Emerald Physics CS-2, Opinions Please

the di pole gradients all play much lower than their specs and all exibit a quad-like mid. i would still stick with talons, but hey, thats just me.

Brian, I may add this. If you don't have the weight you think you should with the CS 2s then you may look at upgrgrading elsewhere in the chain. It's not the speakers.

Brian, enjoyed reading your perspective. Your style of communication is near-poetic and the report was quite fresh and insightful. Thanks.

The resale numbers are actually a fairly common occurrence among new-on-market/new concept audiophile gear, esp one that has generated this type of buzz. There is not and never will be the one perfect component for everyone. I suspect many buy to try and expect miracles, then are let down due to overly stretched expectations. More of a psychological phenomenon really than a physical or auditory one.

What I have learned in the few years I have been rotating gear in and out of my system is that there is no 'absolute sound' and some things are just a matter of taste. Also many (most?) audiophiles enjoy simply trying these things out. Look at the feedback numbers of some of the posters in this thread alone, self included, and it is evident that many of us treat this Audiogon as a 'library' of sorts. You go in, borrow a book, read it through or get bored with it halfway, and trade it in for a different book with a different story. Does this diminish or raise either book? Of course not, although preferences do emerge with enough experience.

Brian from what I've experienced you may be pleasantly surprised moving to an active tubed preamp with this setup. It will give you that richness and weight you speak of IMHO.

Enjoy

Gradient evidence? Not sure how it would replace a 100 db sensitive system that goes down to 20 hz.. The specs on the gradient are 86 db which is not very comparable to 100 db efficiency, and the frequency range on the Gradient is only
45-20000Hz +/-2dB, 29Hz -6dB
Impedance 4 ohm
Sensitivity 86dB/2.83V/1m

This would mean very different amplifiers required(or not required), and supplement of subwoofer would still be needed it would seem if you want to compete with the range of this emerald speaker. Just curious, I guess not all open baffles are created equal.

the gradient 'evidence' is an alternative.

I am a new CS-2 owner.

I have never heard anything like it.
I have never experienced anything like it.

First aproximate position, first DSP setting, first watt from the new ICE amp:
and I just about felt like crying.

I am the 2nd owner, so speakers have some break in, but probably not complete.
Also, I have a slightly used Stratos on the bottom, with some break-in hours remaining.
Spanking new PS Audio Trio A-100 runs the top.
I believe the Adcom GFP 750 running Passive gives the other components a fair shot,
but my Onkyo CD P is marginal at best.
I have an imperfect setup in a 15' x 15' apartment living room.

I have not had large ownership experience with speakers going 2, 5, or $10k,
but I have spent a large portion of my life listening to amplified music.
I have been guested to a wide variety of sound experiences,
that were amazing at their particular place and time.
While I can't claim the advanced "phile" level of critical listening and analysis that many here have achieved through sincere pursuit,
I feel I have developed a strong sense of the selected end-total balance being delivered
when I listen to a particular system.

Right now, the CS-2's give me a clarity, a sense of high fidelity that makes my heart jump.
A large sense of open space, through which the sound just expands.
Rather than feeling a big sound washing over me,
I feel that the music is filling the space where I exist.

There are things that aren't quite right.
It's not that the top end is harsh, or sterile,
but it is perhaps a little hard and tight, not quite completely free and lively.
But, hey, the top amp is in its first 40 hours of life.

The highest impact sweet spot is extremely small and precise.
I move my head a matter of inches and feel it sinking in and out of the center of focus.
But I am just blown away by what happens in that center spot.

And there is a beautiful sense of dispersion throughout the entire room.
As I move my seat up and back and left and right, I notice my perspective shifting,
but I do not feel I am losing anything. I am not thinking, this is spot is OK,
but I really wish I could be sitting over there. I feel captivated and interested by the perspective at each spot, then a little surprised at the impact when I move back to tweeter crossing point.

Ultimately, I am going to want more richness, and probably more depth, or weight.
I know in my mind the aural aspects that are lacking, though I'm not sure of the matching vocabualary. My current experience feels consistent with the new amp factor.
As the consumer, I feel that some change should be expected or is required before I can sign off with real satisfaction. I am enthusiastically anticipating listening to the sound develop as the system breaks in.
But I am getting real joy out of what it sounds like today, at week 1.

