Elrog 300B vs Takatsuki 300B tubes
A point to keep in mind regarding the AC voltage measurements some of you have been making: Although a digital multimeter may provide 4 digits or more of resolution (i.e., to tenths of a volt when reading voltages in the vicinity of 120), its readings are by no means necessarily accurate to anything remotely close to tenths of a volt. For example, the B&K 2703C, which lists for $46 and is produced by a very reputable company, provides 0.1 volt resolution on the scale which would be used to measure AC power, but its specified accuracy on that scale translates to +/- 2.9 volts when measuring 120VAC! Which reminds me, I've got to order myself a good Fluke DMM. My old Triplett analog multimeter just won't cut it when it comes to accuracy :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Al, Thank you for your continued contribution to this thread. I do not have a Data Sheet for the Takatsuki 300B tube, but I can share the test results for one of my matched pairs if that would be helpful. For example, the plate volts Ep vdc test result was 300 for each tube; DC plate current lp mAdc was 73 and 73.1 for each tube; AC plate current lp mAac was 6 for each tube, Bias volts G1 vdc was 60 for each tube; Grid #1 leakage uA was 0.29 and 0.27 for each tube; Tube gain Mu was 3.6 for each tube; Plate resistance RP ohms was 0.6K for each tube. Do these numbers help? Is there another number I should look for? Thanks again. |
07-08-15: TmmvinylGiven that the meter displays four digits on that scale (for example, 120.1 volts), the accuracy of readings that are in the immediate vicinity of 120VAC would therefore be: +/- ((0.012 x 120) + (10 x 0.1)) = +/- 2.44 volts For your worst case reading of 123.1 the accuracy would be +/- 2.48 volts So the actual voltage when you measured 123.1 could have been anywhere from 120.6 to 125.6 volts. This information comes from the Takatsuki Denki website for the Takatsuki 300B tube.These numbers, representing maximum ratings, are identical to those which appear in the 1939 datasheet I cited earlier for the original Western Electric 300B. My impression is that the 1930's WE 300Bs are among the most robust 300Bs ever produced. Kevin Hayes designed the VAC Renaissance amps based on the characteristics of those tubes. And as noted earlier those amps drive the 300Bs extremely hard, yet tube life is MANY thousands of hours for tubes which are truly WE-spec compliant. I can share the test results for one of my matched pairs if that would be helpful.... The plate volts Ep vdc test result was 300 for each tube; DC plate current lp mAdc was 73 and 73.1 for each tube; AC plate current lp mAac was 6 for each tube, Bias volts G1 vdc was 60 for each tube; Grid #1 leakage uA was 0.29 and 0.27 for each tube; Tube gain Mu was 3.6 for each tube; Plate resistance RP ohms was 0.6K for each tube.I don't see any concerns in those numbers, and the numbers for which corresponding figures appear in the 1939 WE datasheet are roughly similar. Although these are results of tests that were performed at a plate voltage of 300, and we don't know what the results might have been if the test would have been performed at 390 volts (474 - 84), which George measured across the tube in Joe's Franks. Also, the plate dissipation in the Franks which can be calculated for the Takatsuki from George's measurements is 32.0 watts (rather than the 33W that was indicated), and the plate current can be calculated as 82 ma. Those are reasonable figures, although not on the gentle side of the spectrum. Although of course George measured a line voltage of 119.4, and I have no particular feel for how much those numbers might increase if your line voltage actually approaches the upper limit of your measurement +/- the meter inaccuracy. Finally, we have to consider that we can't say with 100% certainty that your particular tubes, or other Takatsuki 300Bs for that matter, conform to Takatsuki's published maximum ratings, especially given that the indicated tests were performed at a plate voltage considerably less than the voltage the tubes see in the Franks, and much less than the maximum ratings. So the bottom line seems to be that there are considerable grounds for encouragement, but there are no guarantees. Apart, perhaps, from the warranty :-) Best regards, -- Al |
Slight correction to my slight correction :-) When I said in the long post prior to the correction: So the actual voltage when you measured 123.1 could have been anywhere from 120.6 to 125.6 volts.I should have said: So the actual voltage when you measured 123.3 could have been anywhere from 120.8 to 125.8 volts.Best regards, -- Al |
