Duelund cast Pio Hybrid Copper/Silver or Rs series with Silver Bypass PIO

Wow, I figured if any forum had folks that might have used some vintage WE capacitors, this would have been it. I'm curious as to how they compare to the high dollar caps.

 

BillWojo

 

For speaker crossovers, where does the original Western Electric 8 uf, 500VDC oil filled caps fit in with regards to the sound when used on an Altec crossover compared to these newer offerings? I have several of these sitting on a shelf, they are just so darn big and heavy in those steel cans. Sure look cool with that WE logo on them though.

 

BillWojo

My massive crossovers with tinned copper CAST caps are now breaking in! Has anyone experienced the background noise floor change during the first 1000 hours?

 

 

I am using the DuelundHybridcopper silver they are Great and seamless it’s like having a small  silver bypass it takes200 hours to settle in to 95% 

on my preamp I have a 1 uf Jupiter Copperfoil ,and to open thetop up a bit a .022 vh audio Cutf tefloncopper foil2.2%  of the 1 uf value after 3-400 hours sounds really good , theDuelund hybrids slightly better.

pumpwheel... v-cap Cutf works well in a bypass for power supply.  if you want transient and dynamics i strongly recommend on the power supply section.  For signals, the v-cap is on the bright side, it can be tooo detail from my experience.  The duelund silver bypass is very nice.  

I have not, but I have used Vcaps before and like I said earlier they are just not natural and smooth enough for me.  I do not believe in bypassing caps in the signal path usually as it can lead to a nervous and phasey sort of sound. However, the combo I mention above is a special exception and works marvelously. Other combos are tricky and the results may or may not be good.  Crap shoot. I have done due dilligence on the Duelund silver foil bypass cap and Jupiter copper foil combo and all is great.  

Hello @grannyring 
Did you tried bypass with a V-Cap CuTF 0.01uf?

The newer tin plated copper.  

Hi @grannyring ,

Did you use Duelund copper or Tin plated copper wire?

Regards,
Alex.

I wire my speaker projects with Duelund stranded copper in cotton.  I use 20 gauge on tweeters, 16 gauge on mids, and 12 gauge on the bass.  Love it.  My favorite wire of all time.  I also like Jupiter solid core copper in cotton on tweeters and mids.  

This was just for the tweeter per your note? I never liked silver plated copper wire.  All of it I tried was too bright and aggressive for my likes. Confused about your needs now. 

For 3-way (2x7", 5", 1") we need many meters of hook-up wire. Neotech silver with gold plating is too expensive here.
What do you think about DH Labs Wire Stranded Silver-Plated Continuous Crystal Copper? Which is better to use pure copper or silver-plated copper?

Never heard it. Sorry. I would use a nice solid core wire in silk or cotton on that tweeter.  Jupiter makes nice solid core silver and copper wires in cotton and silk. 

Another great option, not in cotton or silk however, is the Neotech stranded silver with gold plating. Get the heaviest gauge which I think is 23 or 24 from Parts Connextion. This wire sounds absolutely wonderful, but is not cheap.  Much better than the Mundorf silver/gold wire based on my experience.  

Yes I would go with the Jupiter copper foil cap for sure. If you want even more air, articulation, space, and realism add a pure silver foil Duelund bypass cap .01uf.  This particular combo works so well together. I have found the net result (combo) to be the finest cap available at any price. 

erik_squires4,  grannyring4 Thanks guys!
We tried the Mundorf Supreme classic, but we want even better. Tweeter requires  4.7uF so maybe we will try Jupiter Copper.
What do you think about Silent Wire LS wire? I was told that this wire gives speed transparency and air sound.

Erik is right about the Mundorf cap.  If you want more air with a more natural and real tone, then Jupiter copper foil is your best bet. They are not cheap however. 

@pumpweel
You should try the Mundorf EVO SIO.

I find they exaggerate this effect, so I don't like them, but I think you would. :)

Best,
E

grannyring4 Hi. ET338 is a dynamic tweeter with a good transfer of coppers plates.
But not enough air sound. I want more air in the music.

I don’t know it, sorry. What do your hear and want to improve?

grannyring do you know the Morel ET338? What do you think which capacitor is the best for this tweeter? 

They are nice, but not my particular cup of tea. Just a tad too thin sounding vs Juputer or Duelund CAST. 

I have seen little mention of the VH Audio Copper- Teflon caps I have been using 
these and for resolution none better ,but take up to 4-500 hours runin time.they are flighty warm ,but not much speed and resolution
for a bit more air  and  depth the Duelunds are vest 

Hello.
So which one sounds better in the crossover - Jupiter Cu or Duelund RS?

I would not think the Rs is comparable with the Jupiter copper series.   The cast duelund to me sounds better than the jupiter copper series.   Has more organic, lively and romantic sounding.  

Jupiter caps are excellent and are the best "bang for your buck" brand. The Flatstacked series which I'm familiar with has a natural tonality and open soundstage. 

