Eminent Technology ET-2 Tonearm Owners
Steve yes I understand.I have been in contact privately with Kevin for a while now about the ET2. I "may" be part of the reason he has not yet committed to this madness. We have been discussing amongst other things how to remodel his house, to accommodate the pump I am recommending him buying 8^0. I got the message across that I give everyone - that one needs to be "all in" to make it truly work with an ET 2. It's a unique tonearm unlike any other I have ever owned, that lets you "dial in" after initial setup, to the rest of your chain. Like a team taking a race car to a different track. After the initial qualifying run, the tuning starts for the final race. They are on a deadline, we are not. The results can be very rewarding for the Audiophile.. If you recall many years ago, I acquired a Studer Tape Deck, and spent quite a bit on select tapes, including master tape dubs. They were incredible when I first heard them in my room. Became the reference point to shoot for - for reproduced music play. And if you recall it is what was used for reference against "Goldilocks and Three Turntables". An AudioGon search will allow someone to find out the detail with that adventure. Today, after years of tweaking, refining that ended maybe a couple of years ago, my vinyl rig matches, and on some of those tapes, surpasses their reproduction. I bought the Studer as a reference point. It will now need to be hotrodded, like my vinyl rig, to get back on top. Thats an expensive route I won't be doing anytime soon. So in the meantime it sits pretty much unused. I have a whole record library to get through, and Tidal - Hifi has cut into some of my listening. Cheers Chris |
^^^ For Beers and Cheers amongst mixed company, Hi Fi Steaming seems to fit the bill. Now if amongst the company there is an "audio gear" guy (always a guy so far), 8^0 ......they always prefer to see and hear two "tables" spinning at the same time, over one. I think all those accompanying lights flashing, at the same time as the two wheels spinning, does work towards setting an Expectation Bias? Do you know what I mean? |
Glad there are some decent members here who are genuinely concerned for other fellow members welfare and possible state of mind down the road! Yes it is not a decision to make lightly, the linear tracking route, mainly why I still have not decided. I can be reckless at times but this goes against everything I know and have grown comfortable with so it would be a whole new wide world out of my normal comfort zone. I know there is support and assistance only an email or phone call away but still...... |
Glad there are some decent members here who are genuinely concerned for other fellow members welfare and possible state of mind down the road! Kevin I think those Savannah and Bengal kitties, have the capability to mess with one's mind..........more than the ET2..... Just saying. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ************************************* in my previous post. ......they always prefer to see and hear two "tables" spinning at the same time, over one. I think all those accompanying lights flashing, at the same time as the two wheels spinning, does work towards setting an Expectation Bias? Here is the two "tables" reference https://photos.app.goo.gl/mUHKMobM53NhoCsm8 (not a good idea to set your turntable speed to the album version showing) |
Kevin I think it makes good sense for a new owner to purchase the tonearm already mounted on a table, regardless of where that turntable lies in pecking order. The reason is, as long as one accepts there will be a learning curve, this way one can learn how the tonearm works, get familiar with it. Tweak its’ setup. It eliminates that whole learning "setup" on a new turntable. That would be daunting to someone not familiar with the tonearm. Once one was comfortable with the tonearm, a decision can then be made about another turntable for the tonearm. JMO I can tell you every upgrade of turntable I did, The ET 2 tonearm went to new heights, which showed me clearly that the tables I was using were the bottlenecks. |
Exciting...... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhlXqYiTz2Q 8^0 *************** For kickers... Imagine that table setup in your room and the orientation of the ET tonearm. This is very important. What kind of track will that tiniest of signals run on ? Will it be a long course or a short one. We calculate the length. Measure the length from the headshell running along the armwand straight across and into your phono stage inputs. We add some length for a happy face loop. Then we get Gene (or somebody like) to build you some straight shot wiring. ***************************** Wiring Effect on Mechanics Unlike for example the Kuzma Airline, the ET tonearm does not need the wiring as a cradle. But its very smooth bearing, can make the wiring a problem for the ET 2, if not orientated properly. For this reason, the single shot wiring gets added last, after you confirm the tonearm works well mechanically. By adding in the wire after, you can verify setup, and you can confirm how much effect the wiring has on movement. Just some Out of the Box Setup advice. ***************************** oh and you call Bruce and get him to send you two long I Beams setup with single and double leaf springs. Then the fun can start. |
