I suspect a few of you might find this post of interest regarding “noise” in cables and audio gear. I am on the Board of Directors of Verdigris Technologies, if any interested it is an AI company for managing electricity (www.verdigris.co). We got our start by recognizing that anything plugged into an electrical circuit, not only draws power, but also emits a rather unique signature back into the electrical circuit. The challenge is that as multiple electrical appliances are plugged into a single circuit, the signatures are all jumbled together. We developed unique technology that enables us to disaggregate all those jumbled signals to identify exactly which products are plugged into a circuit, and even identify early warning signs of failure, and we have patents regarding this technology. My point in all this is that it is clear that anything plugged into a circuit carries these multiple signatures from whatever is plugged into the circuit into any audio equipment plugged into the same circuit, and it is logical that at some level the garbage noise is is audible. So I think that it matters a lot how electrical power is managed, and that includes the cables used at each step of the audio food chain. Many of us don’t have the ability to have a unique circuit for just our audiophile gear, which is probably the best alternative, and so need to rely on products like regenerators and cables that reject noise to attempt to clean up and eliminate these unwanted garbage signals.
I’m pleased to see that someone is looking into this area. Being "old school" I’ve always looked sideways at claims made by Monster and everyone that piled on afterwards. "Oh please, You’ll claim anything to part folks with their cash" That original attitude of mine has given way over the years to at least listening, if not always agreeing, with claims made. When I saw dual RCA’s hit the market at $100 or more I cringed....but they were, at least, made of better stuff than the Radio Shack equivalents. Still, seeing 6’ HDMI jumpers lister for $6,999.00 does little to make the point that they’re doing anything useful for the end buyer..... That’s simple greed (It has to be....Right?’) I found an AVS-2000 voltage stabilizer in the electronics trailer at our town landfill a few months back. ....thought I was going to give myself a hernia...tightened the 2 screws that secure the variac wiper (the only problem) while I like the readouts (voltage makeup, currant draw and output voltage) I can’t really say I hear any diff with or without it, to be honest though I’m not running 4 bridged Levinson amps or anything close. All that said, I really enjoyed your original post and I think I learned something, which after all is the point of reading anything technical. Thanks again, Kevin
Well said. Yours is the first I have seen of anyone objectively analyzing this down to the level of being able to detect devices on a circuit. Makes total sense.
Probably many different things are going on all at once. AC current starts to flow, but being audio never in a continuous steady flow, so it hits any connection or device there is an impedance shift and a wave reflects back. That is just one. Then the device whether it be brushes on a stator like your air conditioner pumps or diode switching in a component it probably emits another different wave going back into the line.
All kinds of things like this. As you say it is one thing to detect and prevent a failure, quite another to listen and analyze in order to determine which of these various noise sources does what in terms of sound quality. Then maybe we find out one sort of noise flattens the sound stage. Just guessing here, a total for instance, but if we knew that then maybe we could design something tailored or focused to do that.
To think of just one possible application.
Great stuff. If you knew the stuff some of us are using, I could hook you up with someone you could really do some great work with. Seriously.
Thanks for your questions. We currently work with large commercial businesses, data centers, etc. where things like pumps, compressors, and large equipment do fail, and usually at the most inopportune times. Imagine running a lab dependent on refrigeration and having the compressors fail, or a hotel where the air conditioner goes out on a 100 degree day. As a result, our current work is primarily at the kilowatt level, which would be much higher power than what we deal with in audio. So we do not try to detect things like rfi in circuits, because it is at such a low level that it becomes noise to our processes. But the point and principles are the same - in our early years we could determine when any kind of household electrical device (like an iphone) was plugged into an outlet - residential is just not a market for us at the present time. So there is no reason that our technology cannot be used for rfi, we would probably need to amplify it (just like our sound systems do) it is just not on our current product roadmap. What seems obvious to us from our processing of electrical signals, is that there is more going on in a circuit than just a one-way movement of electrons or analog signal. As in much of life, it is complicated. Anything plugged into that circuit emits an electronic signature into the circuit, and that noise is at a level easy to detect. So it seems reasonable that it can be heard, or smear sounds or mask them, or impact soundstage, or generate jitter - and for those of us trying to listen to music in the best way we can, at whatever level we can afford, that can make a difference in what we hear, and it would seem prudent to have some strategy to deal with it.
