I agree with your thoughts on the AN Duke. Another option might be to use a high-pass filter like Vandersteen uses, and then roll the subs up to match the rolled off frequency and output of the main AN speakers. Of course you may accomplish the same thing more simply by moving them out from the wall but the high pass would (theoretically) reduce the work required by the main amplifier.
BTW, I would like to hear your swarm system some day. Adding a second Aerial sub was a huge benefit to the sound of my system, in particular by better controlling bass in my room. |
Duke,
I agree with what you say: "a delicious richness about them that really stood out from the crowd. One could easily get totally lost in the music listening to them. My impression was that they’d be totally non-fatiguing to listen to all day long."
The reason I’m interested in making a change is not because adding subs threw off the balance, it’s because I find the speakers to be a bit "sleepy." They simply don’t do anything wrong but they don’t generally grab me. My mind can easily wander when listening.
The reason I said I may never replace them is because I can listen for hours on end with absolutely no fatigue.
I’ve tried them with many different amps of different strengths and in an almost infinite number of positions within my room but the speakers simply are what they are. They sound best in the corners, set up exactly how Audio Note (and I assume Peter Snell) say to set them up. Driving them in this position with 2, 4, 8, 16, 20 or 250 watts doesn’t bring about the difference that I’m looking for.
But, in the end, I will not trade long-term listening enjoyment for excitement.
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mitch2,
I actually do use a high-pass filter between the preamp and the main amp. The main speakers are now down 3dB at 60Hz (9dB at 30Hz etc.). The device is passive and uses a small Audio Note UK capacitor. This takes a lot of strain off the main amplifier. 60Hz and below is largely covered by the subwoofer system.
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@exlibris Where did you find a good-sounding high pass filter made with high quality components, or did you make one yourself. I have looked at Vandersteen's M7-HP, which is made for their Model 7 series speakers and appears to be well-constructed, but it costs $2K/pair and rolls off from 100 Hz, which is higher than I want. https://www.vandersteen.com/categories/crossovers |
I had it made by my local technician. I was skeptical that it would sound good but it really worked out great.
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Exlibris wrote: "The reason I’m interested in making a change is not because adding subs threw off the balance, it’s because I find the speakers to be a bit "sleepy." You might try a rear-firing tweeter to add a little bit more top-end energy to the reverberant field. This could theoretically "wake up" the tonal balance a bit WITHOUT screwing up the first-arrival sound and therefore the imaging. The tweeter could actually sit on the floor behind the Audio Notes, facing upwards. You want to be sure the path lengths from the rear tweeters to your ears are at least a foot longer than the path lengths from the main tweeters to your ears, or else they could screw up the imaging. Probably just a first order crossover (series capacitor and maybe a level-adjusting series resistor),with the calculated F3 being fairly high. To avoid dropping the impedance curve very much, I suggest starting out with a high efficiency tweeter so that you need to add some series resistance to pad it down. Fostex comes to mind. I'm sure there would be some trial-and-error involved in sorting out the component value(s) for the highpass filter, but ten or fifteen bucks worth of basic capacitors and resistors would get you started, and then you could opt for the more expensive parts once you have the values sorted out. Duke |
Thanks Duke. I've been thinking of doing that, at your suggestion, and have been looking at the Townshend maximum supertweeters.
I'll add one thing...
Sometimes it's as if my system has even less jump after 2 or 3 hours of listening. I've often wondered if this a subjective thing or if it was something in my amplification chain. Reading a post on another forum, the poster said this could be caused by hot speaker voice coils. It's a drawback of a speaker being pushed beyond its natural efficiency for a long time. |
Most speakers can put me to sleep. A good set of horns will excite and delight. Enjoy ! MrD. |
Exlibris wrote: "Thanks Duke. I’ve been thinking of doing that, at your suggestion, and have been looking at the Townshend maximum supertweeters." I’d look primarily at adding some rear-firing energy from about 12 kHz to about 20 kHz... the Fostex FT17H is imo a fairly low-cost way of exploring this idea.