Well I guess the seller got all huffy at my offer ( which was not that low imho). He responded with the fact that he had already reduced from 2k to 1799 and was not open to any further reductions. When I then pointed out that he still had his listing stating or best offer, he then blocked me from making any future offers or dealings with him. TBH with that type of attitude I think I got away with a potential headache if lets say had been damaged in transit etc. Sorry Chris but looks like I am still on the outside looking in! |
Hi ncampbell Have you decided on the spot to put the ET mounting hole ? We discussed the Linn LP12 here last year. I did a quick search of emails and found the email trail with Bruce which I attach below for you. Hopefully the information helps you. I remember the consensus at the time was that the ET tonearm mount hole should be positioned very close to where the pivot hole is. So the ET 2.5 is mounted at an angle. The reasons due to the suspension designed for a back mount. This is referenced below. One way of attaching the ET 2 mount is to get a long enough Stainless bolt and nut with a large - small holed flat washer (Fender Washer) that itself is larger than your mounting hole. The washer will hold the bolt/nut tight and you can mount the ET base to it. ********************************************** Linn suspension https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBCQNTy1Kt0 ********************************************** re: aluminum mount. It has more heft, you can feel the difference in your hand when holding it. So as you are already dealing with a tricky suspension - I would forego it for now and go with the original carbon fiber. And then add the aluminum later if you like. JMO. I can tell you that the solid aluminum joint (gooseneck) for me changed resonances enough that the MM cart I was using became un- listenable with my 2.5 and Mag armwand. My turntable supports the aluminum mount with no issues. ********************************************** Email trail with Bruce follows - read from bottom up. Cheers Chris *********************************************** Chris This is probably the best strategy, the Linn, which is an excellent turntable, is designed similar to the original AR turntables 3 point spring suspension with a low natural frequency. The drawback is that the repositioning of 20 grams or so as a straight line arm traverses the record may deflect the suspension, I have not measured a Linn to know if this is the case. On a three point suspension like the Oracle, the ratio of masses was such that this was not a problem - brucet On 3/7/2019 7:16 PM, wrote: Bruce, "designed for a lighter load centered on the back side of the turntable where a conventional tonearm mounts." From what you are saying, the ET2, if this person really wanted to do this set up, should then mount it at an angle on the plinth at say 1pm, as close to where the pivot arm is mounted ? ---------- Original Message ---------- From: Bruce Thigpen <brucet@eminent-tech.com> Date: March 7, 2019 at 5:56 PM Chris This has been done a few times, you need to be very good with turntable set up, and it’s not ideal. The Linn suspension is designed for a lighter load centered on the back side of the turntable where a conventional tonearm mounts. It has been done but the potential user should be very good with tonearm setup and adjustment to complete the installation. - brucet On 3/7/2019 5:23 PM, Chris wrote: Bruce Someone is asking if he can mount an ET2 on a Linn LP12 turntable. I think the suspension is not appropriate based on this video. I have never owned one. Do you have customers using LP12 turntables ? Thx. Chris |
Mounting the tonearm via the current pivot hole does not work for a couple of reasons: a) the ET bearing spindle is not sufficiently long to allow the tonearm / cartridge to reach the outer diameter of the platter. The mount point, by necessity, has to be approximately half way down the arm board to allow the tonearm to reach the outer edge of the platter. b) The Linn pivot hole mount point pushes all the tonearm weight to the outer edge of the suspension. This is a necessary evil with traditional tonearms. With an armboard midpoint mounting the tonearm weight now rests between the two suspension points supporting the armboard/platter which seems like a much better solution. |