What else have I listened to recently; modern equiptment, I mean?

I have been rebuilding my 2-channel system from scratch during the last year.
I was hoping that Revel Performa would give me what I needed.
Though rich and realistic, that setup seemed to lack life, an ultimatate vitality.
I thought it was probably lack of total extension, and I spent a lot of time
trying to integrate sub woofers to fill out the 20 - 35 hz "excitement" range. But I still felt that there was a significant element missing. I felt just a little sad and left out.

With the CS2's I am smiling out of the box. I am enthusiastic about the current experience.

With what I hear now, I have some suspiscion that this system will fall short of perfection.
Something about scale, or robustness, or immersion. Not power, but weight?

Too early to tell. But I just have to let out a big WOW! for what I AM experiencing.

- Brian Taylor Chapel Hill, NC Age: 40s

For such a new speaker does seem like folks resell quickly but the economy could be responcible for some of the listings.

Check the classifieds, wow.. Fad or Fact? This seems to be a pretty short lived model for most, I never heard them so I have no comments on that aspect of it.

KcK- TacT 2.2X

Duke- Since REG is currently recommending your product, I'm
sure you agree with him. Other than the M40, look at all the other products he's given GEAs. Have they been successful?

BTW- Join his forum and look at his listening room. If you want to sit on a book on a stool and listen in the nearfield, he's your guy.

Duke, good info and worth keeping in one's back pocket. IMO what makes for integrity is not that you blindly repeat the same thing for ever, but that you are open to new info and can recognize good with bad and acknowledge both, and pitch your tent where you believe it belongs.

Equally important is the strength of character to match words with actions; do as you say you will do, act based on your words and beliefs, and don't break promises unless your circumstances are genuinely dire.

People who don't do these things lose credibility and trust of others, and there are as many of them in audio as in any other avenue of life.

I have not followed the writings of REG particularly but will keep an eye out for the two differing opinions posted above. Although getting a little off the thread's subject it is useful to know.

My own experience with Robert Greene is that he doesn't join this or that product's "fan club"; he maintains an objective position. For example, he really likes the performance of the Gradient 1.3 and the Harbeth monitor 40, but is also well aware of each speaker's limitations and I'm sure would acknowledge them if the subject came up.

Duke
dealer/manufacturer

Hey Dan, curious to know which product(s) he did that for.

BTW, that sort of action reflects on REG much more than on the product itself, whatever it may be, as it becomes irrelevant when considered in that light.

I wouldn't buy anything that REG gives a GEA. He has a history of giving products a GEA and later saying negative things about them on his forum.

Philefreak-I get your point. I do understand what you mean when speakers don't play to realistic levels and seem to just run out of gas. But in my experience, this usually happens at frequencies below the midrange when the speaker impedance begins to dip.

I threw out the comments about the pitch scale because I get a sense that a lot of audiophiles cannot relate a frequency given in Hz to real life. Middle C is well within the midrange and that's at 261 Hz. Human hearing is not linear.

I think a lot of the attraction that the CS2 offers based on the comments in this thread really stems from the dynamics that the CS2's offer. I find that the majority of audiophile speakers these days do a very poor job in the dynamics area and when one does find a speaker that offers dynamics the experience is eye opening. It is an experience much like the first time one hears a SET amp.

One thing that the CS2's are doing is showing the mainstream audiophile the wonders of a speaker that is not dynamically compressed. And that is a good thing.

I just find, much like Undertow, that there are plenty of speakers out there that can offer the lifelike dynamics. You just have to look in the right places.