Thank you Al. Your feedback has been reassuring. I have an electrician coming to my home within the next few days to inspect the electrical installation to and in my listening room. Hopefully, he can get a more accurate reading on my voltage fluctuations. The voltages I measured today were comparable to the voltages I measured yesterday; today's highest reading remained at 123.3. I may decide to revisit the idea of utilizing power regeneration in my system. The Pure Power 3000+ is near the top of my list because it has considerably more operating headroom than the comparably priced PS Audio P10 Power Plant. This thread has been an education for me. Individuals like you make this Forum a pleasure to visit. Thanks again. |
Only thing I want to point out is that the PS Audio units have linear power supplies which is great. I have a NO (or at least very limited) SMPS acceptance policy. I can ALWAYS hear them doing bad things to other gear. Some are much less offensive when well designed but overall I will take a linear supply over a noisy high speed switching supply any day. I have even compared class D amps with SMPS's vs class D with Linear and you guessed it, the class D amp with the Linear supply was far superior. Perform the following test: While listening to a really well recorded piece of music, plug something in with a SMPS near your audio gear. Most likely the sound will take on a harder colder non-musical signature. The further the outlet powering the device with the SMPS the better. I have experienced this countless times with few exceptions. The Berning Resonant supplies are very very good, the iFi power supplies are much better than most but most others are horrendous. I literally unplug my PS3 (which is not part of my stereo but rather is used as a blue ray player) because it completely destroys my sound (even when it is off). I would never ever buy an expensive piece of audio gear with a SMPS (Resonant Power Supplies are a different animal) unless I could try it in my system with a full money back guarantee. Wierd example of chopping-power (power supplies) messing up the sound: several years ago I had the excellent sounding Diverter HR in conjunction with my former MSB Power Dac and Meitner Bidat Plus. Everthing sounded wonderful but then one eve while listening I noticed the magic was gone. I went through everything in the chain and found no problem. Through the process of elimination only one change came to mind. I had decreased the brightness of the display on the Diverter. I can hear the scoffers already but the moment I took it back up to full brightness my system was singing again. I talked to Josh the brilliant designer of that awesome piece of gear and he mentioned that the way he reduced the brightness was to employ switching principals. Just sharing my experiences with someone who may find them beneficial. |
I am in no way affiliated with PS Audio but I am truely impressed with the P-10 power regenerator in my system. It does not lower dynamics, shows you incoming power numbers, power regenerated to your system numbers, total harmonic distortion removed and percentage of the capacity of the machine your system is using as well as a surge protector. Linear power supply. I've A/B'd straight to the wall and the PS unit seems to win. I think that when you have tubes that run this close to the top, this machine or one like it is necessary. |
I have read this thread with some interest as one of my amps is a Reimyo PAT 777 (best 300B amp I have ever heard) which I have tubed with the awesome and incredibly rare AVVT C37 300BSL (I have a spare pair) tubes. I wonder if anyone has any real world experience as to how the Elrogs or the Takatsuki compare to this tube. If I have to purchase to compare I will but I'd like to gain any useful insights before tasking my bank account :) |
Audiofun, The Reimyo PAT 777 is an incredible amplifier. I currently own Takatsuki and Elrog 300B tubes and in the past owned the AVVT tube, so I can not offer you a direct comparison. I am planning a long term comparison between the Takatsuki and the Elrog in my Coincident Frankensteins but am holding off doing so until my power issues are sorted out. Although I have never heard the Reimyo in my system, on those occasions when I had the opportunity to hear it in a familiar system, it was always with NOS Western Electric 300B tubes. I recall that the Reimyo was designed around the WE 300B. A comparison between NOS WE, Elrog, Takatsuki and the AVVT sounds like an enjoyable way to spend a few weeks. |
Timmvinyl: Hi and thanks for the compliment on the amp :) I am listening to it as I type this. I have never had the privilege of hearing your amp but I know it has a large following :) You are correct in that the Reimyo was designed around the WE300B but I personally think that some of these newer tubes may have surpassed the WE tubes. Can't wait t read your take on the Takatsuki's vs the Elrogs. NOS W.E. 300B's (not the reissues) have gone for as much as $6K. I will not be spending $6k on 2 tubes LOL!!! |
