the CDSD & DCC2. This is no small feat. In quantitative terms I'd say the new gear is 25%-35% better, in every listening category (it is about the same in soudstage width), than the earlier 3 piece set-up I had.
As the new gear continues to burn-in there will certainly be changes and refinements, probably for the better, which I will try to keep track of. But so far- Ooh, La, La!!!
ASSOCIATED EQUIPMENT: Kharma Midi Grand Tenor 300 HP Jena Labs Pathfinder Shunyata Anaconda VX & VX Alpha
Brucegel: Hope things are going well with you! I did not like the LAGQ recording either, but could it be the engineer and not the equipment that was used? Pointing at the EMM Labs as being the blame is a bit short sighted.
Well I tried the manhattan transfers album vibrate and the list of mics used is kick-ass and they used millenia pres and meitner gear and once again the sound is plasticky and has the emm tonal touch of glass to every frequency I can pin point.I would be shocked if this is the adopted choice of recording in the future.
Brucegel- Which LAGQ album are you referring too? Guitar Legands or Latin? I must admit I was very let down with the sonics of Latin and haven't bothered trying Guitar Legends. What equipment was used during production is interesting but- IMO- often has little to do with the end project. If you have someone over mixing/dubbing/sampling/whatevering they can ruin a great performance no matter what gear they are using.
Just listened to the LAGQ ALBUM of covers with full meitner equipment used to record it.Most nauseatingly clinical sounding guitar album I have heard in a very long time.YMMV.
In the meantime, my own findings on X-01 are in the following thread: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1090867688&read&keyw&zzemm The thread also contains an excellent discussion by MGOTTLIEB, who appears to give the preference to X-01 in his comparison with EMM, and has since purchased the Esoteric unit. For redbook at least, he uses it mostly as a transport, augmented by DCS Elgar + Purcell.
Have any of you guys done some comparative listening of the EMM combo with the Teac Esoteric X-01? Have not listened to EMM yet, but have listened both to X-01 and to the Esoteric P70/D70 combo, and found both astonishingly good.
Just leave it turned on all the time. It is true that the DCC2 requires a long break-in period as well as warm up period, so I never turn it off unless I'm away from home for an extended period. The CDSD seems to stay on, even when on standby, unlike the DCC2 which just shuts down.
The magic isn't there until you mate it with the CDSD, not to my ears anyways.
Drhst20 is correct, if you haven't heard the DCC2 ( or DAC 6e for that matter) with the CDSD, you've not heard the this combnation is capable of. As good as the modded Phillips was as a transport, it pales in comparison to the CDSD. The difference is startling. And Jjwa, neither play time nor plugged in. Pilates.
Drhst20....I'm running my DCC2 through a "standard transport" via the TOSLINK connection as I await the CDSD.
Thanks for the reassurance..... I can hardly wait.
Right now I'm experimenting with using my NAGRA PL-L preamp and bypassing the DCC2 preamp.......it really, really opens up the sound! but I would like to wait until the DCC2 breaks in before passing final judgement. I read here on the ...GON that it takes 500 hrs. Does anyone know if that is 500 hrs PLAY TIME or just 500 hrs PLUGED in?
Jjwa....are you using a modified philips? I though I had heard what the DCC2 was capable of before I had a Meitner compatible transport...but now....WOW. It really makes all the difference. If you are just using a standard transport with the DCC2...be prepared to be impressed.
Out of the box, I was not so impressed, (I have the DCC2 replacing my CHORD DAC64 connected via TOSLINK on a CHORD BLU transport)......the sound seemed flat & hard. Now after about 10 hours play time it's a whole different storey. Everything I want to say about the DCC2 has already been said by some of you wonderful people on the ..GON and I will just regurgitate some of the highlights: natural, unbelievably detail, precise deep/wide/ soundstage etc. Thanks to all who posted their experiences (FBHIFI,TIREGUY, HOOPER, CEOL, JTINN.....etc.) I bought on your recommendations without ever having heard or seen. Now I'm just waiting for the CDSD that will probably bring me to the stratosphere.....
I need a freekin education. Half of you are my friends and I need a Oxford dictionary and grammer lessions just to read this thread.
Could you tone it down so that an old, under-educated feller just looking for great music can understand, without substantial investment in further education, what the hell you mean?
And who is lucky enough to actually get a CDSD? Most of us just get stories about one day we'll get ours.