I never said a SET amp couldn't do sub 1000Hz well. I was trying to say that I've never found a speaker that could do it correctly even though the SET amp was doing it's job perfectly well(like you said better than most other amps) I know what SETs are capable of. I beleive that power kills an any amp, tube or solid state. This is my opinion and only that. So, high power advocates please start another thread. That said all my favorite SET amps are 45, PX 4,and 2A3 output tubes. All are under 5 watts. So, It's unrelistic, and I've tried, to expect a 5 watt amp or under to run two drivers with a passive crossover to realistic levels. Realistic being 85/90 db without any strain what so ever plus, real bass and weight in the 30Hz to 1000Hz region. I know it can be done but, for goodness sakes. Look at the bass horn you'd have to have. I know and understand that a lot of you look at the CS 2 as cheating to acheive the results I'm getting or that they are capable of. I used to be one to not want any digital involvement at all or as little involvement with anything as far as that goes. Simpler was better. I just got a real digital source a couple of years ago. I've had cd players, just never took them serious. I can relate. Heck, I even got mad at tubes once and swore I'd never listen to tubes again! LOL! But, the magic (SETs) kept after me constantly as I was listening to other P/P tube designs and solid state amps. They could drive the dickens out of speakers! I could never get as involved in the music. I kept telling myself that this is accurate! So, when your talking 2 to 4 watts per channel you better have some serious speakers. After hearing the CS 2s everything just fell into place and since I've had them (CS 2) I've not bothered to upgrade anything and that's saying something for this old, never satisfied audiophile as myself!

Philefreak

While, I'm a SET advocate, I agree completely that sticking a 3 W amp on even a 100 dB speaker may not always yield the best results. This depends somewhat on the speaker,amp, room combination.

However, I do disagree about your comment that SET amps having problems below 1000 Hz. I realize the 1000 Hz number comes from the crossover point of the CS2 so it was a number that was thrown out in discussion.

The modern pitch standard for music is 440 Hz, which is A4 (the A note above middle C) and the 49th key on a piano. This is right in the middle of the piano and hardly in the bass region nor difficult for a SET amp to reproduce. The normal frequency range for the average human voice in normal conversation is about 80 Hz to 1100 Hz. Obviously, talented individuals can go much higher or lower. However, the normal vocal range is below 1000 Hz. One traditional strength of SET amps is their presentation of human voice. A soprano is expected to cover from C4 (261.626 Hz) to C6 (1046.50 Hz). So saying SETs can't handle music below 1000 Hz is a bit off. Now, getting below 40-60 Hz becomes tricky. Certainly getting to 20 Hz is downright difficult without a gigantic bass horn.

A 500 Hz lower cutoff for a compression driver is a pretty severe requirement on both the driver and the horn/waveguide if you want the driver to cover 500 Hz to 20 kHz. 800 Hz is a more reasonable and achievable goal. There are compression drivers rated down to 500 Hz and go up to 20 kHz (usually a larger 2" driver). But, you do want some head room (say 1/2 octave) below the crossover point. 500 Hz is pretty hard to do and it is debatable whether there are any advantages. At that point, going to a three-way design may be a better option.

Philefreak,
There is no doubt you need fairly efficient, and well designed bass drivers in a cabinet capable of air movement to get the magic of S.E.T. bass down as far as 10 hz. Some of the old' horns and klipsch with low excursion, not low tuned cabinets like most klipsch heritage series will not get you sub atomic bass, however I have heard 20 watt S.E.T do it on the right speaker, and totally kill 1000 watt subwoofers even, and the integration was so good that you laugh at using all the extra amps in the end..

I have done it all different ways, and found doing it right really requires one tube mono per channel, and you can get it all with some care and matching.. This is not always conventional or cheap however, so these Emerald physics can fill that void for those not blessed to use these options with full S.E.T power, and you can always force more low end response using DSP's and equalization to correct things in the design of the speaker or your room, win win, but takes more equimpment and more power switches to turn on and off!

I agree as well John. But, that said to get that 1000Hz down from the SET (IMHO) always required a horn bass. Which was big as a refrigerator and not very practical. Plus, the fact that a two way design with a passive crossover will suck up some watts. That's why anybody who have owned Altecs, older Klipsch, etc. found that they needed more power that they would have thought. I do wish the CS 2 would crossover at a lower point,say, 500Hz. Clayton's new reference he is designing will have a lower crossover I'm told. So, that will get some of that lower Hz magic from the SET amp. I would like to hear what you can build that would play the full range from the SET amp and have no compression, full resolution, and linear. I know the SET amp can do this and agree with you that it's the speaker needs to be up to it. I have no doubt that it can be done (by you or others) but, at what price tag? BTW, guys I'm not a speaker builder, designer. I'm just someone who has played with a lot of speakers trying to get the best out of a SET amp.I think we're on the same page but, just getting to the end result in a different manner.