I would mount the tonearm closest to the One o’clock location, moving in from the current pivot mounting hole. Close enough so that the tonearm spindle is allowed full travel. This will probably put it close to where you mention ? I like pictures so. Here is a shot of the underside that shows the three suspension mounts "Red Arrows" that control everything. https://photos.app.goo.gl/iY4q68yf6tCFEUrt6 Picture shows the position approximately, for the mount of the tonearm on the tonearm board on the opposite side. When the ET 2 is mounted I would then take time to re-balance as necessary by added weight to the plinth in the appropriate areas - experiment - to get the right vertical bounce that is needed with the Linn. The tonearm asks for a straight tracking line, and this line can be anywhere on the platter. |
ncampbell - for consideration. Take a small piece of square wood thick enough to hold a wood screw and long enough to go through the ET2 mounting plate center hole. Attach the ET2 mounting plate to this free standing piece of wood. Assemble the ET2 .....WITHOUT cartridge, onto the mounting plate then while securely holding the tonearm, proceed to experiment and find the best position on the plinth. When the best spot is found for the tonearm. Use some green painters tape or like, to mark the 4 positions of the wood on the plinth. *********************************** Now remove the tonearm from the mount plate and the mount plate from the piece of wood. Put the piece of wood inside the lines of the painters tape. The hole in the wood tells you about where you will need to drill the small tonearm mounting hole, on the tonearm armboard for the center bolt to hold the tonearm. After doing the measuring exercise 3 more times.....then feel confident to drill the mounting hole. |
Please see the picture below. At the top left is the original Linn tonearm mounting point. This is where I first mounted the ET tonearm. The new ET arm mounting point is called out. I prefer this mount point because it is between the suspension points and is directly above the point at which the sub-chassis connects tot he armboard. https://photos.app.goo.gl/LQdv3P7Uw3RZf3FWA |
Brooks Berdan may have mounted more ET arms on tables than any other human. His first preferred table for the arm was the Oracle Delphi, for which he created a mod to keep the table's mass stable as the ET moved across the LP (Brooks had training in race car suspensions). He then mounted a lot of the arm on VPI's, first the HW-19 and then the TNT. Those table's higher mass provided a very stable platform for the arm. Brooks wasn't that impressed with the Linn, though he was an expert at setting it up. Brooks' preferred pivoted arm was the Graham. |
^^^^^^^ Quantity versus Quality setups. Dealers / Reviewers got to about a 6 or 7/10 tonearm capability on setup. I base this on the setup that was done on my previous HW19 MKIV and TNT turntables which both came with ET2’s. The ET2 ’s needed to be shipped on turntables for customers, in a user friendly setup. This affected the wiring arrangement and I Beam length (dust covers), amongst other things. Dealers gave a cursory glance to the I Beam setup - meaning - the motto was to throw all the weight on, even if was not all needed, and let the lead blocks end up..... wherever they end up. Hmmm.... single leaf spring with all that lead. Have you, Eric, ever witnessed this type of I Beam phenomena ? ******************************* Anyway, that was the setup level that dealers and reviewers got to, and heard, and was distributed to customers; Still the arm was rated as one of the best based on this. And like all good business goals based on volume. "Hey Bruce, send me some more arms please" "Ah and don’t fret over this CD thing everybody is raving about ." ******************************** Now imagine if these dealers/ reviewers, got to hear the tonearm, with the setups discussed in this thread ? How many dealers , reviewers, in later years have even actually heard the latest ET 2.5 with Mag Wand - Optimized Long I beam , Single Shot wiring with an MC cart? Single Shot ? Yes, even Bruce sets up with single shot in his personal set up.. ******************************* Eric, you represent on this thread a type of enigma to me. You see, from your postings, you are obviously one of Bruce’ biggest fans. Yet for some reason you have never chosen to own the product that this thread is about. So you can’t contribute direct end user tonearm experience. A real shame because you are passionate. 8^( ****************************** Audiophile Trivia Answer The TNT was designed for the ET2 when Harry and Bruce had a business relationship. attached Pic from the Robert Redford Movie. https://photos.app.goo.gl/WR7wMt5bD7tVeYPC6 Then Harry brought out his own tonearm for the TNT - and guess what - it didn’t fit on the plinth ! I know , I owned it. I also made a full plinth years ago. And I put the ET2 and the JMW 12 tonearms on it https://photos.app.goo.gl/LXD18UujFqVxyoDA9 Cheers |
