Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

Nice work Marty , I look forward to your impressions of your new cables 

@williewonka Just completed my first prototypes of the Helix XLR and PC.

I have uploaded a couple pics up on my system page.

I used some older silver wire and stripped off the insulation.  Bought some cheap tubing off of Amazon and wrapped it with solid core 18awg wire (not even OFC).  Basic Neutrik connectors.  Just hooked it up and will let you know how it sounds.

For reference, I have the following:

1. Canare 4E6S wire with Xhadow XLRs

2. Viborg 5N OFC

Waiting on my OCC (partsconnexion) and CCC (Japan) stuff to build the next sets. Saving my AECO XLRs for these builds.  

I hooked up the VenHaus PC and really liked it.  Viborg plugs.

Quad 12awg = 9awg for L&N

dual 13awg Helix wrap = 10awg ground

Marty

@williewonka Just completed my first prototypes of the Helix XLR and PC.

I have uploaded a couple pics up on my system page.

I used some older silver wire and stripped off the insulation.  Bought some cheap tubing off of Amazon and wrapped it with solid core 18awg wire (not even OFC).  Basic Neutrik connectors.  Just hooked it up and will let you know how it sounds.

For reference, I have the following:

1. Canare 4E6S wire with Xhadow XLRs

2. Viborg 5N OFC

Waiting on my OCC (partsconnexion) and CCC (Japan) stuff to build the next sets. Saving my AECO XLRs for these builds.  

I hooked up the VenHaus PC and really liked it.  Viborg plugs.

Quad 12awg = 9awg for L&N

dual 13awg Helix wrap = 10awg ground

Marty

Thanks, Steve.

Best,

Chris

@massagevermont - I have used two different tubes on each of the interconenct cables - both having 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid Silver UP-OCC wire

• for the Double/Double interconnct with
  • 2 x 20 gauge bare solid silver UP-OCC signal wires
    • I used a 16 gauge tubing from Take Five Audio
  • and 2 x 18 gauge bare solid copper UP-OCC neutral wires
    • I used a 16 gauge tubing from Take Five Audio
• for the Double/Single interconnect with
  • 2 x 20 gauge bare solid silver UP-OCC signal wires
    • I used a 14 gauge tubing from Parts Connexion
  • and 1 x 16 gauge gauge solid UP-OCC copper wire with Teflon insulation

As best I can tell...

• there is no discernible difference between these two cables
• i.e. on MY system with my ears  😃

Regards - Steve

Hi Steve,

What size Teflon tubing did you use for the 20 gauge silver wire?

Thanks!

@mbolek This is great news that you are taking on the Two XLR Builds with wires very well known and the lesser known off wire.

You will be a pioneer for the CCC Wire Version and I eagerly await your thoughts being made known about this build. 

When I finally chose to maintain the PC CCC Wire as a Speaker Cable over the Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix Cable, it took a little longer to convince myself to continue with the CCC wire than it did for the interconnects, the interconnects  was decided on quite promptly and after a period of time in use and then reintroducing the OCC, the CCC was reinstated with an immediacy.

Maybe the Solid Core CCC needs a little time of usage before it finds it voice.

Unfortunately, I can't rush into such a practice as the System is to be put in to storage for a period of time during 2022, due to an upcoming re-construction on the home demanding lots of funding. 

@pindac, @williewonka 

I have ordered some of the CCC wire.   I'll plan on building two versions of the XLR Helix.

1. partsconnexion bare PC OCC

2. PC CCC

I have no idea how long it will take to get the CCC.  Should be able to build the OCC Helix next week.

Marty

@williewonka  Thank You for your assessment, and encouragement to continue with the PC Triple C Solid Wire.

It is satisfying to know that I have a Solid Wire, that will be quite useful for my Interconnects which are most likely to be XLR with Atlas Plugs.

If it is not myself to be first build a Helix Design Cable with this wire type, when eventually a build appears, it will become an alternative version and in keeping with the R&D carried out by others on some of the other Helix Versions already offering the positive user impression that caught my attention.