I bought Duelund RS for high frequency part of my crossover.
I did some burn-in using Frybaby2.
I like results. Sound is unbelievable transparent! Now my Altec 604 can be compared in this regard to Lowther based speakers.
I have second order LP filter for mid-base driver of Altec 604.

Will changing of capacitor in 2nd order LPF do the same huge effect?
I need 8uF capacitor. Will Jupiter VT Series capacitors good a match for LPF for my Altecs?

I certainly do think so.  I have compared the Duelund CAST to the Jupiter and I actually like the Jupiter even more. It is a wonderful sounding cap.  

Here are my system videos:
https://youtu.be/JtGaPl0e6ek
https://youtu.be/Rm1vN6ohwQc
https://youtu.be/NsdupSrl0LY

Hi grannyring,

Do you think Jupiter will work better with compression horn driver then Duelund RS?
I mostly listen jazz and classical. I rarely listen rock. I don't listen "junk" electronic and dancing music at all. 
I have 300B SET DIY amplifier (6SN7-6F6-300B).

Regards,
Alex.

Yes it will. Jupiter copper foil will be even better with that wonderful Duelund bypass cap.  

Hi,
I have Altec 604E speakers with Werner Jagusch crossover. I bypassed high frequency driver's part of "original" WJ crossover vintage capacitor with Duelund Tinned Copper Foil & Wax/Oil BYPASS capacitor. Sound improved a lot. It sounds like new, much more expensive speakers!
I'm thinking about buying Duelund RS capacitor.
What do you think, will Duelund RS capacitor bypassed by Duelund Tinned Copper Foil & Wax/Oil BYPASS capacitor significantly outperform "original" WJ crossover vintage capacitor bypassed by the same Duelund Tinned Copper Foil & Wax/Oil BYPASS.
Regards,Alex.

The New Duelund Tinned Copper,paper in oil  .1uf bypass caps are Excellent 
The New Tinned Copper which their new Jam caps have which I have in my preamp are truly excellent they have a aluminum case ,not quite as good as the top paper case.  The Tinned  Copper bypass cap I just got  .my brother and his friend say these little caps truly add depth,as well as air to loudspeakers.
They also have a Silver paper in oil , a little better detail ,then the Copper bypass 
But not as much body. And at 600volt  can be used anywhere.

 Nice  looking speakers. Look to have great build quality.  

You made a good decision sticking with the heavy gauge solid core  wound over foil. You will love the results.  What are you using for internal wire. Looks like Duelund copper stranded? Thoughts of placing the crossover outboard? Very good for Sonics. 

Grannyring

Mike Lenehan (Lenehan Audio) is doing the upgrade from my ML3 Ref’s to the newer ML5 Ref’s (they’re his speaker brand). Not so many people in the USA have his speakers, but here in Australian he’s very well known for his own brand, and has a very loyal band of customers (me being one).

His standard ML5’s come with Jantzen Superior caps, with Duelund carbon resistors, but he’ll upgrade what others want (based on his recommendations). A lot of people are gong for Duelund VSF’s, but I went for the Jupiter Copper as been told they have a bit more ’flavour’ to them over the VSF, and as Mike’s speakers tend to be very neutral/clean/precise (or whatever others want to call it, maybe resolved is a better word) I’ve went for the Jupiter Cu. The Woofer network wouldn’t give back the full value of using Jupiter Cu’s, therefore have went for the VT rounds in here.

Lots of people have been writing about the benefits of the Duelund Silver bypass Caps so I’ve included these in both the Tweeter & Woofer Networks. Realise most would say it’s not worth it in the Woofer network, but as my current ML3’s have to be shipped to the other side of Australia and back for the upgrade (I live in Perth, Mike lives in Queensland) I thought it worth including for the small(ish) cost to add.

The inductors are hand wound by Mike (and his sons, who also help in the business), and he prefers these (also helps with the cost). Some people are going with Jantzen Wax Foil inductors, but Mike suggested I stick with hsi hand wound one’s. I’m not much of a numbers guy when it comes all the componenets, etc. but he said the 10awg produce 1.25mh DCR 0.09ohms (he may even have improved on this, I’m not sure).

I’m also changing the tweeters, currently 30mm Wavecore TW030WA14, but changing over to SEAS Exotic T35’s. Not my shout, but Mike and others feel it’s a worthwhile upgrade (a few people like the benefits of the Alnico magnet)

I’m just a customer who pays the bills to the guy who knows what he’s doing - Mike. He’s not a salesman, but a speaker builder who has pride in his work, and as such will put everything into his speakers (at a cost) to make them the best sounding he can (within the budget).

Cheers
John

My current speakers:

https://imgur.com/a/YAjeR

Very nice.  You have some very high quality boards that will help make your speaker sound beautiful. Did you make the inductors or were they made for you? Nice! 