True Chris, and for one reason: Choosing to go with Decca (and later London) pickups, the best LP playing system to install them in was, and is, the Townshend Rock (for reasons I won’t go into here) That table prohibits the use of a linear tracker, of course. I have been listening to LP’s on that combination for 30 years now: a London Super Gold on a Rock Elite Mk.2, with a number of different arms, currently a Zeta. It’s just like one’s favorite loudspeaker requiring a certain type of power amplifier, one which may not be as good with any other loudspeaker. I think the transducers should be the first components chosen when assembling a system, the two opposite ends of the chain (ignoring for the sake of this discussion the room). Then the most appropriate components moving towards the center of the system (the pre-amp) chosen to optimize the transducers. That’s my system philosophy. You obviously know that’s a good approach by having a Music Reference RM-10 for your QUAD ESL’s. I’ve never agreed with the idea of choosing a power amp first, then looking for a loudspeaker it can drive. Transducers are the "voice" of a system. For myself, the character and abilities of the Decca and London pickups are more important than the arm they are mounted on. But I recently got myself a couple of old VPI’s just for fun (and for a song), and happened to see a pic of a London Reference mounted on a linear tracker that looked like it was made from a children’s Erector Set (remember those?): the Trans-Fi Terminator. If Brooks were still around, and I had more disposable income, I would print out this whole thread and have him set me up an ET. But the Terminator is SO cheap, and so simple, it was just irresistible. It’s no ET, but the one Vic made me has the last of the silver wire he had: a straight shot from the cartridge clips to the KLEI RCA plugs on the far end. I’m waiting to get back from Harry the TNT bearings I sent him for refurbishing with Si3N4 ball bearings I sent along, the Terminator going onto an Aries 1 (with a TNT-5 platter). |
Eric - Firstly understand that I respect your choices and approach. With that. Bdp24 - It’s just like one’s favorite loudspeaker requiring a certain type of power amplifier, one which may not be as good with any other loudspeaker. I have that amplifier that plays all speakers well. And I have that tonearm that plays all cartridges well and can be mounted on most any turntable. A few posts up read about the Linn LP12 / ET 2.5 project currently underway. I think the transducers should be the first components chosen when assembling a system, the two opposite ends of the chain (ignoring for the sake of this discussion the room). Then the most appropriate components moving towards the center of the system (the pre-amp) chosen to optimize the transducers. That’s my system philosophy. It's been my personal experience, this being a Quest centered around resonances and vibrations to get a signal - that the more capable turntable/tonearm and less capable cart - will outperform - the more capable cart which is on a less capable tonearm/turntable. so... In my Audio Quest the objective has been to get to a .....Constant...... with the Turntable / Tonearm . The Cartridge becomes the ......Variable. The Cartridge is the wearable, ever changing variable, like tires on the car. Replaceable. Now here is the "thing". What tonearm can play all cartridges, and be mounted on many turntables; for the above analogy is not possible without this tonearm capability. The ET 2.0 and 2.5 are two versions of such tonearms. just saying.....¯\_(ツ)_/¯ You obviously know that’s a good approach by having a Music Reference RM-10 for your QUAD ESL’s. I have 3 available rooms of varying sizes and materials with 4 kits set up. A kit being any whole system which satisfies Audiophile primal needs. In all The Rooms... - The Room is the Master ----> The Speakers are slaves to the Room ----> and Amplifier is the Slave to the Speaker. |
Agreed 100% Chris. Except (;-): 1- The Decca/London sound is SO different, and unique unto itself. No other pickup I’ve heard makes LP’s sound so alive, so much like live music, and that is true regardless of the arm it’s mounted on, the amount of wear on it’s stylus, etc. 2- Yes, the RM-10 is great on speakers other than the QUADS, but it is totally inappropriate for, say, Maggies (the RM-200 is good on Maggie ribbon tweeters, though). Plus, Roger used the ESL (and the Vandersteen Model 2) for his load in the design phase of the RM-10. I love your -----> master/slave illustration! The room, finally getting the attention it deserves. I just received notification my carton of Vicoustic Multifuser DC2 diffusers have landed (from Germany) in Chicago. I should have them the middle of next week, unless the virus is slowing things down. Stupid virus (uh oh, is that joke too "insensitive" for the now-easily offended?). I’ll bet there are people who want it to just go away so they can get back to their, say, golf course ;-) . |