I will one day join the Club, and much of the footwork is done to get on board.  

@williewonka    Thx...

@mbolek  - here are the links to the wires I used for the interconects

For the Neutral wire:

https://www.partsconnexion.com/NEOTECH-71448.html

For the Signal Wires

ConneX Wire 20awg OCC5N Silver Wire Hook-up (partsconnexion.com)

Regards - Steve

@pindac - it would appear that the wire you have provided links to is of a comparable (if not higher) quality to the UP-OCC solid copper wire available from other vendors mentioned in this thread

The 0.9mm dia (19 gauge) would be ideal for the interconnects and the thicker gauge you mention would be better suited to Mains and Speaker cables

How much better than the other UP-OCC wires would it be?

• From what I have read/tanslated, I have no doubt that this wire will perform upto (and may marginally exceed)  the performance level of the UP-OCC wires.
• when you get to wires of this quality there would be very litte difference between them,
• so then it comes down to
  • personal poreference
  • cost - this wire appears to be reasonably priced
  • availability - are all required gauges available ?
  • delivery - how long doe it take to arrive ?
  • convenience 
    • ​​​​​​​​​​​​​​Other vendors, like Parts Connxion, are able to supply most (if not all) of the parts required for th Helix cables, so there is the convenience for one-stop-shopping

For me, this wire does not provide enough of a "technological advancement" to warrant the expense and effort of performing a comparison.between rwo wires that would probably offer very similar levels of performance.

For Interconencts - the UP-OCC 5N Solid Silver wire will/does provide significant improvement over this wire and UP-OCC Solid Copper

• the only thing that deters me from using UP-OCC Solid Silver for speaker cables is the expense
• but if anyone is pursuing "Audio Nirvana" then this is the wire to

So, If someone out there is looking for wire for a Helix Build, the the DUCC and Tripple C wires would make a very fine cable

Regards - Steve

The D.U.C.C Wire is produced by Mitsubishi and it is Mitsubishi Cables that I have that are terminated with Aeco Silver RCA Plugs.

The D.U.C.C Wire can be found used by Acrolink in various Cable Types, Audio Technica use it in a various Cable Types and as a blend of a wire with other wire types, Luxman produce a dedicated Phono Cable from the wire.

Mitsubishi produce a Speaker Cable that has a Solid Core Wire. This is the Wire I am looking to acquire to produce my own Cables, it is not as easily discovered for sale in a long length, as the PC Triple C is.

SAEC are the only Company I know using ePC Triple C in a Tonearm and this is selling for $13000.

After encouragement a friend who produced their own Tonearm Design has now used a PC Triple C Wire within the Tonearm, as a continuous Wire from the Cart',   I picked up on the deathly silence on my first demonstration a few weeks past and was of the comment that it was another incremental move for the betterment.

When the sheath is discovered that is extremely soft and supple, it will be a very worthwhile upgrade choice.      

@williewonka The Link is to the Solid 0.9mm PC CCC Wire I have acquired. 

The price is per metre in length, so this supplies two single wires at a common Interconnect Length.

This is the wire that has superseded my Mapleshade Clearview Double Helix that was used in my system for many years, and also a Speaker Cable that held its own at a Speaker Cable Bake Off where much more expensive cables were in the line up.

There is also a slightly thicker Solid Wire available from Acoustic Revive Speaker Cables.     

https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/en/special/order/confirm/audio9:10004950/2_1/lgk-link_top_search

Sorry.   Where do you source the 16awg wire?

Steve,

What type of wire is the 16awg UP OCC?

Thx.

@mbolek - re:

Also thinking about a hybrid version that uses Chris’ v-quad wire and then do a helix wrap

The Vquad wire has a lot of insulation - and its the insulaton that impacts clarity and details in all cables.

Whilst I was initially aprehensive about usnig silver wire for the signal wires due to fears of cost vs. performance - the improvements in performance with the solid silver wire was very noticeable - even before any break-in.

