@andy2
Ok then...bring your tuque and button up!
Ok then...bring your tuque and button up!
Do speaker cables need a burn in period?
I have heard some say that speaker cables do need a 'burn in', and some say that its totally BS.
What say you?
What say you?
1,164 responses Add your response
glupson I even watched a few videos with different approaches on the Internet. Even the simplest ones look very risky to me, but that is not saying much. Thank goodness there are people who can actually pull it. >>>Speaking of different approaches you ought to consider trying some, you know other than your usual bland blah blah blah. No offense. |
andy2245 posts 09-26-2018 3:59pm First of all, resistance is a scalar quantity, not a vector, therefore it has no intrinsic direction. Just like temperature is a scalar value. It’s does not make sense to say this direction temperature is higher vs. the other direction. Resistance is calculated from electron mobility - that is how mobile the electrons given a certain material such as silver, copper ... Now since it’s hard to measure mobility of a single electron, usually mobility is measured by average using a bunch of electrons regardless of direction, at least in concept. So the mobility of electrons should be the same left to right, up to down to sideway. Therefore resistance should be the same left to right, up to down to side way and so on. But what if you want to know the mobility of a single electron? Supposedly on the left side of the electron, there is some impurity such as an oxygen molecule or some gap in the lattice structure, now if you want this electron to move to the left, it would have less mobility vs. if you want this electron to move to the right. In practicality, these impurities in the metal lattice are more or less randomly distributed so on average they cancel out therefore regardless of direction, the mobility of the average should be the same in all direction. Anyway, I have to get back to work. Will continue later. >>>>Uh, no offense, but there are so many technical errors, mistakes in logic, naïveté, and misunderstandings in that post, Andy, I hardly know where to begin but will maybe take a stab at it later. So to speak. We’ll see. Anyone else, of course, feel free to comment. Agree, disagree. Someone here must surely have an idea. Yes? No? Maybe? A legal opinion? |
First of all, resistance is a scalar quantity, not a vector, therefore it has no intrinsic direction. Just like temperature is a scalar value. It's does not make sense to say this direction temperature is higher vs. the other direction. Resistance is calculated from electron mobility - that is how mobile the electrons given a certain material such as silver, copper ... Now since it's hard to measure mobility of a single electron, usually mobility is measured by average using a bunch of electrons regardless of direction, at least in concept. So the mobility of electrons should be the same left to right, up to down to sideway. Therefore resistance should be the same left to right, up to down to side way and so on. But what if you want to know the mobility of a single electron? Supposedly on the left side of the electron, there is some impurity such as an oxygen molecule or some gap in the lattice structure, now if you want this electron to move to the left, it would have less mobility vs. if you want this electron to move to the right. In practicality, these impurities in the metal lattice are more or less randomly distributed so on average they cancel out therefore regardless of direction, the mobility of the average should be the same in all direction. Anyway, I have to get back to work. Will continue later. |
@cleeds To your question - Yes @geoffkait Yes, I have rolled up my sleeves and investigated aftermarket fuses of several varieties and directionality of those fuses. Bottom line is that I do not perceive differences between those aftermarket fuses and my typical Littelfuse or Bussmann fuses (I do however perceive differences between cables, so go figure). Most of those aftermarket fuses are still in my gear and I have no reason to remove them since I own them, they work, and they don't seem to make things sound worse. My own trials and observations of those fuses and common sense related to the length of a fuse wire compared to the many signal traces, electrical parts, and feet of wire present in most equipment are what has led me to be skeptical of what others report hearing. However, for clarity, I do not question what they hear, just the reasons why. Also, unlike some others, I am fine with this difference of opinion and feel no need to change anyone else's mind. |
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mitch2 Geoff “How many customers of (directional) aftermarket fuses are there since they first came out 15 years ago? 100,000? That’s a whole lot of typical people who can hear wire directionality.” Of course, I am skeptical that those folks actually hear the direction of their fuses rather than the psycho-acoustical effects of cognitive bias or loss aversion based on marketing hype and the fact those items cost more than the "regular" fuses some of us unenlightened folks use. >>>>So, you’re skeptical? So what? Get in line. That’s why audiophile fuses have been controversial from the beginning. A real skeptic doesn’t keep repeating the same old line about expectation bias or psychological effects, he rolls up his sleeves and investigates. That’s the scientific method. Of course if you’re just mouthing off and not really interested in the facts of this case I can certainly understand. |
glupson "How many customers of (directional) aftermarket fuses are there since they first came out 15 years ago? 100,000? That’s a whole lot of typical people who can hear wire directionality." As with any epidemiological approach, it would be interesting to see the changes in new-fuse-buyers incidence in general market and their relationship to current marketing trends. Often, probably always, objects of hallucination are related to common names/events surrounding the affected subject. 100 000 new customers over 15 years is between 6000 and 7000 a year, assuming that someone actually knows how many different people bought such fuses. It would be hard, if not entirely impossible, to know how many individual buyers exist. However, given the very specific nature of such a purchase and obvious dedication to the subject, it is safe to assume that each buyer has bought more than one fuse. Which would greatly decrease the number of people interested in fuses and hearing those differences. In the world where number of iPhones may be approaching one billion, a few thousand people who, for whatever legitimate or not so acceptable reason, hear differences in fuses can hardly be considered "a whole lot of typical people". To begin with, people who buy aftermarket fuses are not typical and carry a heavy burden of, admittedly good-natured, potential bias on their findings. As is frequently the case, it’s probably best for all concerned to file gubson’s gibbersih under WHATEVER. |