@cdnorris Thank you for sharing what your company has learned. Rejection or reduction of RFI and other forms of analog EMI seems to be the improvement that many audio products seen as "snake oil" can actually make in sound quality. The 'bits are bits' crowd doesn't seem to understand that that RFI from the analog domain can generate jitter in the digital domain.
Is it primarily back EMF you are analyzing? Or something else? It is easy to imagine how something like an electric motor could generate a signal that could be a sign of coming failure. Brushes on an armature for example might wear and arc and this could be detected on the AC line.
A lot of the noise we have is RFI. Or at least we think it is. I have done simple tests that would seem to indicate it is RFI.
If for example you turn off breakers going to circuits with appliances running and the sound improves (it does) that could be due to the sort of line noise your AI is designed to detect. But then if you also turn off breakers going to circuits with no appliances, no nothing even plugged in, and the sound also improves this cannot be due to back EMF or appliance noise. The only thing I can think of then is RFI. This does happen. I have tested it multiple times, including blind tests where the listener has no idea what is going on, they definitely hear the improvement. (It is not subtle!)
So curious to know if your work is so specialized it only detects the one and not the other, or can you differentiate? Because yours is the first to be analyzing like this (patent, duh). But at the same time I would like to think that at least some of the designers of conditioners are looking into this, if for no other reason than if you want to eliminate noise it usually helps to know where it is coming from. Because in general the more you know about what you are trying to do the better your chances of actually doing it. If they are studying anything like this, I sure don't recall ever hearing about it.
Millercarbon, thanks for your thoughtful response, and I think you get it and summarized my point quite well. At the present time we are focused on our commercial business, and I fear I am one of the only folks into audio at our company. Unfortunately, we have not had the time to look into cables and related audio issues, and I suspect we will not have the cycles to look into these issues any time soon.
We may run out of air, fuel, food or water, but we should never run out of kindness…seems like that is in very short supply, and that is a prerequisite for me to engage in a positive dialog with anyone, and I have neither the time nor inclination for any other sort of dialog. Perhaps that is my loss, but I wish you the best on whatever quest you are on.
Sorry to disappoint you, but our company does nothing with audio gear, nor with residential applications, so there must have been some other reason for this post...
At this point I am at a loss.. Then why did you post it?
Analytical on the fly cable data and instrument detection has been around a long long time. Even back to the oldest of analog days..
MC what in this post happened to catch your eye as NEW.
AI? A DMM and a 250.00 used 50kva scope.. There is nothing his software does a GOOD trained Tech wouldn’t pick up with a good scope and a DMM. Just leave the middle man software out of the loop..
You can still gather data and do summations and produce all kinds of usable data like, BIGGER is BETTER and Silver sure sound good with a splash of Tungsten.. :-)
SOAP testing has been around sense the invention of moving parts and oil. Spectro Oil Analysis Program..
I don’t need no PUTER, as my 2.5 year old grandson use to say.. :-)
My Point is Point to Point.. .OK.... No need to get all Digital on me.. Bigger :-)
Sorry cdnorris, it is clear from your post your company is AI focused on identifying and early warning of equipment failure by analyzing the noise these devices put onto the circuit. It is clear you have nothing to do with any audio products and are simply informing us your companies research has identified clear evidence of exactly what many such as myself have been saying for years.
Maybe because I have been saying it for years I am the one who gets it. An awful lot of us still are living in the dark ages where we thought wire is wire, and as long as the wire is thick enough and the voltage high enough all is well. All most certainly is not well.
Your research is fascinating. People here are always asking things like can my DAC be on the same circuit as my phono stage or amp? Your AI analysis of AC would seem to be capable of answering that question.
Have you tried using this to compare things like power cords or conditioners, to see if the effectiveness your AI measures correlates with the sound quality improvement we hear?
Well Mr Smarty pants Tony... READ what the OP said.. Honest YES, informative, NO.
Like I said I’d work on learning about his own product, and presenting himself as a little more knowledgeable about it.
EX; I sell ice cream, I don’t know what’s in it, but if you set it in the sun today, it will still be there tomorrow. Would you buy my ice cream, for body filler at the local body shop..:-)
or
We sell an all organic product that have several wonderful flavors. We specialize in very simple and time tested recipes. 100% ice cream... No fillers or non dairy related products added.
@cdnorris Thanks for a very interesting post. Please excuse the flood of suspicious, cynical, jaded, I-know-everything-already responses. Many of the people here simply cannot accept an honest opinion for what it is.
Sorry to disappoint you, but our company does nothing with audio gear, nor with residential applications, so there must have been some other reason for this post...
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