For interconencts - 5N Solid Silver UP-OCC bare wire is now my first choice and recommendation.

Regards - Steve

@pindac - where do you buy this wire?

I have only found both the wires you talk about listed as Mains bulk cables - which is much larger than required for interconencts.

Are you using DUCC for Interconnects?

0 if so, do you seperate strands to get a finer gauge?

Unfortunately the PM function does not allow links like the forums do, so you should post any links here

Regards - Steve

@williewonka The Speaker Cables being adopted by the other converts are Solid Core SAEC which I have learned has an increased gauge to my supply, which has a 0.9mm (19 awg) diameter Solid Core wire. 

I will PM later with a link attached for the Wire I use, that is easy to obtain, a couple of the stranded wire types has proven difficult to acquire.

If this wire is off interest, it will be worthwhile looking at D.U.C.C, as I am using this wire and CCC as standard assembly RCA Interconnects, the D.U.C.C offers a slight perception of adding a hint of richness when compared to PC Triple C, but has proved to be more more attractive that OCC interconnects, especially for the differences noticed to quietness and smearing.

I found D.U.C.C really stood out when used on my digital source.  

Hey Steve,

Thanks for the update. I was ready to pull the trigger on a copper build. Your comments may sway me toward the silver.

I’m planning an XLR version, assuming you would use two silver conductors for the signal wires and the 16awg for the Helix neutral.

Also thinking about a hybrid version that uses Chris’ v-quad wire and then do a helix wrap.

The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - Update!

The wire/RCA’s arrived today so I was able to construct an Interconnect cable with 2 x 20 gauge UP-OCC solid silver signal with a 1 x 16 guage UP-OCC solid copper with teflon insulation.

With just a few hours break-in it would appear that this cable is a real winner.

As suspected the magic is in the Silver UP-OCC solid wire indisde Teflon tubes and not so much the neutral conductor.

I spent an hour going through my audition tracks plus a few other select tracks and tthe results were just as stunning as the the cables with a neutral made from 2 x 18 gauge Solid copper in Teflon tube.

The 1 x 16 gaue with Teflon insulation neutral is much easier to wind and is cheaper.

The image is breathakingly large and very focused - the clarity and details are superb.

The warmth and body I spoke of in my comments a couple of posts ago I believe are due to the improved focus of artist/instrument placement within the image is allowing improved isolation and hence much imporved clarity

• it is as though the individual artists/instruments are no longer "overlapping" each other
• hope that makes sense.

Regards - Steve

@pindac - can you provide a link to this wire so I can take a look at it please - thanks

The only thinng I have found to date is the Furutech CCC bulk power cable, which is stranded.

• Stranded wire does not perofrm to the same level as solid wire.
• Os there a solid CCC witr avaolable - if yes - please provide a ink

When you say that others a prefering the CCC to UP-OCC are they comparing soolid wire to solid wire?

Mant Thanks - Steve

@bigslacker RE: 

I'm curious why you switched to smaller wires in the silver cable build?

$COST was the main reason.

• I figured that if this combination provided noticeable improvements I could alway try the heavier gauge in the next cable if I thought it was required
• but the results are so good that I have decided to try the 2 x 20 gauge Silver with a 1 x 16 guage UP-OCC copper with Teflon insulatoin to see if the double helix Air is really required

The 2 x 20 gauge Silver compared to the 2 x 18 gauge copper had more "body" and sounded more complete and warmer, with a nicer image and faster dynamics.

I'm not sure the 2 x18 gauge solid silver would be worth the additoinal cost, but you could always try it and report back

I'll post observations on my second cable here.

Regards - Steve

@williewonka 

Hey Steve, I'm curious why you switched to smaller wires in the silver cable build? Was it just the associated cost or other, more technical, factors?

Thanks,

Ron

I have quite a stock of PC Triple C Wire to produce my Helix Cables.

I am behind with this as a task in hand as with many other tasks to be completed.

