Duelund conversion to DIY Helix Geometry Cabling

@pindac 

its on my list to try!  Specifically  the Acoustic Revive SPC-AV TripleC. I’ve recently completed a massive overhaul of my system. Just letting everything settle a bit. 
I’ve been experimenting lately with different low mass connectors. All my favorites (AECO, KLE, ETI) are getting beat by Neutrik Speakons!! Ive been pretty shocked by the results. 

@camrector Have you considered PC Triple C Wire.

I have wore on my sleeve, my being an advocate of the Wire Type within this Thread and on this forum on quite a few occasions.

I own it as Purchased  Cable and as the Wire only. It is owned as both Solid and Stranded, and I also own a length of PC Triple C / EX, that is quite expensive.

There is a Helix Build using Triple C within this thread, a report on the impression mase is available from the end user.

In my own HiFi community in the UK, my loaning of the the wire has made a big impression, where a growing in number are superseding the use of OCC Copper and Silver for the Triple C.

Some who have experienced it in comparison to OCC, and are in possession of systems claimed to be very resolving, are classing the impression made as Night/Day as a betterment. 

As a result of my loan of Triple C, and growing in number converts, the wire has caused a stimulus and curiosity to those that are introduced to it.

The Wire is now found in use as PC, Hook Up Wire, Interconnects, Cart' Tags, Speaker Internal and Speaker Cables and it is also now used as a Continuous Wand Wire within a Tonearm as a upgrade by a renowned UK based Tonearm designer / builder. 

The same TA builder has intimated, they may send a Cart' to a rebuild service to have the Coils wound in Triple C, when the suitable wire is discovered. 

I hope you become curious and make inroads to try out this alternative wire option. 

Where from we can purchase teflon tube 

I plan to use Neotech OCC copper 14 AWG hook up wire  with pvc Insulation which will be stripped

Which Is proper teflon tube gauge to use with 14 AWG Neotech wire - 12 AWG ?

@sasho - you can use whatever wire you like.

My preference is for the 10 gague silver plated milspec because I like the sound.

I have tried a few wires for the neutral and no other wire to date has provided the warmth and details.dynamics except - I did try UP-OCC copper, but it sounded far too analytical for my liking and it was very expensive

I also prefer having a larger gauge on the neutral, so,,,

• if you are using an 8 ohm speaker then use 2 x 16 awg for the signal and a 1 x 12 awg wire for the neutral or a 2 x 14 awg wire
• if you are using a 2-4 ohm speaker then use 2 x 14 awg for the signal and  a 1 x 10 gague wire for the neutral - or a 2 x 12 awg wire

You can use a stranded wire or a solid wire, but the stranded wire is ore flexible

Hope that helps - Steve

Steve,

Would you please recommend an alternative to 10 AWG Mil Spec Silver Plated Copper Wire from take faive audio used as neutral conductor In Helix Speaker Cable or Power Cable

What makes so special that particular Mil Spec Silver Plated Copper Wire

@camrector - thanks for all the info, very much appreciated and very useful going forward

cheers, Steve

@williewonka 

The Wan Lung factory in Taiwan is licensed to produces UP-OCC Copper and UP-OCC Silver for Audio Sensibility, Acoustic Zen, Atlas Cables, DoubleHelix, Harmonic Technology, Neotech, XLO, Analysis Plus, MIT, Purist Audio Design, and WireWorld
Furukawa of Japan was licensed to produce PCOCC Copper for Audio Sensibility, Audience, Audioquest, Furutech, Oyaide, and PS Audio.
But they discontinued production in 2013
Sumitomo of Japan was also licensed to produce OCC cables but stopped manufacturing as well.

@williewonka 

here is a list of Dr. Ohnos patents. The most often quoted patent is
4605056 issued in 1986, where he describes in detail the actual casting apparatus.

