Vinyl heresy-overhang induced distortion is not that important I have learned and am of the opinion that the quality of the drive unit, the quality of the tonearm, the quality of the cartridge and phono stage and compatibility/setting of all these things (other than setting overhang) and the setting of proper VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth are far more important than worrying about how much arc-induced and overhang- induced (the two are related) distortion one has. I learned this the hard way. I will not go into details but please trust me-I am talking about my new ~15K of turntable components for the deck itself and excluding cartridge and phono stage. I have experimented with simply slamming a cartridge all the way forward in the headshell, placing the cartridge mid-way along the headshell slots, and slammed all the way back, each time re-setting VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth. I would defy anyone to pick out the differences. I have 30K of tube separates, a Manley Steelhead, and DeVore O/93’s. I submit that any differences in distortion due to sub-optimum arcs and deviations from the two null points and where they are located (those peaks in distortion) are masked several times over by distortion imposed by my tubed gear and my loudspeakers. To believe that your electronics and loudspeakers have less distortion than arc-induced distortion is unrealistic. I have heard startling dynamics, soundstaging, and detail with all three set-ups. It is outright fun to listen to and far preferable to my very good digital rig with all three set-ups.
My point is that getting perfect alignment is often, not always, like putting lipstick on a pig, I think back on my days on owning a VPI Classic and then a VPI Prime and my having Yip of Mint Protractors fashion custom-made protractors for each of these decks and my many hours of sitting all bent over with eye to jewelers loop staring down horizontal twist among parallax channels and getting overhang on the exact spots of two grids and yet never hearing anything close to the level of sound I get now. Same cartridges, same phono stage, only my turntable/arm combination has changed. I kept thinking the answer had to be in perfect alignment when it was clearly everything else but.
Thoughts? I am sure I will get all kinds of flack. But for those that do tell me I am nuts, try my experiment sometime with a top-tier deck/arm combination and report back.
This is bizarre in a good way. If it were not for your introductory remarks, I would have sworn I wrote this. You see, I too have 30K in tubed electronics, two 15K decks, a Manley Steelhead, and DeVore O/93's and I too used to have a VPI Classic and then a Prime. I too had Yip fashion Mints for each of my two VPI decks and went through the pains of trying to maximize "twist" using YIP's parallax lines with a jeweler's loop. And I too have reached the same conclusions about overhang. One likely difference is that I have become a customer of Brian Walsh of ttsetup.com who uses computer software to optimize VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth. I regret ever wasting time with VPI arms. The unipivot with rotating bezel underhung counterweights is a mess. The counterweight and azimuth adjustment design is crude which is why Peter Lederman designed the "counter-intuitive". I regret ever falling for Harry and Mat's hype over the "dual pivot" which proved to be 50 cents worth of junk. Having well designed arms (Reed 3P's in my case) made vinyl pleasurable again. Even without Brian Walsh, I can-and did-get my a cartridges installed pretty damned close to optimum. Patience and a well-designed arm is far better than a perfect alignment gauge and a badly designed arm. |
Dear @millercarbon : """
Records are by far the best gateway drug into the world of high end audio. More and more people are turning to records because they hear the difference. """
From some time now I disagree with you. I can't deny that the LP analog alternative sounds really good, I own over 6K LPs. Very nice alternative to enjoy MUSIC.
Now, analog basic rig items has and have not any true/real technology improvements in the last 20+ years.
We all today are using the same kind of cartridges ( LOMC, MM, MI, etc. etc. ) that works exactly with the same principles in the design as when were invented: perhaps a little better stylus shapes and that's all, nothing really new.
Tonearms ( pivot ones. ) are even worst in new " technology " because exist some vintage tonearms that outperforms the best today tonearm designs and the same we can say about TTs.
No real/true improvements down there and even that sounds really good, very good experiences with. No doubt about.
In the other side and from some time now digital alternative had and still has ( almost every single day. ) true/real technology improvements that today permits this digital alternative outperforms the best analog/LP one no matters what ( everything the same conditions. ).
LP has 3 Achilles heel : RIAA eq., low output cartridges signal level and average quality sound levels at both frequency range extremes.
There are other analog disadvantages against the digital alternative.
I like to have my foots in a solid floor and not lie to my self.
In both mediums we can ejoy MUSIC.
R. |
Thanks you to all the responders to my question about the overhang. This is so incredible to get all this help from you all about this. That was all good information I got from this post, it sounds like for the short answer that I'm okay without using an overhang gauge, so long as stylus tip is set to protractor null points properly.
I'm really trying to get my turntable set up properly, and I've learned so much I didn't know in a short time about this.I just messed up a 100 dollar stylus I bought because I didn't have the right tonearm/cartridge alignment. An expensive mistake that I'm determined to not gonna let happen again. And I'm so dying to hear my records the right way again. Thanks so much for the help. |
Dear @millercarbon: ""
Mine is to help guys get set up and enjoying music. Not navel gazing and worrying and spending more on mounting the cartridge than on the cartridge itself. .........