The Dual Mono Balanced Pre is still to start, as well as the conversion of the Power Amp's to Balanced, so it is not too much of a pressure at present to achieve the Cable Build. 

I have been talking about my impressions with PC Triple C and loaning my assembled Interconnect Cables produced with this wire to other HiFi enthusiast friends, many of whom are sure that the OCC wire already in use, is not going to be improved upon.

There are, as a result of my interventions and passed on word of mouth reports,  new reports becoming regularly seen on the usage of the wire, which is slowly bringing to fruition a host of individuals starting to replace their OCC wire with the PC Triple C wire Interconnects. 

It would be great if a respected authority on the Helix Design could adopt the PC Triple C wire and produce a build with this different wire design.

Not too long ago, I would have claimed to have had a gut feeling that something that could impress was achievable, as that was my own singular experience, with the recent activity, I am feeling very confident there will be something on offer that has not been experienced, and will create a positive response.     

@mbolek - Whilst I have not had the opportunity to try Zavfino cables for myelf I have read their product literature in depth regarding their application of:

• UP-OCC wire
• advaned insulations
• advanced cable geometry techniques

However, the latest Helix bare wire in Teflon Tubes adaption has proven exceptional

• this adaption took the Helix to another level of performance
• and I now use 5N solid UP-OCC Silver in Telfon tube for the signal wires in Interconnects

I think you will be surprised (in a good way) by the Helix, even when compared to very good cables like Zavfino.

As for.....

I’ll be hard pressed to build anything that looks......

Agreed! - Zavfino do build a very nice looking cable!

• but you can use one of the many expanding sleeves out there to "pretty-up" the Helix cables
• It iwll not impact performance
• I don’t use it because it is a complexity I do not need to unravel each time when trying out new things on a cable

For me, this journey has not been a "competition" between the Helix and other brands

My goal was to:

• develop a cable that delivered great sounding music
• for a modest price
• that ordinary people with modest resources could build for themselves

it all stared with a an idea for a different approach to cable design and some old LAN cables

• along the way many other DIYers contributed significantly to getting the Helix Cables to where they are today
• My thanks to you all 😊

So if you do try the Helix cables - post your "cable recipe" and findings here

• it’s always good to hear observations from others 👍

Regards - Steve

@williewonka -Thanks for your feedback. Lots of different parameters that can affect the sound. For me, I rely on good conductors, low mass connectors (or no connectors), and secure connections. Rather be listening to music than pondering all the variables....

I like building cables, not as extensively as you, but it’s a nice hobby.

Helix build with the bare UP-OCC is in my near future. Although, after listening to some Zavfino stuff, I’m really impressed. At their price points, I’ll be hard pressed to build anything that looks and performs as well.

Appreciate all your attention to the details and real world feedback.

Marty

@mbolek - you have touched on a subject that I am yet to observe, despite having tried it many times with a variety of cables - e.g. power, interconnect and speaker cables.

I do not doubt the observations of others - i.e. a cable sounds better in a specific direction.

• is it due to the metal of the wire?
• is it due to the insulation?
• is it due to the geometry of the cable?
• is it due to the connectors of the cable?
• is it due to the socket in the component?
  • sockets/plugs is an area that can cause lots of issues
  • I would not be surprised if this is the cause of this phenom

Since I have never observed this phenom I no longer account for it in my builds and so far I have not been disappointed.

But you do make a valid point - should the wire be reversed for the neutral?

• With the exception of fully balanced symmetrical designed amps and balanced power distribution systems
  • Helix cables are not suited to these
  • and I lack the experience in this design approach
• In Single ended systems, electrical energy flows in one direction, from the power station to ground/neutral - it just happens to pass through our components along the way
• granted the polarity changes in an audio signal, but the energy will always flow from source to "ground"
• so if I had to GUESS - both wires should be aligned in the direction of the energy transfer
• but it is not something that I would account for in my cable builds

Sorry I could not be of more assistance

Regards - Steve

@williewonka - I always wanted to understand the signal flow and what is claimed to be directional wire.  I know when you get to OCC quality the wire is drawn/produced in a certain way and there is a consensus that signal flow should follow that direction.