Having my speakers upgraded, with the crossovers currently being made up:

• Tweeter Network - Jupiter Copper Caps (4 x 10µF and 2 x 1µF),
  
• Woofer Network - Jupiter VT Round Aluminium Caps (2 x 6.8µF)
  
• Main Caps being bypassed with Duelund Silver Caps (0.01µF)
  
• Resistors - PathAudio 10W
  
• 10awg hand wound Air Core Inductors
  

The crossover board is getting a wee bit tight, especially with the main Caps (they’re actually slightly bigger than a Coke can). Not quite finished yet, still need a couple of resistors for the Shunt, and then attach the ribbon wiring, but nearly there :)

https://imgur.com/a/xFRxn

There are 2 excellent capaciyors I am currently using  in my preamp no direct voupkjng caps it us transformer coupled but has a big Mundorf Supreme 22uf 
Very respectable I added 15% ,the new Duelund Jam  using their latest using a lite tin over Copper which for sure opens up the top a bit in s paper oil, but in a Aluminum housing not quite as fleshed out as the cast but close at half the cost 
Very nice depth and instruments have a nice accurate tonal balance.
On the Dpeskrr end I gave a Huge 68uf  Clarity Csa cap  the Jupiter 2.2 ads some realism and depth  the last cap Brand new Jsntzen Alumen Z is a Aluminum foil with very very thin dialectric very smooth but fadt and detailed grest imaging 
A great match a very easy cap to like blends with most other caps. 
Priced very nice I put in a pr of 4.7uf caps  the Voxativ drivers really come alive 
A new budget favorite cap  they only go to 10uf.  Hifi collective is the only place yo buy , order the FedEx option delivered in 3 business days . 
Both Duelund Jam, and Jantzen  Alumen Z foil  caps  would be a great combo 
The Jsntzen only 100v ,for Loudspeakers. I AM ARE 630v and are tanks a 3.3uf 
85mmx 75mm and over 1 lb each.

No worries on the oil. I am not aware of any such issues in real life usage. Oil impregnated caps have been sold for decades.  This would be especially true for crossover usage where there are no heat issues to worry about. 

Excellent point!  I am with you on this, longevity might be the Biggest issues for the Duelund caps or any other caps that has the oil impregnated in them.   

The magic of the Cast caps is undoubtedly in the oil. I’ve used 600v Duelund Cast caps in an amp and I know the beautiful sound they convey until the oil leaks.

Oil leaks is one issue. What about the shelf life of the oil? Does oil degrade over time? Does the Duelund magic deteriorate over time?

V-Cap CuTF and Jupiter Copper caps won’t have those issues and are my preferred caps to use.

De-coupling, usually goes to ground for power supply smoothing.

Coupling caps have the ac music signal going through them, never bypass them, and always best to use one only here, the most highest quality you can afford.

Cheers George

Grannyring...the duelund silver foil .01uf bypass is Amazing.   I think it's one of the best bypass cap that works wonder in any cap.   They make a huge differences in Any cap! 

George.... thanks for the info.

let say if i did use the hybrid duelund 1.0uf 630v for the coupling signal, which is basically a silver foil .01uf cap bypass with the cast copper cap?  So this will not work?  What is the differences between de coupling or coupling?  Can you Please educate me on this? 

zipost
this will be in the signal coupling cap 1uf 630v.

You say it’s a coupling cap in the signal path, not a de-coupling cap.
You should only use one quality cap as a coupling cap.
No bypass caps, as you will smear the sound because of the different behaviour of each cap at the overlap point (frequency).
It’s fine and encouraged to bypass de-coupling caps with smaller ones.

Cheers George

Another approach not often talked about here is using parallel caps. Using larger value (10uF or so) caps, would be interesting to note if any boutique caps sound significantly better. Essentially self-bypassing.

Best,

E

To clarify, your question on the Duelund hybrid cap relates to my post in that they are made using the Duelund CAST copper cap with a silver foil bypass cap.....the same cap that can be purchased separately now. The cap I posted on above.

So yes I am confident the hybrid Duelund cap would be simply wonderful sounding.

I have to tell you I do not believe in bypass caps placed on film caps. Yes, on electrolytic caps in the power supply. Usually bypassing perfectly good film caps sounds kind of phasey and odd.

Well, forget everything I just said. Why? Because these new Duelund Silver foil bypass caps are like magic. I added them to a set of .47uf Jupiter foil output caps in my Int amp and simply am overwhelmed with the improvement. My experience, in electronics, is crazy positive with these glorious sliver bypass caps. Glorious.

These would be so special as bypass caps on tweeter and midrange caps in a crossover, the output of Class D amps, coupling positions in tube gear, output on dacs....etc....

Yes, my experience has been so positive.

I’m currently running and generally liking Mundorf SGO coupling caps in my EL34 based amplifier. I’d like to preserve the spatial depth and overall energy in the high frequencies, but build out some weight/texture/tonal color in lower registers.

Would the Duelund CAST Cu/Ag be a good choice? 

I’ve used Jupiter caps, as well as the Audyn True Copper caps to great effect in other projects, so I’m familiar with the contenders. That said, I’ve read that some folks did not favor bypassing coupling caps, which is what the CAST hybrid cap is in effect. Ultimately, I’m looking for a vote of confidence before making such a non-trivial investment.

Why not use the silver bypass cap on the better Jupiter foil cap for the best possible combo?