I received my Elrog replacement tubes and I'm listening to them now. It's funny how much I enjoyed the EML XLS while waiting for the Elrogs. The Elrogs raise the holistic/presence factor from the EML's already high standard. Both are wonderfully dynamic and energetic with lively involvement. The Elrogs are more fluid, organic and provide just a bit more sense of 3 dimensional space, you are there factor. Beautiful natural tone! As I've said before, it's a move from excellent to the sublime. Time and use will determine reliability and longevity merit. It nails the sound quality portion. George of tubesusa.com has been simply terrific during this period wih his service and support. Thank You. Charles, |
It is unfortunate if the Elrogs turn out to be unreliable and the problem is never fully cured. I would certainly only buy this tube from a very reliable source, such as George Lenz of TubesUSA. The vintage Western Electrics as well as the more modern ones that were made up through the 1990s were extremely reliable and very long lived. I know a of a lot of people who have used them for MANY years without a failure or the tubes growing weak (the only problem with the newer tubes that I saw myself had to do with poor gluing of the tube to the base (easily repaired). It is quite unfortunate that production has not resumed on this tube. A local dealer, who has an exclusive custom builder building his house brand of electronics, insists that the older Western Electric 300Bs with "engraved base" are the best 300Bs. He actually puts them into working amps (not kept as museum pieces), but, the price of these tubes are really prohibitively high for all but the craziest and wealthiest fans of the tube. He even has a 59A amp that uses a tube that is similar to the 300B (a 252) that is unbelievably rare--the amp is fantastic sounding. |
Tmmvinyl, I certainly agree that one should get more than 6 mo out of a new set of tubes, especially at these prices. In fact, the longevity (or lack thereof) is worse than it appears, because for at least 2 of the 6 months I had very little listening time. Its not likely these tubes had 250 hours on them. Preliminarily, I don't think the amp was damaged. I replaced the tube with my spare Psvane T, and the amp seemed to be ok. Elrog addressed the issue for Charles, providing him with tubes suitable for the Frankensteins. I expect the same customer service, or I am not going to be pleased. The tubes deliver superb sonics, but I'm not spending 2K a year for tubes. I asked Matthais in this forum on 7/7/15 if, since Elrog knew there was a problem with their tubes in the Frankensteins, they would allow me to return the tubes for ones that were a suitable match for the amps. He chose not to respond to my question. Too bad. I guess we will have to see what Elrog intends to do. Matthais, any comments? |
George Lenz sure stood by me and other customers concerning the Elrog 300b. Bill did you get yours via True Audiophile? Well I hope who ever your vendor, they treat you appropriately. As you correctly acknowledge this is a superb sounding tube. I'm rooting for Elrog to get this tube right with the replacements such as mine. Larry, the Western Electric 300b reissues were very disappointing in my amplifier. EML XLS and Takatsuki were far superior sounding. Charles, Charles, |
My Elrog 211 tubes had substantially less than 75 total hours when they failed in one of my Coincident Dragon mono amplifiers. The Dragons are push pull amplifiers with each mono amplifier using two 211 tubes, one 300B as a driver tube and one 6EM7 as an input tube. Not only was I out the two Elrog 211 tubes, but since the Dragons require a matched quad set of 211 tubes, I was effectively out four tubes, not to mention the damage done to the amplifier itself as well as to the other tubes in the amplifier. I have since read reports by a number of users of Elrog's 845 tube also reporting reliability problems. |
Charles, I initiated contact with the dealer (and alerted them to this thread) back when your tube failed and your dialogue with Matthais was initiated. I contacted the vendor immediately after my tube failed and I received a response within about 5 minutes. I am confident they will stand behind me on their end. However, I do want to ensure that I receive replacements that are suitable for the Frankenstein amps. As I have said previously, the audiophile community needs to be supportive of companies like Elrog who are taking risks trying to enable manufacture of tubes that meet or exceed the standards of the vacuum state glory days. That support involves some risk on our part, too. But In all fairness to the AG community, I think folks who might be potential customers need to be aware of the Elrog failure rate and observe Elrog's response to the problem. Premature tube failure is bad enough, but Tmm's experience with substantial damage to his Dragons is another. If my amp had (or is) damaged, or if Elrog fails to provide a suitable replacement, you can be sure I will not be pleased. |