I'm listening to a DCC2 with a Panasonic H1000 DVD player as a transport given the Philips doesn't play after 25 hours.
I think that when the room is tuned, we should have the good, the bad and the ugly all bring their digital gear and have a shoot out.
Then, each of us can lie about what happened.
The stories should exceed the number of people in the room. Friends, who heard from someone they trust and know that what they heard that they heard was better than what they heard someone else heard, but haven't heard.
I can't believe I need a dictionary to read a audio thread!
Tireguy, I can understand that you might hear the comparison differently, but rest assured that I am not the only one hearing this. In my experience I know two others that had EMM gear that sold it for the Exemplar and several others that on hearing the two solutions chose the Exemplar.
I would not use the word "engaging," but as I understand it, my word for this is "involving." This is precisely why I prefer the Exemplar. I find the music realistic and causing me to tap my foot and listen with satisfaction. Were the prices the same for the two, I am sure some might be inclined to buy the EMM, but at a four to one price difference, many would choose the cheaper unit.
Norm it seems weird that you are the only one who feels that way about the examplar/denon combo. I have heard it and was dissapointed. It seems listener preference is a big factor, I would sure have enjoyed preffering a much more cost effective solution to digital, however to my ears it isn't as engaging.
realrookie says, "One can argue that the Meitner may currently be the best digital playback system out there." It isn't. I just had the opportunity to listen to the DCC2 and transport combo. We had no vinyl with which to compare it, but it was a revealing system. I was unable to bring along my Exemplar/Denon 2900, but my listening impressions would hardly lead me to want to go back to EMM equipment. While detailed and listenable, the EMM had none of the realism and soundstage that is so evident with the Exemplar. I had really assumed given all that has been said here and on AA, that the DCC2 and transports were an improvement above and beyond the DAC6 and moded Phillips sacd 1000.
I thought I'd share what was evaluated by some audio buddies (Ceol included) and me recently. We had what you could call a digital vs. vinyl session where we A/B'd the Meitner DCC2 with its dedicated Meitner transport against a VPI Extended Aries w/ 12.5 arm, Koetsu Rosewood Signature cart, Electron Images MCP-1 (and Manley Steelhead on loan) phono stage, and the First Sound Paramount linestage.
SYSTEM The rest of the system included the DeHavilland Aries 845G monoblock amps and Coincident Millenium speakers (modded with Revelator tweeters, carbon fiber mids, TRS wiring, and crossover adjustments). Coincident TRS biwire speaker cables and all ICs were the Audience AU24s. The Sound Application power conditioner was used for the MCP-1 (or Steelhead), Meitner and turntable only. The Paramount and DeHavillands were plugged directly into the wall outlets. Sound levels were matched using the pink noise track from the Stereophile Test CD2. Finally, the Paramount's switching of the absolute polarity was also taken into account. We used audiophile offerings, each with the SACD and LP equivalents (and redbook CDs if SACD's could not be found).
One can argue that the Meitner may currently be the best digital playback system out there. Many agree that it has made giant leaps is closing the gap between the digital and vinyl. Our recent experience was very educational and quite revealing.
ASSESSMENT In short, it was no contest. The Meitner cannot compare to the lp experience: the effortless rendering of highs with lots of air and smoothness to the presentation; the palpability of the mids with its alluring sense of weight and body; the dynamics and transient attacks from top to bottom; the 3-dimentional rendering of the soundstage (front to back, left to right, and from one instrument/voice relative to another).
The MCP-1 (with no gain or no cartridge loading selectability) did not have the bass extension, articulation, tightness and control than the DCC2 and so it bows out gracefully here. But the Steelhead (especially at the 100 ohm load setting for the Koetsu) was simply magic. Vinyl is still king.
ADDITIONAL You may have already come across my assessment of the DCC2Â’s linestage vs. the First Sound Paramount (see the discussion hereÂ… http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1093257504&read&keyw&zzdcc2). I thought it also interesting to note that we did extensive A/B comparisons between the linestage of the Steelhead vs. the Paramount and the latter unanimously came out on top. There was never a question about the Manley's phono stage capabilities. This is well documented. However, it was intriguing to see that if its linestage was good enough I can have a one box solution (phono + pre). This was not to be as Emmanuel Go's linestage is simply more dynamic, more musical, more harmonically and tonally correct (during attacks and decays and in between), and more musically involving. Mind you that although it was not a night and day difference (a testament to how good the Steelhead is), the delta in performance from one unit to another was noticeable enough for a unanimous vote among the four audio club members who were crazy enough to go through this exercise. It would be interesting to get the Steelhead again and compare it to the linestage of the DCC2. Another worthwhile endeavor is to see how a no holds barred passive linestage compares to the ParamountÂ… stay tuned ;-)
I would love to hear whether your opinion of the DCC2 has changed any? Did you switch over to the supplied optical cable and if so, are you still underwhelmed relative to the AA Capitole ?