My specific question for DIY speaker cables - If you buy into this directional approach, should you have positive and negative runs in opposite directions?

I have used a lot of Furutech Alpha hook up wire and have followed their directional arrows.  

Can't claim that I can tell a difference, but this one kept me up thinking last night....

Marty

RE: The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable - I forgot to mention that when winding the helix conductor ..

• I initially cut both the wire and the tubing to the appropriate length
  • I left enough wire to form a 1" tightly twisted section at each end of the conductor
  • so the tube was 2" shorter than the wure
• but when I finished winding the coil there was 4" of wire at the free end
• so you need to make the tubing longer than the wire
• e.g. On a 3ft cable I would recommend making the tubing 6" longer than the wire and trim to the correct length once would
• I believe that the wire forms a tighter coil than the tubing so you end up with excess wire

Other than that - break-in is proceeding very nicely.

Regards - Steve

@fai_v - this appears to be an older amplifier. The balanced symmetrical design is relatively recent,  I also saw no warnings on picture of the amp (rear view) that indicates the amp is a balanced symmetrical design.

I believe the Helix cables will work with this amp

Regards - Steve

Will I be able to use the Helix speakers cables with a Yamaha PC2002 power amplifier? 

It has balanced inputs but i don't know if its a fully balanced design.

The Ultimate Helix DIY Cable ? - I think so

This version implements everything I have learned/tried over the past few years

• 2 x 20 guage UP-OCC 5N solid Silver wire from Parts Connexion, each wire in it’s own teflon tube for the Signal wires, with a complete twist every 2" - 3"
• 2 x 18 gauge UP-OCC 6N solid copper from Parts Connexion, each wire in it’s own teflon tube for the Neutral wires
• Teflon tube with an internal diameter equivalent to a 14 gauge bare wire
• Absolute Harmony RCA plugs

I pondered this build for about 3 months because of the difficulties there might be attempting to wind a coil using a solid wire inside a Teflon tube - and not only one wire, but two wires, because this build would adopt the Double/Double approach.

• now - If you are using a wire with insulation, the insulation, just bends with the wire
• my concern was that the insulation would creep down the wire as I wound it
• leaving some part of the coil without Teflon tube around it and no way to remedy this problem.
• turns out, provided you hand wind the first 4-5 turns, then the insulation seems to stay in place and you can then use the drill to finish the winding process
• But you do have to proceed carefully because you have to control the feeding of the two wires very carefully otherwise you can get spaces or worse still, the wires coils on top of the previous windings.

The rest of the fabrication went without problem - I used a 3/16" (5mm) rod to wind the coil on.

Another concern was whether there would be sufficient improvement to justify the expense of using silver wire?

The answer came as soon as I plugged in the cables, bridging from my Bluesound Node 2i to my Bryston B135 amp - that uses...

1. Power cables are all 2 x 14 gauge UP-OCC bare Solid copper in Teflon tubes for the Live conductor with 2 x 12 gauge UP-OCC stranded copper for the neutral
2. Speaker cables are 2 x 14 gauge bare solid UP-OCC copper in Teflon tubes for the Signal conductor with 1 x 10 gauge stranded silver plated Mil-Spec for the neutral
3. The previous Interconnect I was comparing it to was 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC copper in Teflon tubes for the Signal conductor with 1 x 16 gauge Neotech solid UP-OCC copper wire for the neutral

Well - this new Interconnect has surpassed all of my expectations..

1. image was the first noticeable improvement - larger in all directions with much more precise placement of artist and performers
2. Dynamics are faster and crisper
3. There is more body to the mid range - they sound "warmer"
4. lower frequencies have a lot more texture and precision
5. mid/upper range Details and Clarity are the two attributes that sort of crept up on me as I played through my audition tracks
6. there are far more micro details - i.e. the venue acoustics are more apparent and there are far more of the little echoes and reverberations of the concert hall.
7. But there is a more musical presentation about these cables - they just seem more complete
8. Listening at lower levels you still hear all the details without compromising details, musicality and emotion of the music.