Almost all of the newer tube makers have had problems, at least initially, with quality control and reliability. In time, if they are any good at it, these problems abate (e.g., EML had early problems, but, they appear to be reliable now. In the various amps I've heard, the Western Electric reissues were okay sounding, but, I generally preferred the sound of the EMLs and Krons to the Western Electics. But, I did mention them because they demonstrate that it is possible for someone to make a very reliable and long-lived tube of this type. |
Larry, Our listening impressions of W.E. vs EML are similar, the W.E. reissue version is considerably more expensive despite its poorer sound quality. So it seems that durability is their best attribute. Last week my EML XLS pair were found to test identically to the results of 3 years ago when I got them new. They've had very frequent use in that 3 year period as well, so it appears they're likely to have commendable longevity. Larry you're correct, EML had problems with their initial offerings but were able to sort out and fix the problem. Now it's Elrog's turn to do the same. I'm cheering for their success. I'd be a shame for a tube that sounds this good to fail. Charles, |
Unfortunately, the prudent thing is probably to wait until the dust settles and Elrog solves the problem. I am rather impressed that Elrog produced a pair to match Charles' amp. Charles, did Elrog make a pair to your specs? Or did they cull their supply to identify the right pair. As I understand it, there is a certain variability in actual specs for all tubes - a typical bell-shaped curve. |
Tmm, Thanks. As I stated earler, once the tube failed I replaced it with one of my stand by Psvanes, and the amp appeared to function normally. Gsm, I am patiently waiting for a response from Matthais or another representative from Elrog in this forum. When I originally ordered the tubes, I told the vendor the tubes were to be used in a Coincident Frankenstein application, and when Charles' tube failed, I alerted both my dealer and Matthais of my concern, so I did everything possible on my part. As I feared (see my post of 7/7/15 above), the tube failed at 2 days post warranty. |
I've been following this thread with great interest since springtime. I bought my first 300b amplifier last fall, a Cary 300sei. I am getting ready to swap out the output tubes. I had intended to buy the Takatsuki, before I began reading about the Elrogs. But I see from the discussion that there is some question about whether the Elrogs are the right match for the Cary. (And if I am interpreting the technical discussion correctly, perhaps there is some question about the Takats also?) Any Cary owners using these tubes? I would love to hear your thoughts. |
Hello, Yes, there are some challenges on the ER300B... This tube is really new. The first series where build in October 2014. This are the first (300B like)tubes using thoriated tungsten as cathode/filament. To fit the 1.2A/5V filament specifications a VERY thin cathode wire is required. That makes thinks difficult. An oxide coated filament is much more simple and much easier to handle but the sound is the same as the russian or chinese derivates...so we dicided, to build 300B like RF tubes using thoriated tungsten as filaments because the sound is MUCH better. @brownsfan We will replace the failing tubes, doesn't matter they where fail 2days, 2month or 2years post warranty. Matthias |
Hi Charles1dad: thanks for your advice. I presume that you are happy with your replacement tubes, after the long ordeal? I've been swinging this way and that. I was excited about the Takats for so long, then got caught up in the hype about the Elrogs. And one thing to which I always give great weight: warranties. They say a lot about a craftsman's confidence. The Takats have two years. The Elrog's short warranty, combined with these recent tube failures, give me an ill feeling. So Matthias: By your recent post, is Elrog now offering unlimited warranty? |
Hi Rfprice, No, we do not offer unlimited warranty! Our warranty covers 2 years on materials and manufacturing and a half year for the emission. It is a matter of grace for a new product. It's very annoying if a tube fails, but it can happen. It is completely normal with such a new product. There are covert and late visible problems...And we can not by hundrets of different amplifiers to test the tubes... But we can replace failed tubes by obligingness ;-) Btw, 90% of all delivered tubes are working well. Matthias |