"Sometimes it’s as if my system has even less jump after 2 or 3 hours of listening. I’ve often wondered if this a subjective thing or if it was something in my amplification chain. Reading a post on another forum, the poster said this could be caused by hot speaker voice coils." That would be my guess. A 50-watt peak is like touching a 50-watt soldering iron to your woofer’s voice coil. It heats up instantly but cools down slowly. The voice coil’s resistance goes up with temperature, and the motor structure is the primary "heat sink" that the voice coil radiates into (the air inside the box is also heated). As the motor gets pretty hot there is a reduction of magnetic strength, which comes back once the magnet cools off. This is one of the downsides of going with drivers that have relatively low thermal capacity. Thermal compression is a big consideration in prosound, and imo it is relevant but under-appreciated in home audio. Floyd Toole told me of some of the rapid-onset thermal effects he observed during his tests, and said that this is an area which has not yet been adequately investigated. As a ballpark rule of thumb, thermal compression is typically about 1 dB at 10% of a driver’s rated AES power handling, and typically 3-4 dB at its AES rated power handling (which in turn is 1/2 its "music program" or "continuous" rating, and typically 1/4 of its "peak" rating.) This refers to the long-term compression effect once the voice coil and motor temperature have stabilized, so it takes a while set in. There are also the short-term effects that I spoke with Toole about, and my assumption is that there’s some correlation. Not surprisingly, prosound-type drivers tend to have negligible thermal compression at quite loud home audio levels because they have both high efficiency and high thermal capacity. The challenge is, beating prosound drivers into submission so that they don’t have any distracting colorations. That’s what I try to do, because imo they have enough inherent advantages that it’s worth the effort. Obviously most speaker designers feel otherwise! Duke |
@mrdecibel
A good set of horns will excite and delight. How about Klipschorns? How good are they? Can they be set up or modified (if necessary) to avoid thinness, honkyness, or other horn-related aberrations? Can I get the exciting dynamics and a rich tonality from an easy to drive horn speaker? |
Absolutely ! However, K horns need corners. The Lascala does not, and benefits from a pair of subs from 50 hz down. I have been a Klipsch Heritage fanatic for 50 years, and when I get done with a pair, none of the nasties are present. Just beautiful, realistic sounding, fun and involving performances, right in your listening space. |
@mrdecibel I could do corners, or not, so either
Klipschorn or LaScala are possible, and the room is big enough. What do you mean by; "when I get done with a pair, none of the nasties are present" Are you talking about making modifications you have learned over the years, or do you have a business to modify/improve Klipsch Heritage speakers? Pardon please if I have missed something earlier. |
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Big Tannoy - the legacy arden do 35hz - 30kHz and an easy 93db driving speaker.
But O93 should be cheaper and easier to pick up in the US (tannoys in UK relatively cheaper $7000 new for the Ardens) and I would have prob been keen on them and Audionote AN’s as alternative.
Think all 3 are ones to lose yourself in music with. |
Take a serious look into the Spatial Audio speakers. Their entry models have a coaxial compression driver (midwoofer functions as horn like Tannoys) with 93db sensitivity. Zero horn "honk." The nominal impedance of their Triode Master M3s/M4s is 12ohms.
I’ve heard some of the other speakers mentioned here, including the ANs and Spendors, and the performance of even the entry-level Spatials is on par. I was almost deterred by their pro-driver compliment but one must keep in mind they are custom spec’d by Spatial, not off-the-shelf units. They can produce high SPLs with just a few watts but are robust enough to power an auditorium.
I’m very particular about tonal balance, hence my being a fan of Spendor Classics. The Spatials produce a nearly identical midrange (a little better honestly), a bit more sparkle on the top end and superior decay. Never fatiguing. The bass is incredibly defined and better than anything else I’ve had in house. I have their smallest model in a rather large room and the bass impact/slam is still very good. Best thing about them is you can get all this performance for 1/2 the price of comparable ANs or Spendors. 60 day in-home trial. |
Mitch, a few things. Looking at your systems page ( very nice ) the Khorns would be too far apart from one another. The Lascalas would be my choice ( why I have the Lascalas as well ). Yes, I had a side business, and started damping horns ( and other areas of speakers / equipment ) 50 years ago. My ears recognized the " ringing " and resonances that was very apparent, and I used products such as mortite, clay, and then as time went on, Dynamat, and self adhesive roofing repair tapes, such as Peel and Seal and U Seal, available at Lowes and HD. Significant improvements in sq. I did not stop at horns, as I do the driver baskets of woofers, the magnet assemblies, and in the case of mid horns that are held with brackets at the rear of the horn, to the cabinets ( such as the Khorn and Lascala, as there are others ), these areas as well, as they vibrate and resonate with higher volume. I am a Klipsch Heritage fanboy, as I find the 5 original Heritage models designed by the one and only PWK himself, to be the best at their respective price points, yesterday, and still today. Many others feel the same, many others do not. I was in the audio business, in NY, for over 40 years, sold at stores, was a rep and did consulting. I owned a lot, and heard just about everything. I do not claim to have the best ears, nor be the most knowledgeable in sound system set up. Admittedly, there are many speakers that do some things very well. What I do want to say is, I discovered, a long time ago, a reproduction of musical playback, that has stood MY test of time, and has "easily " satisfied my listening desires, and pleasures, with every type of music available, compared to others. With tubes and solid state, with low power and high power, with analog and with digital, with music and movie soundtracks, it is here. Klipsch, as a company, keeps " the mans " dreams and designs going, after he is gone, and they are still selling, here and abroad. You are welcome to pm me, or keep this as an open discussion. Enjoy ! MrD. |
I assume I came on too strong....guns ablazin….. |
too strong? Nah, just too busy here.
