Does Lumin x1 needs a dac ? does a good dac will improve it ?

@maxwave 

I thought about doing something like that, maybe ill do it in future time. Thanks a lot for you support and advice's !

@azwill  Wow , thanks a lot a lot and a lot, you are defiantly a shark in high end. Thanks for all the effort and all the info.

@azwill  "It is my opinion you can add much of the sound signature by using short one at end connected to a less expensive cable when you need length."

This is so mad it might just work! Take it a step further and you could have Kubala Sonsa on the pre amp end, Transparent in the middle and Tara Labs on the source end :)

Well very few use a complete loom of one brand.

@haimr,

I think you are going to be very pleasantly surprised as you continue to accumulate playing hours on the X1.   You do have the opportunity to test X1 direct with no preamp using Leedh before making preamp decision.  I would caution to thoroughly read the Lumin App instructions and postings by wklie, who is Peter Lie, who is LUMIN Firmware Lead.   He routinely posts on a number of forums, though I do not recall seeing him here.  Audio Sharks has a specific Lumin forum, and he is quite active there.   He is an excellent resource and also a pipeline for possible feature and software enhancements on the Lumin platform.

The primary caution with Leedh involves the dual volume settings and control on the App when you disable Leedh option.  You then can be at 100% volume rather than the reduced percentage you set when you configure Leedh.  Unexpected 100% volume can be dangerous to your speakers and your hearing.  

I was asked about cabling on my X1.  Admittedly, I have been relatively modest on cable expenditures.   I am currently running fiber optic ethernet to the X1 from a PF Buffalo modded switch. For power cord, I am currently using a Triode Wire Labs Digital American to the power supply.   I commonly trial existing power cords to new locations when I add a new piece of equipment and/or new power cord.   Previously, I had an Audio Sensibility Signature V2 power cord with the X1, but moved that to the Makua.   For analog XLR, I am running an experiment.   Prior I had tried Audio Sensibility Signature Silver XLR, but moved it to the connecting cable to my active crossover from preamp.   Prior to getting my Antipodes K50 server player and PF Buffalo, I had to reorganize equipment positions to accommodate.  My XLRs from DACs had been 1m Triode Wire Labs.  Repositioning equipment meant that 1 meter was not long enough for all pieces.  I had done an experiment on AES/EBU out from the K50 using a Mogami AES/EBU Redmond fabricated for me years ago--actually 4 of them.   I was happily surprised how it sounded from the K50.  These are longer than 1 meter and I tried using them as analog XLR output cables.   I use Mogami Golds for much of my home theater XLRs.   The AES/EBU cables had no prior hours on 3 of them and short run time on the other.  The initial perception with practically no run time was a bit bright and edgy but improving as I left in.   I then connected my Triode Wire Labs to the Mogami AES/EBU coming from both X1 and DirectStream DACs as last cable to the preamp.   The results for me have been very good.   It is my opinion that the last section of cable has the largest sound influence of the cable flavor, and XLR terminations make for an easy connection.  I have yet to reverse the Triode Wire Labs and AES/EBU cable locations for the X1 primarily because it is a pain to access the cable connection locations on the X1 due to the "roof" over them and I have liked current sound.   Writing this will probably spur me to try it and compare.  

I suspect many of you will scoff at what I tried, but it is an easy experiment using all analog XLRs, all AES/EBUs, or a combo.   For high end priced interconnects, length gets very expensive and long ones may not resell well.  It is my opinion you can add much of the sound signature by using short one at end connected to a less expensive cable when you need length.    I am not saying that the sound signature would be exactly the same as just one longer interconnect, but I think you will be pleasantly surprised what you can get trying this with various cables.

@maxwave,

For the passive switch box, I purchased a Kramer Electronics VS-4X.  I really was reticent on adding this, but with my home theater processor in the system and my Vinnie Rossi not having HTB, my choices came down to disconnecting and connecting XLR cables to my active crossover every time I changed to home theater and again back to 2-channel system, replace/remove my Vinnie Rossi unit, or go to a passive switch box.   I had read of another Lumin user using the Kramer unit and did not notice any degradation, so I decided to try it.

