Emerald Physics CS-2, Opinions Please

Some random and not-so-random observations:

Every six months or so in high end audio there's another power cord, speaker, amplifier, digital source, (you name it) that's got the hot buzz among audiophiles. Within a year (or less), the latest hot-buzz item is seen for sale in the classifieds as owners move on to the next hot-buzz product."

Probably true, and for every 'hot buzz' product there's a guy who hasn't heard them who says they can't be much good for this reason alone. Fascinating indeed.

The manufacturers and seven layers of middle men should be ashamed of themselves.
We actually used physics to get where we wanted to go.
I don't care what the components are made of.

Agree; these are cogent and perceptive observations that tend to observe the world for what it is, not what some externally imposed 'ideal' says it should be.

The CS2's try very hard to cheat the laws of physics

These are not laws created by man or beast. They are natural laws and as such cannot be cheated. (Worked around, perhaps). Otherwise they would not be called laws. EP never stated they were trying to cheat anything, least of all YOU.

I do not own a pair of CS2's but my friend is a dealer

And this fact, being a dealer, makes him somehow all things in one: Golden Ears, supremely intelligent, and so on? Last I checked it was ridiculously easy to become "a dealer". Heck, even ** I ** was offered a dealer deal once (I passed). There are several poorly represented brands out there that will sign on any warm body to be a dealer. What have they got to lose? The dealer buys inventory and may even make a sale or two a year. Now, if you said SUCCESSFUL dealer along the lines of a Kevin Deal or, um, let's see, UnderwoodWally, who just happens to be the biggest single-person operation in the audio world, and who has marched out on a limb and said in writing, and says so every day: "The Emerald Physics CS-2 sounds more like live music than any under $30k speaker that I have ever heard." Walter's been kicking around this game for way longer, quantity AND quality-wise, than anyone I've corresponded with. Oh yes, he sold me my pair of CS2s. As for the 'one dealer' argument, what does this have to do with how they sound? If it centers around the possibility that the dealer and mfg are somehow linked, note there were several dealers until a few weeks ago but their franchise with EP was terminated. I believe the reason was that few of them understood this speaker, certainly none as well as Walter did.

Look, I’ve never heard the Emerald speakers, so like you my observations are based on what I’ve read.

Well, THAT certainly renders everything you say credible.

Not bad, but so easy to copy and get these off the shelf parts and build an open baffle like this that it would cost anybody very little time or money..

So why doesn't somebody DO it? Last I checked it was still a free market. If someone can do better for less then it follows that they will, assuming the target is already doing well, which EP is.

As to the cost of parts, etc, here is a post I made on AA over a year ago. The whole thread is a good read:
http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=general&n=468114&highlight=pierre+kkc&r=&session=

I guess we need to tell the guy who bought the latest Picasso for $xx million that he only bought about $5 worth of paint and canvas and got horribly ripped off.

I was going to stay out of this thread as it rarely makes sense to get into a pissing contest when the other guy has nothing to piss with, but the constant jabbing just to put someone or something down "just because", even though the weak pisser has never experienced the product, got a little too much to take. I own a pair of CS2s. I have owned, in the past 5 years, not one but two pairs of speakers that now retail over $10k. I don't miss them one bit.

The issues about multiple amps, cables, the physics and cheating thereof, the parts cost, are all smokescreens. I was a little daunted by the dual-amp thing. What I find is that it has been a sort of release, in that I can buy an amp for the bottom end that is good in that regard, and likewise for the top. How many times have you read users agitating about great treble or midrange but weak bass, etc? (eg tube amps). Or a great bass (many SS amps) but grainy or etched treble? These problems have now become non-issues. I recently bought an ICE-powered amp for the bass that has been noted for a 'whitish' upper region and I thought the treble was a bit etched, but does a fantastic job in the bass. Great, no problem. Like low-powered Class A or tubes for their mids and highs? No more worries about the bass!

Long post, I will end it now and await the spray.

Duke mentioned Druids. I might as well say here that before the CS2, I owned Definitions, and before that, Druids. Kehut bought my Druids when I got the Defs. I bought the CS2 after hearing them at his place. And the world turns.

Re Zu speakers, you will not hear anything bad about them from me. I am still a fan of their philosophy, design and products. But the Druid is not a realistic match for the CS2; it is, frankly, outpunched, despite being a delightful speaker in its own right, and one of a handful I would pick to be my 'deserted island' speaker. The Defs have some strengths the CS2 may be a little behind in. But that is a far more even match, and guess who finally won in my house. Note the price differential BTW, which I do admit was part of the decision. But I lost nothing of significance due to this decision, and gained quite a bit.