Seeing a 8 year old thread that's still going with the OP is encouraging. Having a little time on my hands, the thought of my own franken table(10 year old VPI Classic) with a linear arm, intrigues me. Who in SoCal has the knowledge to do such as mod?Since Berdan is a different place now, who is the linear god in LA? Just kickin around random thoughts... I haven't done anything audio for awhile. |
Tom - I believe that is the one that we were discussing earlier with UberW - Kevin. Buyer/Seller negotiations did not go well ? *************************************** Re; My "Room is the Master" -comments .....of course there will always be exceptions. In my situation....one Savannah Cat....has been known to shutdown whole rooms and prevent ESL speakers from being charged up. **************************************** @bdp24 bdp24 - Yes, the RM-10 is great on speakers other than the QUADS, but it is totally inappropriate for, say, Maggies (the RM-200 is good on Maggie ribbon tweeters, though). Plus, Roger used the ESL (and the Vandersteen Model 2) for his load in the design phase of the RM-10. Eric - I wasn’t referring to the RM10 amp. The amp I was referring to was this one. **************************************** bdp24 - The Decca/London sound is SO different, and unique unto itself. No other pickup I’ve heard makes LP’s sound so alive, so much like live music, and that is true regardless of the arm it’s mounted on, the amount of wear on it’s stylus, etc. Ok so what is your honest opinion Eric, of these reviewers opinions.....please. I ask because I have no opinion, never owned, and their reviews imply it is not an every day cart. Martin Colloms re:Jubilee But not everything fared as well; in terms of both music and noise, it was difficult to predict what I was going to hear when I dropped the stylus in a groove. Some records that are silent when tracked by the Lyra Titan were full of pops, ticks, and other garbage through the London. |
Ah Chris, it is an RM-9 you have, not a 10. I guess I forgot ;-). I had a talk with Roger about which to use with the ESL, a conversation I can share at another point in time. Onto the Decca/London!: My first Decca was a Blue, and I, like Colloms and Fremer, couldn’t live with it. I got myself a moving coil (A Supex, with a Levinson JC-1 head amp), and forgot all about Decca’s. I got out of hi-fi (traveling too much, never living in one place long), but was drawn back in the mid-80’s. I discovered the writings of Harvey Rosenberg, who was just starting New York Audio Labs. He, along with Ken Kessler of Hi-Fi News & Record Review, were the world’s leading Decca fanatics and experts. I wrote Harvey a letter, and he looked up my number and gave me a call! He gave me quite a Master’s Class in Decca usage: the cartridge can not just be dropped into a system in place of a "normal" cartridge. THAT’S why I have been using the Townshend Rock table ever since. The Decca’s (and to a lesser extent the London’s) demand not just mechanical damping (provided by the Townshend trough), but electronic as well. Harvey lead me through how to create a tank circuit to combat the electrical resonance inherent in Decca’s, which surprisingly affect tracking. Did you see the review of a lower-priced London by Art Dudley in his Stereophile column a few years back? Worth reading. Ken Kessler has not lost his love of Decca/London’s (I’ve discussed them with him at CES, where I unsuccessfully attempted to get him to sell me one of his Garrott Decca’s) has been covering them for years; his reviews are of much more value than those of Colloms and Fremer. And lastly, the London’s are not nearly as fickle as were the Decca’s. And the Reference---at $5295, not a "Decca" to dabble with ;-)---is VERY different. Just as the QUAD ESL is not for everyone, or all systems, or even all music, so too with the Decca/London. But for my priorities, there is no alternative. My first loves are songwriting, singing--both melody and harmony, and acoustic instruments. At that, both the Decca/London and QUAD ESL are unbeatable. In addition, tomic601 is quite right: NOTHING reproduces drums as do Decca/Londons. The transient attack, the head-snapping dynamics, the explosiveness, the startling aliveness, the "immediacy"; the cartridge is the equivalent of a direct-to-disk LP, like hearing The Who with Keith Moon up close, which I did twice! |