I do believe that everything we insert into our audio systems have some influence, so am in the camp that everything matters.  However, we may or may not personally detect an audible difference.   I did not immediately notice a difference, but also admit I did not continue to try to critically test listen on various music selections and resolutions for this.   Basically, I wanted the switch box to be an acceptable solution, and this could have affected my opinion.   However, it was still a kludge, though better than manually switching cables out constantly.  

Before the Vinnie Rossi L2 DHT Signature, I had a VR LIO and had Vinnie configure an HTB for me.  However, he would not do so on the Signature with concerns it could negatively affect audio results.  I do find it interesting that he once again is making that available for your new BRAMA--gorgeous looking unit.  I would think some form of bypass is a favored market customer feature option that can be done very well.  My Mola-Mola Makua allows programming on each input (other than the DAC module inputs) for Line, Phono, or Direct, where Direct is a programmed pass through that disables volume control of the preamp, and should be used only with sources that are volume controlled.

@haimr 

Instead of selling your LuminX1, at a reduced  price ; You should , maybe look for

the DAC you are thinking about ( Terminator 2  ) on the used market . And connect

it to your LuminX1 via the digital output.Then decide if you like it.

Otherwise , you will have to buy a streamer  with your new DAC.

Just my two cents.

Enjoy

@audioman58 OK , I  could not disagree with you more too . I'm sure that you understand a lot in comparing and in high end sound according your experience, but for mean time i will try to enjoy my lumin as much as i can. In the future I will consider to make a change and maybe it will be the terminator...

Thanks again for you effort to give me the right answer ... 

@cindyment  Thanks a lot man !!!!!!

Hamir I couldnot disagree with you more.

the terminator with Hermes reclocker,and BNC 45 MHz,and 49Mhz clock sync 

all for $5500 it was much better then the X1 lumen ,throughAurender 200 streamer 

there was much more realism and dynamics ,sorry no Sabre dac ,is better then a very good R2R dac  and for dynamics not even close , just pop the top in the Lumin 

and then check out the Huge Dual -0 core transformers massive capacitance with 

Ultra caps and at least 200 for filtering alone .Anyone looking just physically look at both The Terminator 2  has only been out for 4 months  you probably heard the version 1 , even if you didn’t,as I mentioned  the Hermes Dcc reclocker  total $5500 delivered and weighs 54 lbs together 42 lbs on its own .i have been doing audio 40+ years and owned a Audio store I think I know quality very well ,just compare apples 🍎 to 🍏 .

@haimr , what is at the output of your Lumin DAC? -- A transformer. Why? To give it a transformer sound, most associated with tube amps. There really is no other reason to use a transformer. You can’t avoid what that transformer is going to do to the signal. Everything else may be state of the art in the unit, but put those transformers in, and it no longer is. I am sure there are lots of pseudo-technical reasons around "best way to achieve balanced output", etc. but they are hardly the only way. Here is the data sheet for the exact transformer:

http://www.lundahl.se/wp-content/uploads/datasheets/7401.pdf

Unfortunately only a single point distortion measurement. (Note the op-amps in the circuit are usually good for about 0.005% so they are not the main contributors in the test circuit). No matter how good the ESS DACs are, this is the bottle neck.

The transformer is going to give them a house sound, and you may absolutely love it. I hope you do. But I am with @azwill here, when you are in the realm of DACs with a house sound, you are in realm of personal preference and that preference may change on a music by music basis, and possibly other pieces in your system and with the CAT amp it may be too much of the same thing.

You don’t need a new/different DAC, but you may find you prefer a different DAC matched with the CAT for some music.

I think you may own the highest WAF rated floor standers on the market.