Johnk, Totally agree with you... My opinion S.E.T. is totally wasted running a Tweeter alone with a fraction of a watt.. Way too much money, and capable amplification for such a task. The best Deepest beyond subwoofer type bass, mid-bass punch and magical mids I ever heard where driven by pure Low power S.E.T thru a Full range speaker, no bi-wire, no bi-amping.

Almost too much to bear, eh Todd? Dont forget Kck ( happy CS-2 owner!)

Thanks for affirming your thoughts on the CS-2. Im very happy, but with an eye on Claytons new Mid priced DCX due out next month or so...but honestly, even if that were not in the picture.Id be perfectly happy with my sound.

George,

Great job with your set up. Knowing you have ( and have had ) a few nice set ups over the years..The Cs-2's are so very impressive indeed. 38 tubes!! WOW! Nice! I recounted in my own set up and tabbed closer to 23 tubes.....good tube amps do make a nice difference from some other nice SS amps Ive tried. I bet the Atma's and Bella's are excellent together. Happy listening ;-)

Gmood1 and Macrojack

Wonderful of you to say so...thanks for posting your thoughts...I do hope the OP will be able to try these out before too long.

[Because you free up your SET to do only 1000 hz up really lets you hear what a SET is all about]. I disagree philefreak a SET can produce wonderful mid-bass-bass etc if loudspeakers are up to it and Ive built - heard many that are. You enjoy your system and thats the point but the above maybe right for you but not for me. I want a SET to run all and it can.

Well, I couldn't stand by anymore. The CS 2s are a godsend for me as they work very well with my SET amps on the treble. I've owned more speakers than I care to mention. Forgotten more than most people have a chance to hear.Ranging from $2000.00 to $20,000.00 a pair and the CS 2s are as good as any of them. Because you free up your SET to do only 1000 hz up really lets you hear what a SET is all about. The EQ doesn't bother me cause it's about the sound that I'm about. They can be forward or relaxed depending on your adjustments of the gain. You can even change it per your mood or music. My system is so dailed in now it's scary live sound. Some don't like a live, upfront sound so, you would not want to choose a SET amp for the top end.Boy, I like it though. Nice to get 98 db if you want it with no compression from a 4Watt SET on the top. Enjoy Kehut and Zybar! I sure am!

This was one of my concerns (the other is the AD-DA conversion, which I still need to run some tests on, but suffice to say at this point that I do not notice digital nasties. At all.)

I have tried very hard to pick out a coherence issue. Listening to various kinds of music at various volumes, unfamiliar as well as the numbingly familiar, I cannot say there is anything going on in the crossover or in the fabric of the music as it is handed off between lower and upper. It is important to note that you should work at the gain in the crossover, even if your amps are of like gain. I have not tried two identical amps so can't say there, but likely that will be ok with the factory settings.

I alluded to the benefits of two amps earlier. The gain adjustability is part of this flexibility for me... on some recordings which are voiced hot, I can drop the upper gain perhaps 1/10 or 2/10 of a dB, and things are more listenable. Perhaps the purists will barf all over this technique... I'm not a purist. As I said before, I know what I like and I like a system that lets me tailor the sound within reason.

I use Single driver speakers and love them, but I must admit the CS2s are just as coherent as my SDs. I do not hear any coherency problems. You really should hear them set up properly before passing judgement.

So far they are the only speakers with full bass I've heard recently that I could live with. If it's not TL or open baffle bass ..I'm really not interested.

The open baffle concept for the bass is wonderful but I'm wondering how the compression driver mates to the bass. There is probably some loss of coherency here. It's very hard to beat the coherency of a single driver like an electrostat or a double mouth back loaded horn. CS-2 is a two way speaker.

I would buy the Emerald Physics CS-2 sight unseen just because of who said what about them and because I have been hearing about open baffle speakers for a couple of years now. The idea makes sense to me and this particular attempt at the design concept has been roundly applauded.

Besides that, Underwood Wally is the consummate entrepreneur. You can bet he knows what he is doing in buying a monopoly on these speakers.

Swampwalker, this page may give you and tvad some idea of insinuation and related etiquette:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/16/rs.phrases.to.avoid/index.html

If you are "too old to be a digital native", then you are surely old enough to remember when people in public had manners. And no, my meaning was not "agree to disagree". (People have a hard time with being corrected nowadays and look for alternative endings as a result; your suggesting this is an example).