bdp24 - Harvey lead me through how to create a tank circuit to combat the electrical resonance inherent in Decca’s, which surprisingly affect tracking. Eric, Can you please provide more detail on how you created this tank circuit? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LC_circuit I am sure other Decca cart owners (potential and existing) on this thread would appreciate the info as well. I am of the belief that good phono preamps have the electronic circuit design qualities, to deal with electronic resonance. But I never owned a London or Decca. In my "Panic Room" , my preamp that I use has a hot rod mode - One flip of the switch bypasses all circuits except what is needed to create the simple signal. I run MC's at 47k, the noise floor is very low, and I use unshielded single shot wiring direct to the preamp. **************************** Ah Chris, it is an RM-9 you have, not a 10. I guess I forgot I own both Eric. See my virtual system - click on the avatar. A few years ago my RM9 was totally rebuilt by a local person and was well - let's say it was turbocharged. It was built up a little. RM9's can be used with the Quads as long as one has self control. Obviously an over kill situation. But it provided me at the time with a glimpse of the "tone" I wanted with the Quads, and that led me eventually to the RM10 years ago as well. My Achilles Heel is speakers. Like Boats have not met one I didn't like and could not make work. I don't mess around with amplifiers. and I don't get emotional about them. They are Slaves for the speakers. They better work. I don't tolerate downtime, and IMO amps are the most likely component to fail in the chain. My RM9 bettered 200 wpc OTL monoblocks in a shootout some years ago. As you know RM9's became too expensive (for whatever reason) for Roger to continue to make. I believe they were a special order item only. How the RM9 compares with Dan's Krell 600 that is own is very interesting. |
@bdp24 Eric not sure if you saw the question above. Can you please provide more detail on how you created this tank circuit?I have had a couple emails asking about this circuit. If you have any information on this, pls post. Thanks Chris Hope this post finds everyone well. Stay Safe, Social Distance, Stay Well . |
Best wishes - & hopefully less long states of mental hibernation or coronation... I wanted to bring to your attention this jewel of a technical discussion from Pierre Lurné: https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/lurne_air_bearing_e.html now, well... :-) - even a french emperor walking the naked truth may be clothed by invisible (very, very) small pieces of textiles covering some sensible parts of the body (impeding some directions of clear vision). Even if he's called Prince Pierre Lurné who built one or two of the most beautifullly and perfectely crafted one point tonearms. (Which sound excellent too.) - split horizontal and vertical resonances are rather an advantage than a drawback. (I've not seen or read ever convincing proof of the opposite, and Moerch is following this path with his top arm). - therefore some of the cartridges with remarkably good bass do feature distinctively different compliances in both planes leading to the same split resonances with conventional tonearms. (eg. Decca, all true mono cartridges like Myajima). - Listening, measuring and comparing the vibrations on the headshell of the ET2 vs. the vibrations on the outer bearing housing with a measuring coupler showed a remarkably similar frequency response at least up into the upper midrange. Ie. the air bearing seems to be pretty stiff & well coupling to audible frequencies. The ultrasonic spectrum hitting conventional roller bearings, seems to me rather a multitude of metal to metal resonances of scattered and reflected energy back into the arm modulated by slightly elastic and moving point contacts. Ie. a process prone to a certain alu-foil on comb quality, a form of distortion. So I think the air bearing grounds vibrations rather well - and without introducing variable noises (except those inherent to the air film itself, which are like a very low level stable white noise). |
Hi all, I thought I would post and say hello. Sota Saphire (non vacuum); original owner when I purchased in 1985. ET2 with the carbon fiber wand Shelter 901 mark 3. I put my pump and air tank (2 liter bottle) in the garage wall. https://photos.app.goo.gl/WbKvb5MEAq9hGfAq8 After using the Sota for 35 years, I turned in my Sota to Donna and had her team completely restore/upgrade (Dec 2020) my Sota (mag lev bearing, Eclipse controller / motor, chassis, platter upgrades). I noticed a material difference in the noise floor drop immediately. Picture of our music room: https://photos.app.goo.gl/Cr4AW1VgXBQatBE38 I have never had an operational problem with the ET2; it was setup very well when Sota/ET2 were the hot ticket back in the mid 80’s. -stu |
