I found and read a couple of older threads regarding these speakers, I've been talking with the dealer, and I have read everything I could find on the internet. I understand the DSP's role and the need to bi-amp. The last step befor I plunk down the plastic, is to ask those of you that have them what you think?
What are the pluses and minuses? If you have had them for a couple of months are you still happy? any regrets?
IMO, they are no more or less critical than other high end speakers. I've used Conventional Class AB, ICE and tube amps to drive them. Ive also tried a few different IC's and speaker cables now...All the changes are readily apparent to my ears.
The DCX will allow you to change gain very easily from the front panel of the Behr. This makes them flexible enough to use with differing amps. In that way, you could consider them somewhat forgiving and flexible.
Taking into account that the Behr is a stock unit and not a high dollar component..You still need to put quality components in the amplification and front end as it will matter. Some guys have asked whether it matters what NOS tubes you use in upstream equipment as it seems that the DCX would be a limiting factor..BUT, it does make a difference..as said..these changes are easily heard.
What makes them more forgiving is their hi efficiency at 100 dB, thus you can use a wider range of amplification to drive them.
Nice pictures on your system pics. They look a bit lumpy back there but I guess that's the way it is. Mye stands or Sound Anchors (if available) would greatly benefit here.
I have tried a few different amps (both tubes and solid state) on the CS2's and while they have sounded good to excellent, I will say that your amps better have a low noise floor, especially tube amps.
While you don't need a lot of watts, at 100db (which I am honestly not sure how accurate that measurement is - I have a 96db pair of speakers and they seemed to play as loud or louder with the same setup), you do want to feed the CS2's as high quality amplification as possible.
The best combination I have found amp wise probably isn't the most practical, but for my tastes it is the cat's meow!
Atma-Sphere M-60's on the tweeter and Bella Extreme 100's run in pentode mode on the woofers. This four tube mono block configuration uses 38 tubes in total and I don't even want to think about my electricity bill. :-(
While I won't say the CS2's are the best speaker I have heard or owned, they are very good and hopefully they will be more than the flavor of the month.
Kck- You may call it "threadcrapping" (new term to me but I am way too old to be a digital native); I imagine Tvad calls it healthy skepticism seasoned with a soupcon of cynicism. I don't think any insult was intended, but then again, neither of us is a direct party to the exchange. If peacemaking w/o apologizing is the same as agreeing to disagree, then I'm all for it. In fact I'm all for peacemaking in any form. This is not that serious an issue. For me at least, its like having a beer with folks of similar bent; friendly "arguments" discussions, whatever. As our friend warrenh would say; peace.
Swampwalker, this page may give you and tvad some idea of insinuation and related etiquette: http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/16/rs.phrases.to.avoid/index.html
If you are "too old to be a digital native", then you are surely old enough to remember when people in public had manners. And no, my meaning was not "agree to disagree". (People have a hard time with being corrected nowadays and look for alternative endings as a result; your suggesting this is an example).
My meaning simply was: "that's bad behavior and stupid to boot". Too bad I had to explain it. Now I will let it rest, but will understand if you must have the last word. I may re-join this thread to discuss the speaker, but will not address this topic again. There's only so much one can do or say to get the message across.
I would buy the Emerald Physics CS-2 sight unseen just because of who said what about them and because I have been hearing about open baffle speakers for a couple of years now. The idea makes sense to me and this particular attempt at the design concept has been roundly applauded.
Besides that, Underwood Wally is the consummate entrepreneur. You can bet he knows what he is doing in buying a monopoly on these speakers.
The open baffle concept for the bass is wonderful but I'm wondering how the compression driver mates to the bass. There is probably some loss of coherency here. It's very hard to beat the coherency of a single driver like an electrostat or a double mouth back loaded horn. CS-2 is a two way speaker.
I use Single driver speakers and love them, but I must admit the CS2s are just as coherent as my SDs. I do not hear any coherency problems. You really should hear them set up properly before passing judgement.
So far they are the only speakers with full bass I've heard recently that I could live with. If it's not TL or open baffle bass ..I'm really not interested.
This was one of my concerns (the other is the AD-DA conversion, which I still need to run some tests on, but suffice to say at this point that I do not notice digital nasties. At all.)
I have tried very hard to pick out a coherence issue. Listening to various kinds of music at various volumes, unfamiliar as well as the numbingly familiar, I cannot say there is anything going on in the crossover or in the fabric of the music as it is handed off between lower and upper. It is important to note that you should work at the gain in the crossover, even if your amps are of like gain. I have not tried two identical amps so can't say there, but likely that will be ok with the factory settings.
I alluded to the benefits of two amps earlier. The gain adjustability is part of this flexibility for me... on some recordings which are voiced hot, I can drop the upper gain perhaps 1/10 or 2/10 of a dB, and things are more listenable. Perhaps the purists will barf all over this technique... I'm not a purist. As I said before, I know what I like and I like a system that lets me tailor the sound within reason.