Why not, instead of making it harder and harder, ...""
You can enjoy MUSIC with high or lower distortions, it's up to you. The main cartridge/tonearm set up parameter as the overhang we need to do it only one time till we change to other cartridge or other tonearm.
I posted here:
"
An accurated/precise cartridge/tonearm alignment is a must to have to mantain at minimum the tracking error and tracking distortions levels along the LP recorded surface during playback. "
that means lower distortion levels. If you can detect it or not that kind of distortions is another matters but for me first than all it's a must to do one time what I posted.
Where can you see that " harder and harder " when you do the job only one time?
R.
|
Some of you guys I think love word games even more than audio. One of the main things that makes turntables mysterious and difficult is all these silly little debates that it seems the world revolves around to you, but to any normal guy its nothing. Overhang is just like that. Technically yeah your spindle ref is more correct. To the average guy setting up a turntable it sure looks to him like he's adjusting the distance the stylus is from the tone arm pivot. Which he is. Exactly. Same thing with the cantilever/body thing. Yeah I know, look at the cantilever not the body. Even Peter Ledermann says so, and who am I to argue? He's right. Of course. Just one question: who's ever had a cartridge so whack this mattered? Actually I lied. Another question. If you set the cartridge down and the cantilever is cock-eyed, how can you be sure its the cantilever and not tone arm stiction causing that? Which if you care to look, golly, the same Peter Ledermann says to watch out for this. https://sound-smith.com/faq/how-do-i-set-my-cartridges-overhang-adjustmentStiction. See? I could go on and on with these all day. But that's your guys job. Mine is to help guys get set up and enjoying music. Not navel gazing and worrying and spending more on mounting the cartridge than on the cartridge itself. Records are by far the best gateway drug into the world of high end audio. More and more people are turning to records because they hear the difference. Even more would if they weren't so held back by it seeming so darn hard to understand. Why not, instead of making it harder and harder, just give em a hand? |
auliruegas... what needs to be straigth aligned with the lines in the protractor is the cantilever it self not the cartridge ... Agreed! That's why I think the use of a mirrored gauge is necessary for best results - using a reference mark on the gauge and the reflection of the cantilever itself to achieve tangency.
|
Dear @bilwojo : ""
Cartridge must be aligned straight in the headshel .."""
well, in reality what needs to be straigth aligned with the lines in the protractor is the cantilever it self not the cartridge.
R. |
Dear @yogiboy : Everything of the basic parameters in the cartridge/tonearm/TT set up is important to do it.
Any pivoted tonearm design has a tracking error due that can track/move it tangentially during play back, it's inherent to any pivot normal tonearm designs.
That that gentleman can't detect a different kind of sound in between those 3 cartridge headshell positions he mentioned does not means no one can detect it and does not means he is rigth because he is way wrong no matters what.
An accurated/precise cartridge/tonearm alignment is a must to have to mantain at minimum the tracking error and tracking distortions levels along the LP recorded surface during playback.
For detect overhang set up mistakes we need some kind of characteristics: very good to high room/system resolution, very good experienced " ears ", a " bullet proof " evaluation/comparison system overall process where we use always the same LP tracks ( several LP's. ).
I know I can detect an overhang set up mistake because I learned years ago just by accident: I mounted a cartridge 2-3mm additionals to the correct overhang and in my first listening LP's with that failure in the overhang set up I like what I was hearing till I took in count that something was wrong down there because even that the high frequency range was really good the other two frequency ranges were not.
So I check the set up and noted my error then fixed and problem solved.
@cleeds yes, we can detect it through the high frequency range but we have to have really very good training about.
I agree with that gentleman that our electronics or speakers or room develops higher distortion levels than the overhang levels but that does not means we can't detect it.
Now, could be that some peoplecan like what they are listening the more with overhang error that with the rigth overhang set up but this is another kind of matters.
R. |
yogiboy
What is your opinion about this statement from another audiogoner that was posted last year?
... the quality of the drive unit,
the quality of the tonearm, the quality of the cartridge and phono stage
and compatibility/setting of all these things (other than setting
overhang) and the setting of proper VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth are far
more important than worrying about how much arc-induced and overhang-
induced (the two are related) distortion one has. I learned this the
hard way. I will not go into details but please trust me ... Without some details, it's difficult to respond. I have experimented with simply
slamming a cartridge all the way forward in the headshell, placing the
cartridge mid-way along the headshell slots, and slammed all the way
back, each time re-setting VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth.
I would defy
anyone to pick out the differences.