I'm the proud new owner of an ET-2.0 attached to a SOTA Star Sapphire and looking for cartridge advice. Tonearm has the original aluminum wand single leaf spring on the I-Beam. I've seen the yellow sticky, but I'm still learning about the concept of cartridge compliance. It came with a Shure M97xE with who knows how many hours on it and sounds "fine". I put my newer Nagaoka MP-110 on and that was a noticeable step up. I'm shopping around for $200-400 cart and wondering what would take it to the next level (and pair well with this tonearm). Anybody have experiences with these on the ET-2: AT VM-540ML AT VM-740ML Nagaoka MP-150 Grado Opus3 Denon 103R Hana E or any other suggestions in that price range? |
Thanks for the PM Tim - as it alerted me to the thread. Guys, I have been away and am in the middle of moving house. My gear is being consolidated into one large room. I have decisions to make regarding speakers. 8^0 Hello Pegasus and welcome to the thread Stu and DJspinner. Djspinner - I have my doubts that you are going to use your new kit for DJ work 8^0 Congrats on the ET 2. The ET 2 design allows for "any" cartridge to be used by swapping out armtubes and I Beam leaf springs. Also with its patented worm gear VTA system, does not change VTF when you raise and lower VTA. All other tonearms regardless of design change VTF when you adjust VTA. Someone name another? This makes the ET2 still IMO one of the most advanced tonearms on the planet, and from my personal experiences the most advanced. Your choices DJspinner. AT VM-540ML 40 x 10-6 cm/dyne AT VM-740ML 40 x 10-6 cm/dyne Nagaoka MP-150 18 x 10-6 cm/dyne Grado Opus3 Compliance: 20μm/mN Denon 103R 5 x 10-6 cm/dyne Hanna E 17 x10-6cm dyne As a general guideline in the numbers above. the higher the first number, stick to the aluminum armtube. As you go lower (15-20) consider getting the Carbon Fiber or Magnesium Armtubes from Bruce Thigpen. Definitely get Bruce to send you the new longer I Beam with double leaf springs. This longer I Beam eliminates half the counterweight needed and this increases vertical inertia. From my experience the double leaf spring works better with all cartridges except those with the highest compliance. So we are trying to (for those looking to better the sound) match the better armtube and leaf spring to the cartridge compliance. You will hear the difference if that is your pursuit. This compliance word that we keep hearing about, I simply refer to how springy and soft/hard the suspension of cartridge is - that holds the cantilever/stylus in place. The softer/springier the suspension the higher the first number. I think of Cars that come with buttons now that change the suspension from soft (cushy ride) to hard (sporty). Those that are fans of vintage carts.....that suspension has hardened over the years lowering the compliance. We can still get music from a cartridge that is not matched to the better suited ET2 armtube/leafspring setup. It just won’t sound as good as what you can get from a well-matched combination. These types of choices that change "real mechanical aspects", are part of what makes IMO, this analog hobby so much more interesting and involving than digital. Can there be a better hobby during a lockdown ? unless you are moving house.... Stay safe, stay well. |
So you would advise against me lugging around two 45 pound SOTAs to a DJ gig? Ha! I do love fine tuning the VTA while playing records, but it takes a very steady hand, given my springy table suspension system. Thanks for the detailed explanation on compliance. I'll probably stick with the current I-Beam length. It looks like the previous owner may have cut the I-Beam shorter (to the 6 mark) in order to allow the dust cover to close properly. The threaded rod that holds the lead weights in place has to point inward to avoid sticking out as well. Given the range of cartridge options out there, I'd like to try to match the cart with the tonearm setup as it stands, especially given the range of quality cartridge options. Once I get more comfortable with the table adjustments and possible modifications, then I may revisit. So given those factors, a cartridge with a compliance number higher than 20 should pair best with my current tonearm setup? |
Hi all & Dj... Just my thoughts: Your selection of cartridges is tasteful, even mouthwatering... Generally there is only one sort of cartridges I'd rather stay away except for a wish to abuse time, like to teaching a rhinoceros to dance. This is the combination of high horizontal compliance with low damping. This means Deccas, maybe the DJ Decca (double tie-back string) mightwork - this would be highly interesting. (It's worth the hassle, but...) Myhigh compliance B&O MMC1 (root of the Soundsmiths) works *superbly* even if it shouldn't. This is because it's "well behaved" = damped. The new ATs are higly interesting - I'd look maybe more for the 500 series and a Shibata tip. I read a careful review in a german journal where they hinted at a slightly more upbeat character of these vs. the more refined (aka. slightly over-civilized) 700 series. (There are technical reasons for that). They play in the league of the Ortofon Black. The Nagaoka I don't know, the Grado might be less damped (mechanically) and a bit more characterful=" musical !!!". The Denon and Hana seem to be winners. Specially the Denon but maybe the Hana too will profit from a 5g brass "shim" between headshell and cartridge. This worked wonders with a DL 103 in a friends Thales Simplicity arm. There are IMO no reasons to expect different on the ET2. The lower compliance of these two MCs will make setup somehow easier specially on a springed subchassis turntable. |