Continuous metal casting – Atsumi Ohno
Patent number: 4515204
Filing date: Dec 14, 1982
Issue date: May 7, 1985

Process and apparatus for the horizontal continuous casting of a metal molding – Atsumi Ohno
Patent number: 4605056
Filing date: Jun 13, 1984
Issue date: Aug 12, 1986

Method of producing a metallic member having a unidirectionally solidified structure- Atsumi Ohno
Patent number: 4665970
Filing date: Nov 20, 1985
Issue date: May 19, 1987

Process for continuous casting of metal ribbon – Atsumi Ohno
Patent number: 4789022
Filing date: Mar 18, 1988
Issue date: Dec 6, 1988

Method for horizontal continuous casting of metal strip and apparatus therefor- Atsumi Ohno
Patent number: 5074353
Filing date: Nov 23, 1990
Issue date: Dec 24, 1991

@williewonka 

Research and phone calls. 
OCC stands for Ohno Continuous Cast. It’s a patented manufacturing process. 
Any manufacturer can (buy) license the patent, buy the appropriate equipment, and produce copper wire and call it OCC. One can look online at the patent and see who has licensed it and when they have licensed it. 
Wan Lung is the only factory that has a current license. They produce the wire for Neotech and Harmony. They will make wire for anyone if you purchase enough of it 
Then print your name on it. 
 

https://www.wanlung.com.tw/email.htm

 

@camrector - I’m not disputing your claims, I was just pointing out that the wire that is sold as OCC copper by my "Trusted sources" performs significantly better than OFC copper and even Mundorf solid silver wire and therefore would provide the performance I was observing

I think going forward and for the purpose of this thread that the wire that is being marketed as OCC wire by companies like Neotech, whilst they may not be actual OCC wire in the true sence, the term OCC is understood in the audio community as identifying a wire of a higher quality (i.e. superior to OFC copper)

FWIW - the bare OCC wire I purchased from Parts Connecxion actually performed a little better than the Neotech wire when used in an identical Helix AIR cable, where the Neotech cables had been stripped of it’s insulation.

Perhaps the improved perofrmance was due to it’s 6N rating as opposed to the Neotech 5N rating. No idea where they get it from, but it is a very good wire indeed

Just from a pure interest perspective

• where did you happen to find this information - I would like to read more
• Who does Wan Lung sell their wire too?
• Do they make wire for the audio market?

Many Thanks - Steve

@williewonka

I’m not having any issues sourcing OCC. Neotech is found like you said at a few places.

I think you missed my point entirely. I’ll rephrase.
If the wire didn’t come from the Wan Lung and Wan Lung factory only, then it is not OCC. No other factories in the world have the license to manufacture the OCC patent. One can buy whatever it is that Parts Connection and VH audio from a few different factories in China. But it is not produced by Wan Lung and therefore not official OCC. Wan Lung produces Neotech

I would not trust your “trusted sources” products that are not Neotech.  I’m not saying that they are being deceptive on purpose. But what I’m saying is that only one factory in the world (Wan Lung) currently produces true licensed OCC. They do not supply bare wire, they do not supply anything with “Airlock insulation”. Other factories do and call it OCC but it isn’t.

@camrector very glad to hear you are liking the Helix AIR cables 😀

Sorry to hear that you are encounting issues with sourcing the OCC wire.

Personally I use any f the folowing companies

• parts connecxion bare OCC copper and OCC siver wire
• neotech OCC copper wire from a couple of different sources - but it must state that it is OCC 
  • Sonic Craft
  • HiFi Collective
• VH Audio OCC copper and silver aire with Airlok insulation

I have compared the wire from all of the companies above to the more affordable OFC wire and can confirm that the wire exhibits the faster dynamic perofrmance that OCC wire provides.

Here is a link to the Parts connexion wires threy currently have

• Parts Connexion Bare wire

Unfortunately, they do not curently stock 12, 14, 16 gague sizes, but that can change

Other sources, e.g. ebay, alibaba etc.. I do not trust.