Well, I couldn't stand by anymore. The CS 2s are a godsend for me as they work very well with my SET amps on the treble. I've owned more speakers than I care to mention. Forgotten more than most people have a chance to hear.Ranging from $2000.00 to $20,000.00 a pair and the CS 2s are as good as any of them. Because you free up your SET to do only 1000 hz up really lets you hear what a SET is all about. The EQ doesn't bother me cause it's about the sound that I'm about. They can be forward or relaxed depending on your adjustments of the gain. You can even change it per your mood or music. My system is so dailed in now it's scary live sound. Some don't like a live, upfront sound so, you would not want to choose a SET amp for the top end.Boy, I like it though. Nice to get 98 db if you want it with no compression from a 4Watt SET on the top. Enjoy Kehut and Zybar! I sure am!
[Because you free up your SET to do only 1000 hz up really lets you hear what a SET is all about]. I disagree philefreak a SET can produce wonderful mid-bass-bass etc if loudspeakers are up to it and Ive built - heard many that are. You enjoy your system and thats the point but the above maybe right for you but not for me. I want a SET to run all and it can.
Almost too much to bear, eh Todd? Dont forget Kck ( happy CS-2 owner!)
Thanks for affirming your thoughts on the CS-2. Im very happy, but with an eye on Claytons new Mid priced DCX due out next month or so...but honestly, even if that were not in the picture.Id be perfectly happy with my sound.
George,
Great job with your set up. Knowing you have ( and have had ) a few nice set ups over the years..The Cs-2's are so very impressive indeed. 38 tubes!! WOW! Nice! I recounted in my own set up and tabbed closer to 23 tubes.....good tube amps do make a nice difference from some other nice SS amps Ive tried. I bet the Atma's and Bella's are excellent together. Happy listening ;-)
Gmood1 and Macrojack
Wonderful of you to say so...thanks for posting your thoughts...I do hope the OP will be able to try these out before too long.
Johnk, Totally agree with you... My opinion S.E.T. is totally wasted running a Tweeter alone with a fraction of a watt.. Way too much money, and capable amplification for such a task. The best Deepest beyond subwoofer type bass, mid-bass punch and magical mids I ever heard where driven by pure Low power S.E.T thru a Full range speaker, no bi-wire, no bi-amping.
I agree as well John. But, that said to get that 1000Hz down from the SET (IMHO) always required a horn bass. Which was big as a refrigerator and not very practical. Plus, the fact that a two way design with a passive crossover will suck up some watts. That's why anybody who have owned Altecs, older Klipsch, etc. found that they needed more power that they would have thought. I do wish the CS 2 would crossover at a lower point,say, 500Hz. Clayton's new reference he is designing will have a lower crossover I'm told. So, that will get some of that lower Hz magic from the SET amp. I would like to hear what you can build that would play the full range from the SET amp and have no compression, full resolution, and linear. I know the SET amp can do this and agree with you that it's the speaker needs to be up to it. I have no doubt that it can be done (by you or others) but, at what price tag? BTW, guys I'm not a speaker builder, designer. I'm just someone who has played with a lot of speakers trying to get the best out of a SET amp.I think we're on the same page but, just getting to the end result in a different manner.
Philefreak, There is no doubt you need fairly efficient, and well designed bass drivers in a cabinet capable of air movement to get the magic of S.E.T. bass down as far as 10 hz. Some of the old' horns and klipsch with low excursion, not low tuned cabinets like most klipsch heritage series will not get you sub atomic bass, however I have heard 20 watt S.E.T do it on the right speaker, and totally kill 1000 watt subwoofers even, and the integration was so good that you laugh at using all the extra amps in the end..
I have done it all different ways, and found doing it right really requires one tube mono per channel, and you can get it all with some care and matching.. This is not always conventional or cheap however, so these Emerald physics can fill that void for those not blessed to use these options with full S.E.T power, and you can always force more low end response using DSP's and equalization to correct things in the design of the speaker or your room, win win, but takes more equimpment and more power switches to turn on and off!
While, I'm a SET advocate, I agree completely that sticking a 3 W amp on even a 100 dB speaker may not always yield the best results. This depends somewhat on the speaker,amp, room combination.
However, I do disagree about your comment that SET amps having problems below 1000 Hz. I realize the 1000 Hz number comes from the crossover point of the CS2 so it was a number that was thrown out in discussion.