mitch2 ... I am skeptical that those folks actually hear the direction of their fuses rather than the psycho-acoustical effects of cognitive bias or loss aversion based on marketing hype ...Skepticism is a good thing. Have you ever experimented with premium fuses and whether they exhibit directionality? That's what separates the skeptics from the nay-sayers. |
Geoff, How many customers of (directional) aftermarket fuses are there since they first came out 15 years ago? 100,000? That’s a whole lot of typical people who can hear wire directionality.Of course, I am skeptical that those folks actually hear the direction of their fuses rather than the psycho-acoustical effects of cognitive bias or loss aversion based on marketing hype and the fact those items cost more than the "regular" fuses some of us unenlightened folks use. |
"How many customers of (directional) aftermarket fuses are there since they first came out 15 years ago? 100,000? That’s a whole lot of typical people who can hear wire directionality."As with any epidemiological approach, it would be interesting to see the changes in new-fuse-buyers incidence in general market and their relationship to current marketing trends. Often, probably always, objects of hallucination are related to common names/events surrounding the affected subject. 100 000 new customers over 15 years is between 6000 and 7000 a year, assuming that someone actually knows how many different people bought such fuses. It would be hard, if not entirely impossible, to know how many individual buyers exist. However, given the very specific nature of such a purchase and obvious dedication to the subject, it is safe to assume that each buyer has bought more than one fuse. Which would greatly decrease the number of people interested in fuses and hearing those differences. In the world where number of iPhones may be approaching one billion, a few thousand people who, for whatever legitimate or not so acceptable reason, hear differences in fuses can hardly be considered "a whole lot of typical people". To begin with, people who buy aftermarket fuses are not typical and carry a heavy burden of, admittedly good-natured, potential bias on their findings. |
mitch2 I have seen stranger things and do not doubt there could be a metallurgical basis for asymmetry based on the manufacturing process so I would not refute or even spend time arguing Geoff’s assertion of directionality but it is the "sounding better" part where I become a skeptic. There are just too many other things going on in every system for me to believe that a typical person could discern differences in wire directionality by ear. >>>>>Of course there could be reasons why someone might not hear directionality. I’ve always cautioned that negative results of directionality, like anything else, must be taken with a grain of salt since there are quite a few things that can and do go wrong with evaluations and make it difficult to hear differences. You know, things like mistakes in the system, hearing issues, and errors in the test procedure. I think it’s safe to say negative results for cable directionality are relatively rare over the past 25 years and can be thrown out. How many customers of (directional) aftermarket fuses are there since they first came out 15 years ago? 100,000? That’s a whole lot of typical people who can hear wire directionality. It’s not rocket science. You listen. Hel-loo! |
@geoffkait The wire in cables and fuses is physically asymmetrical. That’s why resistance measures slightly lower end to end one way than the other. Guess which way sounds better.My understanding is that the premise is the asymmetrical directionality is a result of how the wire is drawn. I have not looked into whether there are measurements showing a repeatable difference in resistance with wire direction although I seem to remember some here citing the HiFi-Tuning fuse test results as one example. I have seen stranger things and do not doubt there could be a metallurgical basis for asymmetry based on the manufacturing process so I would not refute or even spend time arguing Geoff’s assertion of directionality but it is the "sounding better" part where I become a skeptic. There are just too many other things going on in every system for me to believe that a typical person could discern differences in wire directionality by ear. It would be like hearing a fly’s wings flapping in the backseat of your car going 60 mph down a gravel road or, in terms of water, the effect of a stick on the flow rate of the Mississippi River, IMO. |
How slow is costco_emoji? Costc_emoji is so slow that after all this time he still doesn’t know what directionality even is. All cables are directional regardless of whether they have a ground. If the cables have a ground the directionality of the wire should be *controlled* to comply with the ground direction. Audioquest does this. Most cable companies do not do this out of ignorance or laziness. The copper on printed circuit boards is not pulled through a die so it’s exempt from the directionality rule. But all the internal wiring in electronics is directional. The wire in inductors, transformers, point to point wiring, and all the wiring in speaker crossovers, and other internal speaker wiring. The industry is apparently rather retarded when it comes to the touchy sudject of directionality. And will hear none of it. Very strange IMHO. Directionality Smart Page (from Audioquest), https://www.audioquest.com/theory-education/article/83-directionality-its-all-about-noise |
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Physically asymmetrical HOW? And how can resistance measure lower at one end than the other? Stupid pseudoscience garbage. Measure a resistor with leads one way, then flip them around, and they measure the same. I’VE DONE IT. I build amplifiers. Fuses, HAH! NO clothes. But then I guess many of you are laughing because I'm somewhat late to this game. Very funny. |
Is the hypothesis proposed that there is directionality inherent to wire, built into the physical structure and composition, even before it is ever connected to a voltage source, either DC or AC? Or, is it that directionality becomes apparent only after connection to such voltage sources the hypothesis? If the former, please explain what physical structures are fabricated into wire that determine directionality. Otherwise, everyone here is simply full of it. |
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