I re-read my post to Tvad above and realize it may come off as a trifle aggressive. It was written in frustration, but not because the CS2 is being picked on... that baby can fight a great fight for itself. It is about this whole audio"phile" thing, where some find it incumbent upon themselves to cast aspersions on product they haven't even heard. No doubt there is some agenda there, but I can't figure it out.

Having been around these forums for several years, I have had my fair share of gear pass through my hands. Nearly all of it has been fairly good to very good. About the only thing I would trash is some of the products put out by AV123, and that was a few years ago; I haven't heard their more recent lineup. So guess what? I don't talk about it! Is that so hard?

So back to the CS2. Is it the second coming? Unlikely. Even Clayton is working on an improvement, a.k.a. CS1. Is it a surprisingly competent speaker that releases the average audiophile (eg, folks like myself) from some of the constraints of this wallet-busting hobby? You bet your sweet patootie. I now have well under $10K in my whole system and wouldn't be embarrassed to demo it to anyone. Its bass is realistic and live-sounding, its midrange is competent, and treble is unfettered. Before anyone thinks calling the midrange merely 'competent' is damning it with faint praise, know that to me competent is another way of saying 'as good as it should be'.

What do the parts cost? Who gives a damn? Are you buying parts or a product that makes sound? Did you read my post about Pierre? Or maybe you want to know if the designer is ripping people off and perhaps you want to show it should have a market price of, say, $1K. Fine. If you want to build and sell a competitive speaker for that, go ahead. If the market thinks it sounds as good or better, then you will be rich(er) and poor old Clayton may have to start living out of a refrigerator box. But for some reason I don't see that happening.

From Duke you heard that he used to be a dealer but now isn't, yet admires the speaker and is still cordial with Clayton. That says something for both Duke and Clayton. BTW, when Duke was a dealer and made some positive posts about the CS2, I read those and they helped me decide to give them a try. It was also the audition at kehut's, and last but not least the incredible conviction I heard in Walter's words when he began talking to me about them. I am among the more cynical people you will meet (not particularly proud of it), but Walter melted my stone heart that day.

OP and tvad, may I suggest you give Walter (underwoodwally) a call? He will tell you what you need to know; his knowledge on this speaker in particular and audio in general is encyclopedic. He may be able to set up a demo for you.

tvad: you really should contact Walter. It is his job to explain, set up demos and sell. If Clayton did all those things he wouldn't have time to design and build, and even if he did he then wouldn't need Walter. However, on the occasions (AFTER purchasing) that I've needed to talk to Clayton he has been very reachable. I'm not saying he's avoiding you; I have no idea. Just that if you use the established channels, you should get faster results.

Tvad: There are many ways of persuading. I am not interested in any of them, as I have confidence in my own ears and as the saying goes about art, "I know what I like".

One method is that of insinuation, of using irrelevant examples or allusions to cast doubt upon the object under discussion. Why talk about the six-moth hot buzz in your very first response to this thread if you did not mean to imply be association that EPs also fall into this category?

Yes I noticed you are careful enough to cover your tracks by not directly criticizing the sound, and even being magnanimous enough to tell the OP to try/buy them. Very big of you, except that he seems to have a mind of his own and it appears doubtful he will or will not do something based on what you did or didn't say. And if you were to actually READ what he asked, in a few sentences he made the point twice:

those of you that have them what you think?
If you have had them for a couple of months are you still happy? any regrets?

Here are a few examples of what he did NOT say: if you have read assorted ramblings about them and would like to add your own doody to the pile, please waste cyberink and everyone's time. Or: if you would like to recommend other speakers because you haven't heard these, please spew names which everyone knew but many have forgotten. Or: If you think the parts are worth the cost of the speaker and the designer's art and science are worth little to nothing, please post your 7th-grade financial analysis. Or: If you believe having seventeen dealers makes a speaker sound better, please let me have the names of all those speakers and dealers so I can waste my time and money buying them. Or: As I can't read the classifieds for myself, please let me know how many EP speakers are for sale so I can wonder why these people are selling them.

No. Re-read what he asked. As free as this country is, you have no place in this thread unless you will admit you simply intend to distract. Go hear them, properly set up as the designer intended and took great pains to explain in the manual, then come back and favor us with your real-life observations. Until then, STFU.