The modern pitch standard for music is 440 Hz, which is A4 (the A note above middle C) and the 49th key on a piano. This is right in the middle of the piano and hardly in the bass region nor difficult for a SET amp to reproduce. The normal frequency range for the average human voice in normal conversation is about 80 Hz to 1100 Hz. Obviously, talented individuals can go much higher or lower. However, the normal vocal range is below 1000 Hz. One traditional strength of SET amps is their presentation of human voice. A soprano is expected to cover from C4 (261.626 Hz) to C6 (1046.50 Hz). So saying SETs can't handle music below 1000 Hz is a bit off. Now, getting below 40-60 Hz becomes tricky. Certainly getting to 20 Hz is downright difficult without a gigantic bass horn.
A 500 Hz lower cutoff for a compression driver is a pretty severe requirement on both the driver and the horn/waveguide if you want the driver to cover 500 Hz to 20 kHz. 800 Hz is a more reasonable and achievable goal. There are compression drivers rated down to 500 Hz and go up to 20 kHz (usually a larger 2" driver). But, you do want some head room (say 1/2 octave) below the crossover point. 500 Hz is pretty hard to do and it is debatable whether there are any advantages. At that point, going to a three-way design may be a better option.
I never said a SET amp couldn't do sub 1000Hz well. I was trying to say that I've never found a speaker that could do it correctly even though the SET amp was doing it's job perfectly well(like you said better than most other amps) I know what SETs are capable of. I beleive that power kills an any amp, tube or solid state. This is my opinion and only that. So, high power advocates please start another thread. That said all my favorite SET amps are 45, PX 4,and 2A3 output tubes. All are under 5 watts. So, It's unrelistic, and I've tried, to expect a 5 watt amp or under to run two drivers with a passive crossover to realistic levels. Realistic being 85/90 db without any strain what so ever plus, real bass and weight in the 30Hz to 1000Hz region. I know it can be done but, for goodness sakes. Look at the bass horn you'd have to have. I know and understand that a lot of you look at the CS 2 as cheating to acheive the results I'm getting or that they are capable of. I used to be one to not want any digital involvement at all or as little involvement with anything as far as that goes. Simpler was better. I just got a real digital source a couple of years ago. I've had cd players, just never took them serious. I can relate. Heck, I even got mad at tubes once and swore I'd never listen to tubes again! LOL! But, the magic (SETs) kept after me constantly as I was listening to other P/P tube designs and solid state amps. They could drive the dickens out of speakers! I could never get as involved in the music. I kept telling myself that this is accurate! So, when your talking 2 to 4 watts per channel you better have some serious speakers. After hearing the CS 2s everything just fell into place and since I've had them (CS 2) I've not bothered to upgrade anything and that's saying something for this old, never satisfied audiophile as myself!
Philefreak-I get your point. I do understand what you mean when speakers don't play to realistic levels and seem to just run out of gas. But in my experience, this usually happens at frequencies below the midrange when the speaker impedance begins to dip.
I threw out the comments about the pitch scale because I get a sense that a lot of audiophiles cannot relate a frequency given in Hz to real life. Middle C is well within the midrange and that's at 261 Hz. Human hearing is not linear.
I think a lot of the attraction that the CS2 offers based on the comments in this thread really stems from the dynamics that the CS2's offer. I find that the majority of audiophile speakers these days do a very poor job in the dynamics area and when one does find a speaker that offers dynamics the experience is eye opening. It is an experience much like the first time one hears a SET amp.
One thing that the CS2's are doing is showing the mainstream audiophile the wonders of a speaker that is not dynamically compressed. And that is a good thing.
I just find, much like Undertow, that there are plenty of speakers out there that can offer the lifelike dynamics. You just have to look in the right places.
Hey Dan, curious to know which product(s) he did that for.
BTW, that sort of action reflects on REG much more than on the product itself, whatever it may be, as it becomes irrelevant when considered in that light.
My own experience with Robert Greene is that he doesn't join this or that product's "fan club"; he maintains an objective position. For example, he really likes the performance of the Gradient 1.3 and the Harbeth monitor 40, but is also well aware of each speaker's limitations and I'm sure would acknowledge them if the subject came up.
Duke, good info and worth keeping in one's back pocket. IMO what makes for integrity is not that you blindly repeat the same thing for ever, but that you are open to new info and can recognize good with bad and acknowledge both, and pitch your tent where you believe it belongs.
Equally important is the strength of character to match words with actions; do as you say you will do, act based on your words and beliefs, and don't break promises unless your circumstances are genuinely dire.
People who don't do these things lose credibility and trust of others, and there are as many of them in audio as in any other avenue of life.
I have not followed the writings of REG particularly but will keep an eye out for the two differing opinions posted above. Although getting a little off the thread's subject it is useful to know.
Duke- Since REG is currently recommending your product, I'm sure you agree with him. Other than the M40, look at all the other products he's given GEAs. Have they been successful?
BTW- Join his forum and look at his listening room. If you want to sit on a book on a stool and listen in the nearfield, he's your guy.