When investing in OCC wire I would rather pay a premium from a "trusted source" rather than gamble on pay a little less from an ebay merchant that may less scrupulous .

The Helix AIR geometry will perform extremely well using OFC copper in terms of noise floor and clarity, but it wil lack in terms of details and dyanmic performance compared to the same cables that employs OCC wire.

For your speaker cables you might want to try the following

• for the signal wire: 2 x 14 gauge bare OCC wire inside teflon tubes
  • each wire is inside its own teflon tube
  • basically the AIR geometry
  • use a tighter twist - one twist every inch
• for the neutral wire: use the same wire gauge/geometry
  • but twist the wires in the opposite direction
• insert each assembled conductor in its own cotton sleeve
• insert the two conductors in an expandable sleeve to keep things tidy

This will ensure the conductors will perform welll in a balanced scenario

Regards - Steve

@williewonka

ive been down the OCC hunt rabbit hole for months now.
I’ve come to the conclusion that unless the wire came from the Wan Lung factory in Taiwan, it is not OCC. Sure every Alibaba Chinese company will tell you that theirs is OCC but when asked to see any certification or if you ask them why they are not listed on the patent licensing, they balk.
Wan Lung has never supplied OCC bare.

I’ve been making every type of Air Helix cables now for my system as well as for friends with great success. My entire system is now Air Helix (besides speaker cables due to balanced topology of Yamaha AS2200) Recipes are dialed in. All with NeoTech ,AECO low mass connectors, and some stunning PC connectors. Very Happy.

Oops, sorry.  I totally missed that you were looking for bare.

@ketchup - I was looking for bare OCC wire

I can find Neotech insulated wires on Parts Connexion, but they used to have their own PC brand of bare wire in thicker gauges - They onlt have the thinner gauges right now

Cheers

I see 14, 16, and 12 Neotech at Parts Connexion.

I haven't had cause to buy and bare OCC copper wire in a while and I'm now finding that it appears to be scarce.

Does anyone know a supplier for 12/14/16 gauge bare OCC solid copper wire?

Parts Connexion, my goto store,  only has 18 gauge oe smaller

Thanks in advance - Steve

That was supposed to be a WTB ad, not WY.  Damned autocorrection!

I posted a WY ad looking for Acoustic BBQ Helix XLR cables:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisb7176-wtb-acoustic-bbq-helix-xlr-interconnects

While I prefer Acoustic BBQ branded products because Bill's workmanship and quality control are top notch, but I have no idea if he even made these cables with XLR connections. I therefore am open to other builds of this geometry if I can't get Acoustic BBQ versions.  If you have some that you would like to sell, please contact me.

Exactly. Expandable nylon is very durable compared to cheap PET sleeving and will give a very professionnal look to your PC, IC and speaker cables. As it is not as expandable as PET, it better installed as a loose fit

Cheers

Daniel

@camrector - instead of teflon, use a nylon expandable sleeve, you wull not see the "lumps" and its' much more flexible

Regards - Steve

Thanks @williewonka. I’m using silk sleeve already but you can still see the lumpy

helix through it. So maybe sliding the entire cable into a flexible silcon tube wouldn’t degrade anything. 
These really are fantastic. So far I have 2 source power cables and an XLR.

Power cables are 2x 16g for the live and 12g for the neutral and ground Neotech OCC with neotech connectors and the XLRs are 2x20g neotech silver live and 16g Neotech copper in Teflon for the ground with AECO silver connectors. 
@knock1 just wanted to see if anyone had done it first before I go unsoldering connectors and dissembling. 🤷🏻‍♂️

@camrector - no need for the Teflon tube - it would make the cables very stiff

It is very easy to insert the finished cable into an expandable sleeve and it will not degrade performance at all.

The cables on the web site are without sleeve so people can see how they are made

I have tried both the plain nylon expandable sleeve and the more elaborate patterned sleeve.