@lordmelton Before i decided to buy my speakers I've listened to quiet a lot of speakers(Magico A1/A3/S1/s3, YG carmel, TD (that are made from wood) , proac, piega coax 711 and more...) and i fall in love with my vivid, so for mean time for the next 5-10 years or more  or less i will try to reach to the maximum ability of my speakers.

Thanks a lot man for all your answers 

@azwill 

I have had a lot of hesitation about getting a two monos amps. only system,

using a switch box  ;  or an integrated amp..

I have only two sources : LuminX1 and a HT processor.

I finaly order the new Vinnie Rossi Brama that has a HTB.

My hesitations came from the switch box’ s audio qualities and the addition of cables.

And my reading about the preamp as being the , most important gear in a system.

I am still not sure , I have made the right choice.

@audioman58 Sorry man, but I'm totally disagree with you. I think the opposite, Iv'e heard the Denafrips Terminator plus and i think that X1 gives him a knock out at first round !:) , but that's only my opinion !

I've heard a couple of dac's that were better than the X1 ,but not denafrips. I've heard playback design mpd-8 and I think he is wonderful dac , I loved it very much. I've heard msb reference and i think he is  better then the X1 , but he costs much more.

Thanks for your response and again , my opinion about the dac's that I've mentioned its are only my opinions :) . 

@maxwave I'm using the X1 as my only source too. I have a CD player but i don't use it. I"m planing to buy a TT in the future , I love the special sound of records.

Thanks for all your responses.

@azwill Hi and thanks a lot for your response !:)

I don't think that I still reached to 200 hours playing of my X1 . I think that approximately i used it for maximum 100 hours , not more. Its quiet new...

Don't understand me wrong, I'm quiet satisfied with my X1 and my system, I just felt that i can a bit improve it and I'm sure that when i reach to 200 hours and more it will be even better.

I'm still not using Roon, but I'm planning to use it in the near future. For mean time I'm using Tidal through lumin streaming application.

I using Plinius LAD CD preamp - is too old and i think that compared to my rest system he is simple, he is not good enough. I'm planning to buy in the next year , i think , a new  preamp of CAT (SL1 legend) , I'm sure that when ill buy it , it will defiantly improve the sound . mean time i will try using lumin as a preamp.

Thanks a lot man for your effort  in your response. 

@haimr 

The sound may also depends on the upsampling ´ s level   you choose .

I have once consider Goldpoint. as a switch box . 
 

@azwill

Thanks for your precision .
What brand of passive switch box ?
I am supprised , the switch box , doesn’t add some coloration or restriction to the sound.

I have always though , the less between the source and amp, the better.

Which brand and model of interconnect do you use for your Lumin ?

@haimr Thank you for your kind words. However after looking at your system I would think that the problem lays with your speakers. I'm very old school and I believe speakers should be made out of wood. Most musical instruments are wooden. IMHO fibreglass (Vivid) or aluminium (Magico) cannot reproduce the soul of music but it can and will produce clinical detail in abundance. For a similar speaker I'd strongly suggest you give the Eggleston Works OSO a try. They should work beautifully with your valve power amp. Try them with and without your pre amp. I'm a dyed in the wool Eggleston fan, full disclosure.

Word of caution on the Lumin it is very, very sensitive to every type of cable you use with it. My dealer uses it as his reference front end because it's so transparent, that can be a good or bad thing but needs good system matching.

There are always better DACs but I'd get everything else right first.

Good Luck

@audioman58,

My opinion is that DAC preferences are very much system, music and room dependent along with personal preferences for presentation.   I have not heard the Denafrips Terminator 2, but have read a number of positive user reviews along with positives for Holo May and others.   I have more DACs than the ones I mentioned above.   They all present differently.   It's ok to prefer one over another, but your choice may not be the same as someone else.  We fortunately are in a period where there are a good number of very fine performing DACs and many are far less money than would be expected for their performance just a few years ago.   

My experience with the X1 is that it really needs several hundreds of hours to settle in.   Lumin is very responsive on various forums with advice and problem solving for customers.   Lumin is also very fast on software enhancements as needed.  