My meaning simply was: "that's bad behavior and stupid to boot". Too bad I had to explain it. Now I will let it rest, but will understand if you must have the last word. I may re-join this thread to discuss the speaker, but will not address this topic again. There's only so much one can do or say to get the message across.

Kck- You may call it "threadcrapping" (new term to me but I am way too old to be a digital native); I imagine Tvad calls it healthy skepticism seasoned with a soupcon of cynicism. I don't think any insult was intended, but then again, neither of us is a direct party to the exchange. If peacemaking w/o apologizing is the same as agreeing to disagree, then I'm all for it. In fact I'm all for peacemaking in any form. This is not that serious an issue. For me at least, its like having a beer with folks of similar bent; friendly "arguments" discussions, whatever.
As our friend warrenh would say; peace.

Tvad,

If you are in the Boston area you can hear the CS2's at my place.

George

I have tried a few different amps (both tubes and solid state) on the CS2's and while they have sounded good to excellent, I will say that your amps better have a low noise floor, especially tube amps.

While you don't need a lot of watts, at 100db (which I am honestly not sure how accurate that measurement is - I have a 96db pair of speakers and they seemed to play as loud or louder with the same setup), you do want to feed the CS2's as high quality amplification as possible.

The best combination I have found amp wise probably isn't the most practical, but for my tastes it is the cat's meow!

Atma-Sphere M-60's on the tweeter and Bella Extreme 100's run in pentode mode on the woofers. This four tube mono block configuration uses 38 tubes in total and I don't even want to think about my electricity bill. :-(

While I won't say the CS2's are the best speaker I have heard or owned, they are very good and hopefully they will be more than the flavor of the month.

George

Nice pictures on your system pics. They look a bit lumpy back there but I guess that's the way it is. Mye stands or Sound Anchors (if available) would greatly benefit here.

IMO, they are no more or less critical than other high end speakers. I've used Conventional Class AB, ICE and tube amps to drive them. Ive also tried a few different IC's and speaker cables now...All the changes are readily apparent to my ears.

The DCX will allow you to change gain very easily from the front panel of the Behr. This makes them flexible enough to use with differing amps. In that way, you could consider them somewhat forgiving and flexible.

Taking into account that the Behr is a stock unit and not a high dollar component..You still need to put quality components in the amplification and front end as it will matter. Some guys have asked whether it matters what NOS tubes you use in upstream equipment as it seems that the DCX would be a limiting factor..BUT, it does make a difference..as said..these changes are easily heard.

What makes them more forgiving is their hi efficiency at 100 dB, thus you can use a wider range of amplification to drive them.

Are the CS-2's critical or somewhat forgiving of the amplification that is fed to them?

What I find amazing with the CS-2's..Is that this is the very first speaker of many Ive owned that I listen to and DONT find myself wishing for a bit more of this or that..With one speaker..I may have liked the mids, but wished for more bass..another, liked the bass, but the highs were just to forward and bright..etc.. I liked the vertical imaging with one...but wanted more lateral imaging in addition... had room interactions that were horrible and were tough to correct..etc...

I listen and still find myself captivated. I am actually listening to spot the weakness ( of the transducers..and not the recording, which is easily and immed. recognized) or critically listening for the faults..The balance, tonal honesty, and uncompressed dynamics are spooky at times. I find that when Im done listening for the day...Im a happy smiling camper, and thankful I have such a nice sounding system!

EP has more in common with Zu than being in Utah and being my two fave speaker brands to date... they both operated with a limited dealer network. Zu started with direct sales and still do those, but have added the 'listening post' concept. Perhaps the EP model is not that different but is still evolving.

Swampwalker, fine about the usual bs thing, except I really fail to see the point of it other than bad behavior. In most other forums which have moderators involved (I mean posting in addition to policing) this is called threadcrapping and is at least regarded as poor etiquette and probably more like a no-no. It is harmless... until it is done to you, that is. Put yourself in the shoes of the OP (of any serious question-based thread, not just this one) when your question becomes a mudslinging contest, veering so far off course so as to completely lose the original point. Not so amusing any more, is it? What is so difficult about according people common courtesy? My response was simply fighting fire with fire and I make no apologies. My statement you quoted was an acknowledgement, similar to saying "I punched you because you punched first. Now let's both get back on track". It was said with peacemaking in mind but not an apology. I'm sure you got that.