I will caution that on the interconnects you will probably not be able to get the sleeve inside the KLE RCA housing..

Hope that helps - Steve

@camrector 

How about try it yourself and find out 🙄

Maybe @pindac, but I see a 1980s telephone cords coming out of from my system.

@williewonka what are the effects of sliding the entire helix into a large Teflon tube so I could then cover with nice sleeving?

Just finished helix interconnect cables using left over, from speaker cable project, of Duelund DCA16GA tinned copper multistrand wire in cotton and oil as the signal wire and Mil Spec 16 AWG Silver Plated Copper Wire Green Cryo Treated as helix. I am very pleased, they bettered Basis Audio Perfect Signal Transmission Technology, mostly in the sound stage.

Thank you Mr. williewonka

P.S. The Duelund speaker cables amazing as well.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder"

I am sure there are others that can't but help admiring their handy work, and the quality seen for the producing a uniform 'Helix Configuration' .

Any recommendations that won’t reduce performance but can cleanup the helix lumpy, 80s telephone cord appearance? 
Maybe put the whole thing in a large silicone or Teflon tube. 
 Sleeving alone doesn’t help. Thanks 

@tecknik - I have great repsect for the Nordost approach, since they were one brand the started me down this path.

At this point in time the formulas I have posted work well for me and I like to keep things simple so that other can try them without getting too complicated to build

But one of the main reasons for making the Helix design available to everyone is to generate interest in their approach so that others like yourself can apply your own addaptions to the design.

Good luck with your upcoming speaker cables, it will be interesting to hear your feedback on their sound

FYI - I did try using OCC copper for both live and neutral on a pair of speaker cables, but I found them to be extremely analytical and detailed, so I reverted back to the 10 guage Mil-spec for the neutral, which seemed to create a more musical result

Regards - Steve

@williewonka I’ve posted on my systems page a version showing a PC, all be doing a new speaker cable next week and we’ll post them. 

Have you tried 4 wires on both and both L and N in Teflon tubing. 

@tecknik , interesting post.

I tried 4 wires for the live  and found it did not improve things over the two wire version.

Can you post pictures of the cables and construction techniques on your system page

Cheers, steve

Williewonka I’ve been playing around with this helix geometry for sometime now and have found what works best for me and that’s for PC powering source equipment I use 8 strands of 18 awg solid core pure Japanese copper in Teflon tubing for both live and neutral for a combined 9 awg. It’s not the awg so much has the number of conductors. I would like to use 20 awg solid but difficult to find here in Vietnam. For ground I use 2x 12 awg stranded. 
The main PC from wall to conditioner s 7x 14 awg in Teflon tubing for both live and neutral. 
I first tried 4 x 18 awg and 4 x 14 awg then 6 x 18 awg and 6 x 14 awg and each step gave me more of what the helix geometry is so good at.

I didn’t do this by chance but from studying how cables like Nordost Odin and Audioquest use multiple solid wires on both live and neutral.

I use Furutech Rhodium mini spades to connect with there Rhodium NCF plugs.

These are stunningly good cables for reasonable cost.

@mikerubin The XR 5000 is the XLR version of this Cable.

@pindac .Thanks.  Unfortunately, it appears they only use RCA connectors and I can use only XLR’s with my DAC and amp.

SAEC SL 5000 Cable has PC Triple C Wire and if the construction is looked into, a Helix Twist can be identified as being used.

The above is guidance to a Manufacturer, not as suggestion the SAEC Cable is a mimic of this Cable construction type.  

I didn’t read all the way through this thread but my interest is piqued.  I note that the posters here are DIY constructors making these cables for personal use, but are there any commercial manufacturers of cables with this geometry?  I know that Grannyring made these for awhile but no longer does so.  Otherwise, I haven’t seen anyone else offer them for sale. I am looking for a single XLR IC to start.