A little lesson for you all today (I am a trumpeter as well). It is a challenge to the awareness to be be vigilant and to guard against those who peddle the very nonsense they purport to debunk.
A little lesson for all of you today (I am also a frame drum/hand percussion teacher as well).When I say money boys it is to underscore the most uninteresting and least edifying way to approach the audiophile hobby which is to spend as much as possible on the most expensive equipment (everyone has their limits)knowing one has purchased the state of the art...whatever that is and in whose ever mind it may be defined.This entire hobby,passion,and yes ego aggrandizing(which means to increase ones rank) is built on this testing of the limits one is willing to reach to spend as much as possible.It is one of the greatest sell job hype jobs perpetuated on audio in all of recorded history(pun intended).IT DOES NOT HAVE TO BE THIS WAY.Many people suffer from this acculturation of the best and most exotic.It is a mental problem...not as in illness but as in a challenge to the awareness to be vigilant and to guard against it.For example I have a microphone preamp that costs me 150.00 dollars that is virtually indistinguishable from my 3000.00 preamp.I consider this to be a fantastic achievment far outweighing the no holds barred overpriced preamp.This is where the genius and excitement of this hobby exists and not in the money boys who buy the latest greatest most expensive gear which appears/disappears every few months.Just my two cents which I probably spent one cent too much on just now.
I guess I am painted with the broad brush as a "money boy" for whatever use there is in this blah, blah. I would agree about the continuum from great detail with a lack of harmonics to a more "musical" harmonically rich sound. I also think there is a scale of dynamics and one of degree of smear or undo smoothness that is often, but not always, a characteristic of tubes. All of this complexity fails to be of much use to me, as does how much the component costs. So in reality I would merely say once again that I now have to hear again the DCC2 to find out whether it can rival my untubelike Exemplar/Denon 2900 in my digital front end.
My experience with the emm gear is with their 8 channel dsd/pcm converter into a genex 9000 fed by a grace preamp and royer ribbon mics and geffel mics.This is 30,000 dollars worth of high end recording gear which I mention ONLY to elicit oohs and ahhs from the money boys out there(you know who you are).As a musician first and a audiophile recording engineer second I need to be very accurate and careful when describing acoustics,what a given mic and pre sound like (everything is a coloration...there is no neutral}etc..etc.So with this in mind I can tell you that the meitner sound is unparalleled for detail retrieval and the envelope of spatial retrieval is equally impressive yet it still has the digital taint that is inextricably part of the gene pool of digital.It is too hi-fi ish for my tastes.I ultimately fall on the colored sword of tube gear because this always in critical comparisons ends up sounding more live and thick and meaty and rich and enveloping like sitting in with a group of musicians sounds like to me.In the end it's all blah blah.
Brucegel- I would really love to hear you describe the sound of the CDSD/DCC2. I try to offer help the best I can, perhaps its not to the level that would satisfy you- but its the best I can do.
Given my other posts extolling the virtues of the Exemplar over the EMM, please don't assume that I am caught up in the rush to the DCC2/CDSD combo. I now am fairly confident that it is superior to the DAC6/Phillips sacd 1000 combo, which my Exemplar easily outperformed. So I will now have to give the DCC2 some leeway until I get to hear it.
Gladstone, are you an English professor or just bombastic?
On previous posts that had to do with CDSD / DCC2 I tried to keep enthusiasm in check (I got slammed for it, but I expected that) in order to keep someone from ordering one based on hype instead of realizing that maybe it is not the be all, end all CD - DAC combo. And maybe some people will not like the sound. Most of the posts were that it was the best combo out there. Well, not everyone has the same tastes.
The TT comment was just a fun jab, hence the smiley face.
TBG: It's easy enough to affect a lofty sneer, thereby demonstrating your own superiority to other audiophiles. But what's wrong with a little enthusiasm, anyway? Tireguy is using a few terms that, for better or worse, are among those what we have to describe an evanescent quality. All he's guilty of, if he's guilty of anything, is ebullience. Since when is that a crime?