Tvad, sorry you can't get a demo. Walter has a point about the 'serious buyer' thing, and he told me the same thing. Even though he is a bicycle ride away for me, I went ahead and ordered the speakers without audition at his place, because as I noted, I had heard them already. Perhaps a way to audition will make itself available to you before too long.

Kck

I re-read my post to Tvad above and realize it may come off as a trifle aggressive.

You got that right. Agressive being the operative adjective; trifle being the understatement of the week. Chill out, my friend. I saw the thread up until then as the standard cyber bs session. I am intrigued, but also a bit put off by the commentary about difficulty in set up due to DSP programming and the need for 4 channels of amplification. I have dealt with Wally before and he is a real pro (which is one my highest compliments)! However, from what I am hearing, this is a speaker that might be pretty difficult to properly "demo" via the one dealer, internet sales business model. Too bad, I'd like to hear them.

Paul - Yes, there's a lot of conceptual kinship between what Clayton is doing and what I'm doing. We're both shooting for room-friendly speakers with controlled radiation patterns using prosound drivers, for much the same reasons.

As far as passive crossover complexity, my belief is that it's not the parts count but the load presented to the amplifier that makes the most difference. Usually but not always, complex crossovers present a more difficult load than the drivers alone would. I use high parts-count crossovers but they present a smoother load than either of my drivers would even with no crossover at all.

Tvad, the USA dealer for Emerald Physics is Underwood Hi-Fi.

Duke

Hey Shadorne wait till the Origen housed 8 channel digital crossover/music server with optional touch screen display is released. It should eliminate the preamp,dac and DSP when it is complete.

Underwood HiFi is the lone dealer as far as I know.
This is a recent change and its reasons are unknown to me but few "ex" dealers might still have a demo pair on display.

Duke mentioned Druids. I might as well say here that before the CS2, I owned Definitions, and before that, Druids. Kehut bought my Druids when I got the Defs. I bought the CS2 after hearing them at his place. And the world turns.

Re Zu speakers, you will not hear anything bad about them from me. I am still a fan of their philosophy, design and products. But the Druid is not a realistic match for the CS2; it is, frankly, outpunched, despite being a delightful speaker in its own right, and one of a handful I would pick to be my 'deserted island' speaker. The Defs have some strengths the CS2 may be a little behind in. But that is a far more even match, and guess who finally won in my house. Note the price differential BTW, which I do admit was part of the decision. But I lost nothing of significance due to this decision, and gained quite a bit.

I re-read my post to Tvad above and realize it may come off as a trifle aggressive. It was written in frustration, but not because the CS2 is being picked on... that baby can fight a great fight for itself. It is about this whole audio"phile" thing, where some find it incumbent upon themselves to cast aspersions on product they haven't even heard. No doubt there is some agenda there, but I can't figure it out.

Having been around these forums for several years, I have had my fair share of gear pass through my hands. Nearly all of it has been fairly good to very good. About the only thing I would trash is some of the products put out by AV123, and that was a few years ago; I haven't heard their more recent lineup. So guess what? I don't talk about it! Is that so hard?

So back to the CS2. Is it the second coming? Unlikely. Even Clayton is working on an improvement, a.k.a. CS1. Is it a surprisingly competent speaker that releases the average audiophile (eg, folks like myself) from some of the constraints of this wallet-busting hobby? You bet your sweet patootie. I now have well under $10K in my whole system and wouldn't be embarrassed to demo it to anyone. Its bass is realistic and live-sounding, its midrange is competent, and treble is unfettered. Before anyone thinks calling the midrange merely 'competent' is damning it with faint praise, know that to me competent is another way of saying 'as good as it should be'.

What do the parts cost? Who gives a damn? Are you buying parts or a product that makes sound? Did you read my post about Pierre? Or maybe you want to know if the designer is ripping people off and perhaps you want to show it should have a market price of, say, $1K. Fine. If you want to build and sell a competitive speaker for that, go ahead. If the market thinks it sounds as good or better, then you will be rich(er) and poor old Clayton may have to start living out of a refrigerator box. But for some reason I don't see that happening.