BTW - constant VTF isnt’t the issue of the arc-block for VTA adjustment. It is the constant (zero) overhang with different VTAs. Increasing VTA by increasing the height of the pillar of a radial arm, the arm shortens in the horizontal plane. Thus overhang is reduced:... by 0.5 mm for a 9" arm with a change in VTA of 3.8 degrees... which IMO is close to academical... :-) The VTF varies with height if the counterweight is "underhung" or "overhung". Ie. if the centers of gravity of arm tube / cartridge and the counterweight "connect" below or above the horizontal bearing. This is the case with most univipots and strongly with the Well Tempered arms. What is special with the ET2 is that one can perfectly balance this (if one wants to and knows what to do :-). |
@ct0517 End of November 2020 I was having my Sota Saphire restored by Sota. Since I had the ET2 removed (before I shipped table), I called ET; I was checking in to see if there was any other maintenance / updates that I should have done by ET. A gentleman responded, not Bruce. I could be wrong, but I don't think Bruce is working (maybe retired?) with ET anymore. The gentleman said ET focusing only on speakers now; I think I recall him saying the machining was just too labor intensive so they are just focusing on speakers. I don't even think they are doing any more service work. Not sure about parts, but I suspect they are selling off whatever non speaker products/parts related to arms left in inventory...as mentioned on their website re. buying an ET2.5. |
@stuogawa @djspinner et al Bruce is around. He just responded to my email.
With that. We all recognize that Bruce will not be around forever, but this tonearm IMO is indestructible. I mean, if its disassembled in parts in its box, and you accidentally leave it on the driveway and run it over, that's one thing. Barring an accident it will outlive all of us. Its biggest threat is moisture in the air line and minerals deposits, that can land on the manifold blocking air flow and movement. Even then the ET2 manual can be downloaded and does a great job of explaining how to clean it. Unlike mechanical bearings that go dry and stiff, if you have a good trap for moisture there is nothing really to do except maybe keep it covered when not used for protection against dust. Pumps are easily replaced. JMO |
So given those factors, a cartridge with a compliance number higher than 20 should pair best with my current tonearm setup? Hi Djspinner From a numbers view point it would be the most "plug and play".... but here's the thing. I can tell you that there are people here that are using very low compliance carts like the Denon 103 with the aluminum armwand, and they have made changes in their kit to improve "the sound". Some have modified the actual aluminum armtube itself, added less resonant wrap to it, or filled the head of the wand with material. Others have made other modifications further down the chain of gear. fwiw also I run all MC cartridges with no load. If your preamp/phono stage can take it and stay stable...try it. @stuogawa Hi Stu - what speakers are those in your room? Cheer Chris |
@ct0517 I built and using the Siegfried Linkwitz’ LX mini + 2 speakers https://www.linkwitzlab.com/LXmini/LXmini+2.htm Siegfried and Nelson Pass (Pass Labs / PassWorks) collaborated and designed an active analog JFET crossover for the this specific system (neighbors in NorCal). Fun build. https://www.magiclx521.com/epages/17940394.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/17940394/Products/%22ASP%20mi... I was a 30 plus year fan of bipolar speakers (Acoustats, Magnaplanar II’s and Tympani’s). I stumbled upon the Linkwitz/Pass collaboration at the San Francisco Burning Amp about 4 years ago. These were also a fun build...and now my final speakers for my lifetime. System to drive the LX Mini + 2 system: Sota --> Wavestream Kinetics phono tube preamp --> Wavestream Kinetics tube line --> Pass crossover Pass crossover output 1 (full range) to MFA 200c tube mono amps --> LX mini Seas full range speaker Pass crossover output 2 (woofer) to Audio Research SS --> LX mini Seas woofer Pass crossover output 3 (sub woofer) to Audio Research SS --> LX subs (Seas) |