This is probably the end of the line for the Helix, mainly because because I am all out of ideas as to where to take them next :-)

But boy-oh-boy - what an ending!

It’s good to end on "a high note" - pun intended :-)

Give them a try - for me it was worth it

Regards - Steve

Thanks. I ordered a batch of parts from Take Five Audio.  They had all of the parts in 1 place and they ship down here to the States cheaply.

🤞 I got the tubing sizes correct.

Thanks for the amazing thread @williewonka  @wig  @grannyring and everyone.

Ron

@bigslacker - That is correct - it provides the very best performance because

• The tube is quite rigid and does not collapse around the wire so the actual point of contact between the wire and the tube is extremely small
• the air gap inside the tube (i.e.around the wire). becomes the dielectric and results in a Dielectric Constant that is very close to Air - which has a Dk of 1.1.
• Lower Dk results in improved clarity and details, which in turn improves the image asccuracy

For best results the inside diameter of the tube should be 25% - 30% larger than the diameter of the bare wire to be most effective. Larger is OK, but does not yield any better results

Hope that helps

@williewonka In your post from Jan-15 '22, are you still putting each signal wire inside it’s own Teflon tube?

How about simply using braided copper shield as ground wire for the power cable? I don't think it play a critic role other than protection. It meets the gauge requirement as well. Regards.

@mawe - There appears to be some interesting articles on the web on this topic

• some say yes - all three have to be the same size
• some say the neutral can be bigger than the Live wire
  • but definitely NOT the other way around
• some say the ground wire can be larger or smaller than either Live or Neutral

So the Helix basically has

• the Live wire being smaller than the neutral wire
  • which appears to be acceptable
• The Ground wire is smaller than both the Live Wire and the neutral wire...i.e.
  • 12 gauge ground (for HD cables)
    • with an 11 gauge Live and a 9 gauge neutral
  • 14 gauge ground (for source cables)
    • with a 15 gauge Live and an 11 gauge neutral
• both of which appears to be acceptable

I do think this is where common sense has to be applied to the ground wire.

It’s purpose is to carry electrical current only under short circuit or other "conditions" that would be potentially dangerous.

However - that ground is not there to allow the component to continue functioning normally.

• in the event of a catastrophic failure somewhere within the component
  • it is designed to prevent the case/chassis of the component from becoming "LIVE"
  • Generally, if this occurs with a properly connected ground wire, then the current draw should exceed that of the fuse in the component,
    • which will break the live feed to the component
  • OR trip the breaker on the supply panel.
  • I believe the ground wire in either of the Helix cables should be sufficient to protect from electric shock and be of adequate gauge such that the breaker will trip (or the fuse will blow) long before the ground wire is compromised to the point of physical failure

The only other instance I am aware of where wire sizes of all three wires MUST BE IDENTICAL is

• In those countries, such as Norway, that has a balanced power distribution network where both live and neutral carry the same voltage, with a 180 phase difference
• or balanced power supply/conditioners popular with the audiophile community
• My web site warns of both of these situations and recommends NOT using the Helix cables.

Having said all of that - it you are concerned about the different gauges used

• then please make all three conductors the same gauge
• There may be a very slight impact to performance, but it would be minimal

Regards - Steve

@williewonka 

Thank you very much for the clarification!  I will search out vendors for the materials.  My first goto is usually partsconnexion as long as they have the item in stock.

And again thank you so much for this cable receipe - I have made a set of rca interconnects 2 years ago and they are very nice.  I have built a new system in my great room and now am ready to replace all the cables with your helix design.  So I will finally get to hear it to it's full effect.

Best wishes.

@williewonka 

Steve, just a comment on your proposal for power cords:

According safety regulations in Europe you need to have the ground wire minimum the same size as the “life” and “neutral “ conductors. 
Something you might have to mention in your spec sheets.