Check the classifieds, wow.. Fad or Fact? This seems to be a pretty short lived model for most, I never heard them so I have no comments on that aspect of it.
I have never heard anything like it. I have never experienced anything like it.
First aproximate position, first DSP setting, first watt from the new ICE amp: and I just about felt like crying.
I am the 2nd owner, so speakers have some break in, but probably not complete. Also, I have a slightly used Stratos on the bottom, with some break-in hours remaining. Spanking new PS Audio Trio A-100 runs the top. I believe the Adcom GFP 750 running Passive gives the other components a fair shot, but my Onkyo CD P is marginal at best. I have an imperfect setup in a 15' x 15' apartment living room.
I have not had large ownership experience with speakers going 2, 5, or $10k, but I have spent a large portion of my life listening to amplified music. I have been guested to a wide variety of sound experiences, that were amazing at their particular place and time. While I can't claim the advanced "phile" level of critical listening and analysis that many here have achieved through sincere pursuit, I feel I have developed a strong sense of the selected end-total balance being delivered when I listen to a particular system.
Right now, the CS-2's give me a clarity, a sense of high fidelity that makes my heart jump. A large sense of open space, through which the sound just expands. Rather than feeling a big sound washing over me, I feel that the music is filling the space where I exist.
There are things that aren't quite right. It's not that the top end is harsh, or sterile, but it is perhaps a little hard and tight, not quite completely free and lively. But, hey, the top amp is in its first 40 hours of life.
The highest impact sweet spot is extremely small and precise. I move my head a matter of inches and feel it sinking in and out of the center of focus. But I am just blown away by what happens in that center spot.
And there is a beautiful sense of dispersion throughout the entire room. As I move my seat up and back and left and right, I notice my perspective shifting, but I do not feel I am losing anything. I am not thinking, this is spot is OK, but I really wish I could be sitting over there. I feel captivated and interested by the perspective at each spot, then a little surprised at the impact when I move back to tweeter crossing point.
Ultimately, I am going to want more richness, and probably more depth, or weight. I know in my mind the aural aspects that are lacking, though I'm not sure of the matching vocabualary. My current experience feels consistent with the new amp factor. As the consumer, I feel that some change should be expected or is required before I can sign off with real satisfaction. I am enthusiastically anticipating listening to the sound develop as the system breaks in. But I am getting real joy out of what it sounds like today, at week 1.
What else have I listened to recently; modern equiptment, I mean?
I have been rebuilding my 2-channel system from scratch during the last year. I was hoping that Revel Performa would give me what I needed. Though rich and realistic, that setup seemed to lack life, an ultimatate vitality. I thought it was probably lack of total extension, and I spent a lot of time trying to integrate sub woofers to fill out the 20 - 35 hz "excitement" range. But I still felt that there was a significant element missing. I felt just a little sad and left out.
With the CS2's I am smiling out of the box. I am enthusiastic about the current experience.
With what I hear now, I have some suspiscion that this system will fall short of perfection. Something about scale, or robustness, or immersion. Not power, but weight?
Too early to tell. But I just have to let out a big WOW! for what I AM experiencing.
Gradient evidence? Not sure how it would replace a 100 db sensitive system that goes down to 20 hz.. The specs on the gradient are 86 db which is not very comparable to 100 db efficiency, and the frequency range on the Gradient is only 45-20000Hz +/-2dB, 29Hz -6dB Impedance 4 ohm Sensitivity 86dB/2.83V/1m
This would mean very different amplifiers required(or not required), and supplement of subwoofer would still be needed it would seem if you want to compete with the range of this emerald speaker. Just curious, I guess not all open baffles are created equal.
Brian from what I've experienced you may be pleasantly surprised moving to an active tubed preamp with this setup. It will give you that richness and weight you speak of IMHO.
Brian, enjoyed reading your perspective. Your style of communication is near-poetic and the report was quite fresh and insightful. Thanks.
The resale numbers are actually a fairly common occurrence among new-on-market/new concept audiophile gear, esp one that has generated this type of buzz. There is not and never will be the one perfect component for everyone. I suspect many buy to try and expect miracles, then are let down due to overly stretched expectations. More of a psychological phenomenon really than a physical or auditory one.
What I have learned in the few years I have been rotating gear in and out of my system is that there is no 'absolute sound' and some things are just a matter of taste. Also many (most?) audiophiles enjoy simply trying these things out. Look at the feedback numbers of some of the posters in this thread alone, self included, and it is evident that many of us treat this Audiogon as a 'library' of sorts. You go in, borrow a book, read it through or get bored with it halfway, and trade it in for a different book with a different story. Does this diminish or raise either book? Of course not, although preferences do emerge with enough experience.
Brian, I may add this. If you don't have the weight you think you should with the CS 2s then you may look at upgrgrading elsewhere in the chain. It's not the speakers.
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