Hifi nut, I hope you didn't run out and get the EMM based on all the hype. If you got that kinda money put it into a TT and you will get much better performance ;)
Tvad. If you're ever in the Palm Springs area you're welcome to come by for a listen. Right now my system is in some transition but should be ready in about 3 weeks. Frank Gortz
I disagree with Brucegel. Given the overall message in this thread, I think buyers are very happy with what they are hearing with this combo and more importantly for me, they find it better than the DAC6/Phillips 1000 combo which I have heard.
Greater realism is the name of the game, including a realistic soundstage, great dynamics, and involving music. As might be noted from another thread, words like dark may fail us as we are discribing what we hear, but until we can post sounds, it is all we have.
What is "ego inflated, overpriced gear?" What Brucegel cannot or will not afford?
Here we go again with the ego inflated overpriced gear.By the way how many people say that something sounds "more like the original recording" and was actually at the venue while it was being recorded and who can remember anything going back in time more than a few minutes anyway.If something you purchased is satisfying just say it without hyperbole.No one learns anything when the words like giant soundstage or sounds more lifelike get tossed around.Good night.
Hifinut- Try using the supplied digital cables(they should have come with the transport) and see what you think. Out of the box my DCC2/meitner transport combo outperformed my audio aero capitole mkII, the improvements were painfully obvious after the first song I listened to. In fact it was more like the first note I heard, there was a level of resolution and detail that I have never heard with digital. My soundstage has become HUGE, larger then with any other source I've used- and while I wouldn't call the mids lush they are, from all of my experience, not dry either more like accurate to the original recording.
Good luck getting everything straightened out, your in for a treat when you figure out what ever is causing the problem!
Hi I just got my DCC2 about 9 days ago. The remote was not functioning well and I was told that I will have to replace the microchip in the sensor. I have yet to pass the judgement as I compare it to my Audio Aero Capitole II. The soundstage sounds constricted, the mids are very dry. It sounds thin almost too perfectly sterile. I console myself that about 20 hours is still within breaking period. I certainly do not have the glowing experience of the other owners. I am running Meitner transport via Harmonic Tech digilink Platinum into EMM. EMM is connected via Jena Labs Symphony to Edge NL10 amp and via Kimbers bifocal XL to Kharma Midigrands. Any thoughts?
Good points, Ceol. Is there a DCC6 coming? On another thread there is obviously pressure on moders to do 6 channel mods on players, not that I have any interest.
Yes the DCC2 does sound better than the DAC6 / Switchman primarily due to its simpler / shorter signal path...
Remember the DCC2 is essentially two channels of the Studio DAC6 packaged with two channels of the studio switchman packaged in one chassis for two channel audiophiles.
BUT look closer...you dont just eliminate an interconnect with the DCC2...compare the signal paths:
DAC6/SWITCHMAN:
DAC6 DAC OUTPUT - DAC6 OUTPUT BUFFER - INTERCONNECT - SWITCHMAN INPUT BUFFER - GAIN CONTROL - SWITCHMAN OUTPUT BUFFER - INTERCONNECT TO AMPS.
DCC2:
DCC2 DAC OUTPUT - GAIN CONTROL - DCC2 OUTPUT BUFFER - INTERCONNECT TO AMPS.
The DCC2 eliminates TWO BUFFER STAGES and an INTERCONNECT .. and surely a short PCB trace to get the signal from the DAC to the Gain control is a lot better than any interconnect !!
Remember, less is more in the analog domain...the best results are acheived by the shortest / simplest signal path.
The only thing vital in all of these posts is that the DCC2 sounds considerable better than the DAC6/Switchman combo. If given a chance, I certainly will give it a listen, and I would love to have it side by side with the Exemplar/H-Cat combo.
Robm321: The only reason to listen to others' opinions is that, on occasion, you may learn something new & valuable. This knowledge could allow you to improve your stereo and, more importantly, your listening enjoyment.
Why are you addressing your comment to me? I'm not going to buy either way as stated in my previous post. I just like to hear what's out there and being friends with my dealer I get to hear most of the promising new stuff out there. I'm happy with my modest but musical setup.
And why would a "jury of your peers" be necessary if it is your stereo and everyone has different tastes? Why would I let my friends tell me what sounds good? If they say something sounds like crap and I like it, I get it anyway - end of story.
Trust me; I don't let HYPE skew what my ears hear.
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