I’m not sure how this is in US, but would guess it is the same as well.

Thanks Steve

                      The info helps a lot, as I am encouraging others to consider this design for their future cable projects, I am on boards as well, and have nearly all the materials to start.

The Power Amps are still to undergo conversion to Balanced, hence my slow to start performance.  

@dbass - here’s what I am using at present

• Interconencts:
  • 2 x 18 gauge solid UP-OCC copper for signal and
  • 1 x 16 gauge solid UP-OCC copper neutral conductor
    • Some prefer 2 x 16 gauge for the neutral
• Speaker cables
  • 2 x 14 gauge Solid UP-OCC for the signal conductor
    • optionally 2 x 16 gauge for the signal conductor, but on my system they both sounded the same
    • However, this may NOT be the case for all AMP/Speaker combinations - speakers that required a higher powered amp may require the 2 x 14 gauge option
  • 1 x 10 guage stranded silver plated Mil-spec wires for the neutral
  • but you could use 1 x 12 gauge or 2 x 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC also
• Power cables
  • 2 x 14 gauge Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire for the Live conductor for the heavy duty PC
  • 2 x 12 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the Neutral for the heavy duty PC
  • 2 x 18 gauge Solid UP-OCC bare copper wire for the Live conductor for the Source PC
  • and oyu can use 2 x 14 gauge stranded Neotech UP-OCC wire with Teflon insulation for the Neutral for the Source PC
  • 1 x 12 gauge copper wire with Teflon insulation from Home Depot for the Ground wire

I buy my UP-OCC 6N solid bare wire from parts connexion because I only use the Air adaption for all my Helix cables, which requires bare wire inside a teflon tube - it saves me having to strip the Teflon insulation off of the Neotech and I think it provided a little better dynamic performance

https://www.partsconnexion.com/occ6n-copper-hook-up-wire.html

They also have Neotech wire and many other brands

But shop around - there are deals to be had - just make sure you are comparing apples to apples

The silver plated Mil-spec I order from Take Five Audio - again there are alternative from other vendors, so shop around

Deep Cryo Treated Cable And Wire - (takefiveaudio.com)

Others on this thread prefer the Duelund with Cotton/Oil insulation for the signal wire on Interconnects and Speaker cables, but I prefer the faster dynamics of the UP-OCC copper on my system

But realistically - all of the wires I mentioned above are excellent performers when used for Helix cables - it becomes a matter of "personal preference" and how well a particular component works with the selected wire(s).

Hope that helps - Steve

I am looking for a good source for the Neotech cable to build these cables (PC, IC, and speaker).  The first question I have is do I want the stranded wire or the solid wire - as I think I see both in UP-OCC from Neotech?  And I see options from SonicCraft at the moment - any other good options?

Thanks!

In all fairness, I would install better XLR connectors to conduct the test. Furutech make excellent XLR connectors at the same price point than KLE.

I would also give them the mandatory 150 hours soaked time before reviewing their performance. I have just upgrade my Helix speaker and 1 RCA cables and can testify that some funky things are happening between the 25-40 hours mark.

Cheers,

Norco74

Just an FYI - SINGLE ENDED or XLR ?

I just received these observations regarding XLR vs. Single Ended Interconnects...

I have compared XLR and RCA Helix Image interconnects. 

My XLR cable uses Neutrik NC3MXX connectors, each pair (one for +, one for -) of UP-OCC Neotech 18 AWG copper wire is twisted inside a teflon tube. RCA cable uses KLE Absolute Harmony connectors and two Neotech UP-OCC copper wires 18 AWG are inside their own teflon tubes.

 

Verdict: RCA version is better. I don’t know if it’s separated tubes for each wire or connectors but single-ended interconnect just sounds more musical for me. With balanced cable the sound is more straightforward and less refined.

But it’s not bad, of course.

I actually believe which cable type is ultimately superior is in fact due to the internal circuitry of the components being connected.