From Duke you heard that he used to be a dealer but now isn't, yet admires the speaker and is still cordial with Clayton. That says something for both Duke and Clayton. BTW, when Duke was a dealer and made some positive posts about the CS2, I read those and they helped me decide to give them a try. It was also the audition at kehut's, and last but not least the incredible conviction I heard in Walter's words when he began talking to me about them. I am among the more cynical people you will meet (not particularly proud of it), but Walter melted my stone heart that day.

OP and tvad, may I suggest you give Walter (underwoodwally) a call? He will tell you what you need to know; his knowledge on this speaker in particular and audio in general is encyclopedic. He may be able to set up a demo for you.

tvad: you really should contact Walter. It is his job to explain, set up demos and sell. If Clayton did all those things he wouldn't have time to design and build, and even if he did he then wouldn't need Walter. However, on the occasions (AFTER purchasing) that I've needed to talk to Clayton he has been very reachable. I'm not saying he's avoiding you; I have no idea. Just that if you use the established channels, you should get faster results.

These are not active speakers - they are speakers that use an active crossover.

Whatever - but you are really splitting hairs.

To me, active speakers - putting the crossover and amps INSIDE the speaker to ensure that it gets the worst affects of vibration possible - is and was a compromise based on convenience, not sound quality.

I understand. There is still a huge anti-active speaker attitude amongst audiophiles. It is their loss.

Paul-I never for a moment thought you were insinuating. I was just offering since you asked.

My parting commennts.

I do agree with all of the CS2 advocates here that the CS2 are not dynamically compressed. It is unfortunate that a lot of speakers these days are dynamically compressed.

My main point in my original post was that there are a whole class of speakers out there (many decades old) that have the same characteristics as the CS2s and it is worth taking a listen. Unfortunately, most of these speakers are not in the mainstream audiophile consciousness at least in this country or thought to be too old to be any good. A little education goes a long way.

Paul-your comments about your friend Duke's design is interesting. In my original post, I mentioned the old Western Electric 'wide range' speakers. I did not mentioned that they weren't actually that great. They had a variety of problems. This led to the famous Shearer horn, a two way speaker with a multicelluar horn on top and a folded bass horn driven by a dynamic cone driver. BTW-a waveguide is just another form of horn.

These are not active speakers - they are speakers that use an active crossover.

To me, active speakers - putting the crossover and amps INSIDE the speaker to ensure that it gets the worst affects of vibration possible - is and was a compromise based on convenience, not sound quality.

In my experience, *simple* passive crossovers are Ok and can be a great solution. Complex passive xovers, however, steal far too much of the signal to be tolerable.

Rchau,

For the record, I was not insinuating that you made it up. I just found your dealer's reaction quite surprising given that, at the very least, these are simply very good speakers. I would say that the reactions I have seen/heard (dozens) have been probably 95+% positive - most very positive indeed.

As for them not being 'revolutionary' - so what? With speakers, the devil's in the details. And, frankly, they are rather innovative. The magic seems to be due to the combination of very complete frequency response, correct dispersion/power response by the ingenious coupling of open-baffle and a waveguide (the guide takes over where the bass drivers are beaming) (power response is THE critical area neglected by almost all conventional designs), and the complete time/phase alignment offered by the DSP. The result is a speaker that honestly seems to have no dynamic compression whatsoever, has accurate timber, and portrays a very realistic soundstage.
[A lot in common with Duke's designs, incidentally, which also get around the power response problem by coupling a woofer to a similarly-sized waveguide. Duke, if I'm screwing that up please correct me!]

There is no such thing as a perfect speaker, and there are probably better speakers in certain ways, but these things did drop my jaw at RMAF last year and yes, I did finally order a pair.

Interesting. I have not heard these...so no comments on the sound.

The CS2 system is a stereo, bi-amplified design requiring a high and low frequency range amplifier for each channel......Passive crossover networks in conventional speaker inflict far more damage to the signal.

Little by little the word is getting out about the benefits of eliminating passive crossovers from speakers and using separate amps for treble/mids and bass. Another convert to active speakers! It is great to see speaker manufacturers that embrace technology and progress instead of devoting the largest portio of their efforts at simply making better looking "furniture".