EP has more in common with Zu than being in Utah and being my two fave speaker brands to date... they both operated with a limited dealer network. Zu started with direct sales and still do those, but have added the 'listening post' concept. Perhaps the EP model is not that different but is still evolving.

Swampwalker, fine about the usual bs thing, except I really fail to see the point of it other than bad behavior. In most other forums which have moderators involved (I mean posting in addition to policing) this is called threadcrapping and is at least regarded as poor etiquette and probably more like a no-no. It is harmless... until it is done to you, that is. Put yourself in the shoes of the OP (of any serious question-based thread, not just this one) when your question becomes a mudslinging contest, veering so far off course so as to completely lose the original point. Not so amusing any more, is it? What is so difficult about according people common courtesy? My response was simply fighting fire with fire and I make no apologies. My statement you quoted was an acknowledgement, similar to saying "I punched you because you punched first. Now let's both get back on track". It was said with peacemaking in mind but not an apology. I'm sure you got that.

Tvad, sorry you can't get a demo. Walter has a point about the 'serious buyer' thing, and he told me the same thing. Even though he is a bicycle ride away for me, I went ahead and ordered the speakers without audition at his place, because as I noted, I had heard them already. Perhaps a way to audition will make itself available to you before too long.

Swampwalker, this page may give you and tvad some idea of insinuation and related etiquette:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/LIVING/wayoflife/05/16/rs.phrases.to.avoid/index.html

If you are "too old to be a digital native", then you are surely old enough to remember when people in public had manners. And no, my meaning was not "agree to disagree". (People have a hard time with being corrected nowadays and look for alternative endings as a result; your suggesting this is an example).

My meaning simply was: "that's bad behavior and stupid to boot". Too bad I had to explain it. Now I will let it rest, but will understand if you must have the last word. I may re-join this thread to discuss the speaker, but will not address this topic again. There's only so much one can do or say to get the message across.

This was one of my concerns (the other is the AD-DA conversion, which I still need to run some tests on, but suffice to say at this point that I do not notice digital nasties. At all.)

I have tried very hard to pick out a coherence issue. Listening to various kinds of music at various volumes, unfamiliar as well as the numbingly familiar, I cannot say there is anything going on in the crossover or in the fabric of the music as it is handed off between lower and upper. It is important to note that you should work at the gain in the crossover, even if your amps are of like gain. I have not tried two identical amps so can't say there, but likely that will be ok with the factory settings.

I alluded to the benefits of two amps earlier. The gain adjustability is part of this flexibility for me... on some recordings which are voiced hot, I can drop the upper gain perhaps 1/10 or 2/10 of a dB, and things are more listenable. Perhaps the purists will barf all over this technique... I'm not a purist. As I said before, I know what I like and I like a system that lets me tailor the sound within reason.

Hey Dan, curious to know which product(s) he did that for.

BTW, that sort of action reflects on REG much more than on the product itself, whatever it may be, as it becomes irrelevant when considered in that light.

Duke, good info and worth keeping in one's back pocket. IMO what makes for integrity is not that you blindly repeat the same thing for ever, but that you are open to new info and can recognize good with bad and acknowledge both, and pitch your tent where you believe it belongs.

Equally important is the strength of character to match words with actions; do as you say you will do, act based on your words and beliefs, and don't break promises unless your circumstances are genuinely dire.

People who don't do these things lose credibility and trust of others, and there are as many of them in audio as in any other avenue of life.

I have not followed the writings of REG particularly but will keep an eye out for the two differing opinions posted above. Although getting a little off the thread's subject it is useful to know.

Brian, enjoyed reading your perspective. Your style of communication is near-poetic and the report was quite fresh and insightful. Thanks.

The resale numbers are actually a fairly common occurrence among new-on-market/new concept audiophile gear, esp one that has generated this type of buzz. There is not and never will be the one perfect component for everyone. I suspect many buy to try and expect miracles, then are let down due to overly stretched expectations. More of a psychological phenomenon really than a physical or auditory one.

What I have learned in the few years I have been rotating gear in and out of my system is that there is no 'absolute sound' and some things are just a matter of taste. Also many (most?) audiophiles enjoy simply trying these things out. Look at the feedback numbers of some of the posters in this thread alone, self included, and it is evident that many of us treat this Audiogon as a 'library' of sorts. You go in, borrow a book, read it through or get bored with it halfway, and trade it in for a different book with a different story. Does this diminish or raise either book? Of course not, although preferences do emerge with enough experience.