I wish I would have tried this stuff years ago. It is tough to switch directions now that I have my speaker system pretty well dialed in for great sound, but they are inefficient and need lots of power to sound their best.
There is a 50 watt amp I would like to try but it wouldn't stand a chance with my speakers. The amps I have are 90+ percent of the way to nirvana but just falling short in one area. Since I already own the speakers, trying different amps until I find something better may still be the easiest direction for me. Problem is, I have tried several pretty good amps and the amps I own now are better than all of the others I have tried, and I don't want to spend a fortune trying high powered amps. One recent change I made is to try going DAC-direct, first with the Metrum Jade I recently purchased for a second system and then just this week with Metrum's flagship Adagio I purchased after hearing the Jade. The Adagio has been warming up for a couple of days and I will get to listen to my system without my preamp this weekend.
I was hoping to see some recommendations in this thread for relatively high sensitivity speakers (like 95dB +) that can be driven hard with 50 wpc and that display tonal density, strong dynamics, and a natural sound without added edginess, shrillness, honking, or other issues sometimes reported with horns and other really high efficiency speakers. I think there are a few of those types of speakers mentioned here that would be worth hearing, but I am not convinced Klipsch speakers meet all of those goals....although there is an interesting pair of Belle Klipsch speakers that were recently listed for sale. I need to go to show where I can hear some different high efficiency speakers. |
This is what I want, and have ( thanks to the genius of PWK ) : Very high efficiency; Very low distortion; Very broad dynamic range ; Controlled directivity; Extremely fast and nimble; Flat frequency response; Excellent and honest tonal balance; Very coherent, top to bottom, Natural sound of all instruments and voices; Lack of edginess, shrillness or honk ( when I, and some others, get done with them ); Very detailed, what goes in, comes out; Excellent presentation of image and space of the recording; Does not care of the genre of music playing, including soundtracks; Works with ANY amplifier; easy room set up; Not expensive; Allows the immersion of being in the audience of the actual recording; Always modifications, tweaks, updates, parts available, to take them to whatever level you want. Resulting in : Always wanting, and enjoying, listening to music, at any chosen volume level. BTW, you can easily use them for Karaoke night ( plug in a mic or guitar mixer ). I am sure I left some things out. Horns are the real deal, and yes, go listen to some, in a proper set up. No need to be a Klipsch, as there are others. Anyway.....enjoy your journey. MrD. |
I demoed the Cube Audio Nenuphar again yesterday and it’s a fantastic speaker. I’ve posted a few thoughts about it over on its own thread. If you’re looking for a Harbeth, Spendor, AN sound, this speakers might not be for you.
I also demoed the Odeon No. 28/3. It’s only 93dB efficient so it’s pretty easy to drive but probably not in the ’high efficiency’ category. Ive heard a number of every expensive horns and these are the only ones that have ever really impressed me. I listened at around 90dB for over an hour with absolutely no fatigue and I never noticed any of the typical horn drawbacks.
As one would expect, the dynamics were there in spades. What floored me, however, was the fact that this modest system was the most emotionally communicative system I’ve ever heard. The speakers are so musical. They convey all the emotion and intention of the musicians. They’re really soulful yet spacious and room energizing. I find those two qualities don’t always go together. They also have really nice shove, grunt, and testicular fortitude. I mostly listen to rock and lots of 70s rock and these do that wonderfully. But, they also convey so much emotion in singer-songwriter music and they keep everything sorted in complex post-rock stuff with orchestra.
The dealer and I loved both the Nenuphar and the Odeon and I suspect upon hearing both in that system many if not most listeners would choose the former -- they are really special.
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