I communicated extensively with a gentleman not in the US about my impressions on Mola-Mola vs the Lumin X1.  He has very fine speakers and associated equipment and his DAC had been an unmodified DAVE along with M Scaler.  He was looking to simplify his system while not sacrificing sound quality.  He was able to work with 2 dealers to provide him a Tambaqui and an X1 at the same time for him to home audition and evaluate.   Both dealers knew the situation and allowed him to keep both for extended audition knowing his intentions were real.   He used same cabling on both and diligently worked to minimize extraneous variables.   He was not initially impressed with the X1, but I advised him to get to at least 200 hours of run time on it, with 400 hours being even better before deciding.  It truly was interesting reading his ongoing evaluations.   Based on his early impressions, I thought he would end up with the Tambaqui.   He, however, ended up purchasing the X1.   For his system, room, music,  and his objectives, the X1 was preferred.   Someone else could have very well picked the Tambaqui, and he nearly did.  I have found both are very good for me,  but are different.  I very much like both.  

I respect your purchasing decision, but others may not make the same decision.  As our systems evolve with other pieces, including cabling, isolation, etc., what had been superior in our opinion may also evolve.

Enjoy

@maxweave,

I have used two preamps with my X1, a Vinnie Rossi L2 Signature DHT with Living Voice 300B tubes and Mola-Mola Makua.   The Vinnie Rossi does not have HT bypass.  I added a passive switch box which allowed me to work a HT bypass for my HT as well as a option for my X1 to go direct.   I truly like the holo touch of the DHT tubes, but the Leedh option seemed more dynamic and transparent, especially using the Lumin App over Roon.  

Some may want to know my opinion on the Mola-Mola vs the X1.   They are different, but both very enjoyable.  In my system and in my opinion, the X1 conveys more of a concert, open space presentation, for me a you are there presentation.   The Mola-Mola gives me more pinpoint imaging illusion and more they are here feel, but these impressions can be specific music album dependent as well as DAC option input on the MM.

I currently have the VR out of the rack, but may bring it back in to experiment on running MM output through the DHT tubes for fun.  I also have a PS Audio DirectStream using I2S from Antipodes K50.   I primarily listen to the MM various DAC input options (AES/EBU, USB, and Roon Ready ethernet) and the X1, but the DirectStream is still enjoyable warm, comfortable listen.   Both the X1 and MM have more spatial detail for me.

I picked up a preowned Mola-Mola Makua with DAC module.  It has more inputs than my VR and allows me to configure HT bypass for one of the locations as well as bypass for the X1, should I wish, or utilize preamp volume control.  I am continuing to evaluate the options there on whether to use Leedh or MM volume Control.  Leedh seems to me to have a bit more body while the MM is very resolving of detail.

Totally wrong. The dac in the Lumin is pretty decent but not even in the same league with the new Denafrips Terminator 2 that is without question 

for $4500 it is a great dac and if not bough5 direct this dac would easily 

be $10 k  I have heard the x1 thetop R2R  dacs are just so natural and analog 

sounding and the powersupply alone weighs more then the Lumin it’s 42 lbs 

add a Hermes dcc reclocker and for under $5500 a great digital setup 

That will stand up to Any dac in the $10 k range .i tested a Bunch of digital 

through our tri state audio club  streamer dac combo ,streamer dac, 

the dcc reclocker cleans all incoming then reclocks the signal with. Very high quality  dual temp control oven clocks  to I2S to the dac ,it is a ideal setup.imo

the best setup under $10 k 

The LuminX1 is my only source for music . No CD player, no TT , no tuner.

@haimr,

It was not clear to me how many approximate playing hours you have on your X1.  I have more DACs than good sense.  They all present music a bit differently but I really like the X1.   In my experience, the X1 needs substantial playing time to settle in.  In my system I found at 200 hours the unit was consistently better, and even more so at 400 hour mark.  

The X1 is a streaming DAC and is not configured to accept digital inputs from a CD transport or player.  