@lemonhaze - good stuff indeed 👍

Glad is oanned out

Regards - Steve

@williewonka, I added a 20AWG Ag to the 2 x 24AWG Ag and now have over 300 hours use and I feel the performance is now stable and probably will not improve further. The additional wire was twisted to follow the 2 thinner wires and then covered the bundle in a cotton sleeve before inserting it back into the helix coil. Tight fit.

The helix was wound on a 5mm diameter rod which I've now covered in heat-shrink tubing enlarging it for easier fit. 

The result is more fleshed out providing a more balanced sound without losing the upper end sparkle, I think. Not being able to revert back as a sanity check is unfortunate, so going on memory is all I can do but I can say I'm entirely happy with what I hear. Excellent stuff. 😁

Not built any power cables yet due to other pressing issues but will when I get a gap and report here.

@norco74 - nevr tried it, but I would think that the Helix would be an improvement over a more conventiona speaker cable because it does not colour the sound

• but it really depends on your hearing. I play bass guitar so my ears are accustomed to the lower frequncies and I like the bass details the Helix provides.

So regardless of whether you use the speaker terminals or the line input, you need a cable that can deliver an uncoloured signal

It would be cheaper to use a good line input cable, as opposed to the heavier wire used in the speaker cable, but that is only if the main amp and the sub supports a bass line ibput/ouput jack

Hope that helps - Steve

Does anyone have tried the Helix speaker cable to fire up a REL subwoofer using the high level input? Just curious if the improvement will be noticeable.

@tecknik - RE:

I believe you mentioned the Teflon tube to be 25-30% larger than the bare wire inside it. what effects does a larger Teflon tube have on the sound.

I found that 25-30% was  suitable value because

• a smaller size made fabrication more difficult
  • e.g. for speaker calbes it became more difficult to insert the a 10 ft length of wire into the teflon tube if it were smaller that 25-30% lager than the wire
• A larger size might collapse around the wire with frequent handling or when using tight bends at the back of a rack

Hope that helps - Steve

It’s wire from an Audioquest diamond usb cable I wasn’t using anymore..

5v powering a FMC been running this wire for months without issue, so far….

@tecknik 

Be careful here!

What voltage and current this DC cable will handle?

Williewonka, I believe you mentioned the Teflon tube to be 25-30% larger than the bare wire inside it, what effects does a larger Teflon tube have on the sound. 
 

i just finished building a new dc power cable using 2x 26g wires and the smallest Teflon tube I could find is probably a 10g . 
 

regards

tecknik

@pindac Dear PINDAC, thank you. I will go with PC-TripleC as of now. Cheers. 

I have not found a Bulk Supplier of the Wire, as D.U.C.C which is the name used when found in a Cable.

Mitsubishi has a Ref Code for the Wire which I believe is the same wire. I have never found a Bulk Buy option whilst researching this Ref Code either.

https://www.mitsubishi-copper.com/en/products/materials/mof_6n8/

My D.U.C.C Wire has been purchased as Mitsubishi D.U.C.C Cable.

Note: D.U.C.C Wire has the capability to underpin the presentation with a hint of Richness, this really suits a Vocal, but in one system during it in use as a demonstration against a Pure Silver Wire Cable, one attendee was claiming there was a sound being produced where the Female Vocal sounded slightly nasal.

It might be worth having a Trial with a Cable prior to fully committing to the Purchase. I myself have not had a better Cable between CDP>DAC, this has superseded, OCC, PC TripleC, and a Mapleshade Ribbon.

@pindac Dear PINDAC, may I ask where to buy D.U.C.C. bulk wires? Thank you.

@williewonka, I will heed your advice, add the extra signal wire and allow it to accumulate some hours before doing anything else. I think that the single strand of wire should not take as long to settle down as the full build did.

Yes the OCC is available with PVC insulation and is as you say less expensive than PTFE. It's also easier to remove.