But as others have observed - there is very little difference between the two

I think both cable types perform to very similar levels and if you want the absolute best sound - then both cables should be built and tried in your own system before coming to any conclusions.

Regards - Steve

@svampebob - I can’t say I have noticed an abnormally long break-in with speaker cables, particularly if they use the Air Adaption, but it is possible that the Bananas (or other connectors) are what is causing an overly long burn-in.

I mention this because the KLEI RCA’s sound best after 300-400 hours and I believe my initial pair of speaker cables took 200-300 hours, but that was back a couple of years now, so I am working from my less than perfect memory here.

I have reused all my plugs, so the break-in times of any more recent cables I have built can vary and cannot be considered a "benchmark".

What I find interesting about your post is that you have managed to isolate a specific range of frequencies that seem to be impacted by break-in.

Whereas, what I listen for is clarity and details in the venue acoustics, which in turn are responsible for changes in imaging, specifically artist focus and placement

Definitely something to ponder for the future.👍

Thanks for the update - Steve

Hi good folks,

I use double neotech SOCT-14 in tube in helix config for speaker wires for my bass/mid drivers. I use a great active crossover/eq so the frequency response does not matter too much as I can just adjust everything appropriately. When I installed the helix I had to dial in a low-shelf filter, meaning rising eq from around 200 - 1000Hz, in total 2,5db if I remember correctly. It sounded fantastic. After several 100 hours (I estimate 300) I have gradually turned it down and I am finding I have to remove it completely now. I can only see 1 reason, burn-in of the cables, everything else is burned in a long time ago. Have anyone else experienced this, that the mids takes a long time to open up and gain level? Naturally one could propose my ears are extremely bad, but it is not my impression. Unfortunately though I have a umik-1 I don’t have measurements, but i often run a sweep from bottom to top to confirm my impressions. When I adjust anything it is always based on many separate listening sessions.

@norco74 - I didn't bother with any special handling or cleaning because I wanted to see how the bare copper fared without it.

There as an initial very slight loss of brightness of the copper, but in the last 6 months the colour has not changed at all - I assume because the oxygen inside the Tube has been used up.

I have a "sacrificial" piece of the same bare copper wire on the audio stand for comparison and that has tarnished much more

I also looked at the ground wire that connects to the electrical panel and it too is still fairly bright after 6 years, so I am pretty certain that sealing the tube will prevent further oxidation, because teflon does not let the oxygen in the air through to the copper.

If you do want to take extra care then Deoxit will do just fine.

Regards - Steve

I have 2 pairs of Helix speaker cables from which I am driving a pair of Maggie 1.6 in bi-wiring mode with excellent results.

Still using the Duelund cotton live wire, I was prepared to invest in making the UPOCC upgrade when I checked Steve’s latest mod on his website. The airgap mod is a logical one in this whole Helix development scheme of things.

I am prepared to jump from the Duelund live wire to the dual UPOCC airgap mod but before I have some questions about cable oxydation and handling.

- How does long term oxydation affect the sonics on a solid core wire? We all know how it can be on a multistrand cable but as for a solid wire, anyone has info on this?

-Would you advise to use latex/cotton gloves when manipulating to bare copper so any contaminants present on your fingers won’t end up on the bare wire?

-Would it be beneficial to use Deoxit on the solid wire before inserting it in the PTFE tube? Not sure how to technically achieve this but it could be as simple as spraying the product on a shop towel and run the wire through it while inserting it in the PTFE tube.

- Aside from sealing the PTFE with hot glue and a piece of shrinktubing, what else can be done to prevent wire oxydation?

Cheers,

Daniel

A friend who produces their own cables has a preferrence for for KLE Harmony Copper and Copper Wire.

When they produced a set of Cables for myself, I supplied the Silver AECO RCA and there was not any comments made on a significant perceived change to the SQ when they were hooked up to the producers system.

The Wire used was D.U.C.C and this had been perceived as having a added richness when compared to PC CCC.

The Silver RCA, might have impeded the full richness of the Cable being delivered ?