It also was not clear to me if you are using the Lumin App to access Tidal or perhaps using in conjunction with a server and player like Roon?  If the latter, what do you use to serve Roon Core?  I do not utilize Tidal, but do use Qobuz.  I find sound presentation is somewhat more transparent with Lumin App, but I often use Roon for the broadly developed landscape options and convenience.

You indicate you have a Plinius preamp--a well regarded company. You can experiment with the X1 going directly to your amp, bypassing the Plinius, by using Leedh Processing option with the X1.  I have used my X1 with preamps and also with Leedh, which really is very good.  

Best

@willgolf Thanks man,  I will call him at the right time. Thanks a lot !

@audiotroy Thanks a lot man , thanks for resetting me from wasting unnecessary money ...:)

@lordmelton Thanks man,  i will try to investigate a bit more about lumin. by the way I'm very happy with my lumin, just wanted to know if i can improve it a bit more. Thanks

@haimr 

Call Dave in NJ from the above text.  He sold me all of my Lumin products.  He can either help you  with the proper cabling and hookup to your CD player or he does sell a very good less expensive Music Server that would benefit your system

The x1 is amazing sounding And is a bargainfor the sound quality

We have to go to a 16k server plus a 16k dac

be able to beat an x1

So even for 14k the x1 is approaching the best digital playback possibile

DAVE AND TROY

audio intellect nj

Dealers of reference digital

AQUA HIFI FORMULA BRICASTI M1SE LUMIN X1 T+ASDV 3100HV

Lumin X1 is an ultra premium product go back to your dealer and get some suggestions if you're not happy because you should be.

It has in addition to the regular dac a 1 bit dac for DSD. It has direct fibre optic input for streaming to minimize jitter and noise.

Sounds to me like you need to understand how all the features work.

Good Luck

@maxwave OK, you are right , but I'm not using for connecting my cd...

The USB is a digital input ( and output )

I would like , the S/Pdif be the same 

@willgolf Hi and thanks a lot . About the cd, no I'm not running the cd through the lumin as i know it is not possible....There are no digital inputs. That's one of the disadvantages of the amazing lumin product

Are you currently running your CD player through the X-1?

I have had 4 Lumin products including the X-1.  The X-1 is a damn good DAC.  In fact, I sold the X-1 and replaced it with a Lampizator Pacific which is double the money.  I can tell you there was not an incremental $16k worth of sound improvements.  The way to improve your sound is to get a quality Music Server.  I went with a 7tb Lucas Audio LDMS.  The LDMS was the single biggest improvement in my sound system.  

@maxwave @thyname  thanks guys you really helped me a lot !

THANKS !!!

The ´´ Digital Audio Output ´´ is used to bypass the lumin’s DAC .

If you want to use another external one for having another sound ( AKM chip )

The LUMIN X1 is their flagship DAC at $14,000. You cannot possibly add another DAC to it. It simply does not make sense. Are there better DACs? Of course. But then you would buy those presumably better DACs instead of the LUMIN X1, and not in addition

AKM chips ( ex : AKM AK4490EQ ) are prefered by some people.

I own LuminX1  and will keep it without adding another DAC .

Dé-Amphasis option  in the setting is related to CD  but I don’t know how.

@maxwave Hi, 

First of all, thank's for your response. Second , i don't really know what Dual ES9038Pro ....means , but as much as i understood your suggestion, what you are saying is that dac won't improve my lumin only will give it a different sound ?

Thanks again !

LuminX1´ s DAC  is Dual ES9038Pro SABRE DAC.

A DAC with another  chip  will give you another sound. IMO 

@jasonbourne52 Thanks a lot for your suggestion , thanks for resetting me :)

No, the DAC in the Lumin is high quality! Some here will tell you otherwise! Present day DACs, either alone or in streamers, have reached a high enough level that they can be considered sonically equivalent. There is no X factor where one DAC will "blow away" the competition! Use what you have and enjoy it. Don't get caught up in the neurotic pursuit over miniscule (if any) differences!