Perhaps "slamming" is just a figure of speech here. I have 30K of tube separates, a
Manley Steelhead, and DeVore O/93’s. I submit that any differences in
distortion due to sub-optimum arcs and deviations from the two null
points and where they are located (those peaks in distortion) are masked
several times over by distortion imposed by my tubed gear and my
loudspeakers. Maybe he's right. I haven't heard his system. My point is that getting perfect
alignment is often, not always, like putting lipstick on a pig ... the answer had to be in perfect alignment when it was clearly
everything else but. You can measure the distortion caused my an improperly aligned phono cartridge and it can certainly be audible, although more with some LPs than with others. It's especially noticeable in the higher frequencies. But regardless of that, it's important to have proper alignment if you also seek minimum wear on the both the stylus and your LPs. |
@rauliruegas and @cleeds What is your opinion about this statement from another audiogoner that was posted last year? Vinyl heresy-overhang induced distortion is not that important I have learned and am of the opinion that the quality of the drive unit, the quality of the tonearm, the quality of the cartridge and phono stage and compatibility/setting of all these things (other than setting overhang) and the setting of proper VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth are far more important than worrying about how much arc-induced and overhang- induced (the two are related) distortion one has. I learned this the hard way. I will not go into details but please trust me-I am talking about my new ~15K of turntable components for the deck itself and excluding cartridge and phono stage. I have experimented with simply slamming a cartridge all the way forward in the headshell, placing the cartridge mid-way along the headshell slots, and slammed all the way back, each time re-setting VTF, VTA, SRA, and azimuth. I would defy anyone to pick out the differences. I have 30K of tube separates, a Manley Steelhead, and DeVore O/93’s. I submit that any differences in distortion due to sub-optimum arcs and deviations from the two null points and where they are located (those peaks in distortion) are masked several times over by distortion imposed by my tubed gear and my loudspeakers. To believe that your electronics and loudspeakers have less distortion than arc-induced distortion is unrealistic. I have heard startling dynamics, soundstaging, and detail with all three set-ups. It is outright fun to listen to and far preferable to my very good digital rig with all three set-ups. My point is that getting perfect alignment is often, not always, like putting lipstick on a pig, I think back on my days on owning a VPI Classic and then a VPI Prime and my having Yip of Mint Protractors fashion custom-made protractors for each of these decks and my many hours of sitting all bent over with eye to jewelers loop staring down horizontal twist among parallax channels and getting overhang on the exact spots of two grids and yet never hearing anything close to the level of sound I get now. Same cartridges, same phono stage, only my turntable/arm combination has changed. I kept thinking the answer had to be in perfect alignment when it was clearly everything else but. Thoughts? I am sure I will get all kinds of flack. But for those that do tell me I am nuts, try my experiment sometime with a top-tier deck/arm combination and report back. |
rauliruegasBtw, @cleeds :
Overhang is the distance between the center of
the TT spindle and the stylus tip settle by the protractor. It's that
small distance in between. Fair enough, although I think neither of us stated it perfectly clearly. ; |
Overhang is the small distance (about 16mm in the OP's case) that the stylus point "overhangs" the spindle. As I noted, the purpose of overhang (combined with offset) is to reduce tracking error.
Oddly, there are "underhung" arms, which while subject to greater tracking error, do minimize antiskating problems. Some users report excellent sound from them. I've never heard one, but I admit I'm curious.
|
If you have a removable headshell and use the protractor to set up your cartridge perfectly and are happy with the alignment than here is a tip.Measure from the end of the headshell seat, including the rubber ring to the stylus tip. Record that measurement.Now if you want to install another cartridge in another headshell just duplicate that measurement and your golden.
Note: Cartridge must be aligned straight in the headshell for this to work, if your cartridge is skewed at an angle it won't give you the proper alignment.This is the principle behind the cartridge overhang gauge that was provided with so many TT's.
BillWojo
|
Dear @peterhaze476 : No, you only need the protractor, no need an overhang device.
Btw, @cleeds :
""
Overhang is the distance between pivot and spindle, plus the amount that the stylus point actually "overhangs" beyond the spindle .."""
not exactly as you stated. Overhang is the distance between the center of the TT spindle and the stylus tip settle by the protractor. It's that small distance in between.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
|
millercarbonOverhang is the distance from the tip of the stylus to the vertical axis the tone arm pivots on. That’s completely mistaken. What you’ve described is the pickup arm’s effective length. Overhang is the distance between pivot and spindle, plus the amount that the stylus point actually "overhangs" beyond the spindle. The use of an overhung arm with a phono cartridge offset angle reduces tracking error and those two angles are the basis for the two null points. Your protractor will set overhang as it sets those null points. An overhang of around 16mm is common for a 9-inch arm. |
Overhang is the distance from the tip of the stylus to the vertical axis the tone arm pivots on. Yamaha manual is saying when pointed straight at the spindle the stylus should be 16mm. So that's your overhang gauge right there. Overhang is only part of alignment. Usually what people call a protractor is just a template with grid lines that fits over the spindle and lays on the platter. There's free ones you can download and print and use ordinary paper. They work fine. You just make sure to use the right one. To do that measure from the spindle to the same arm pivot point. The MoFi GeoDisk is a fancy version of the same thing. This is what I use, because it works great and makes it super easy. Step by step instructions are written right on it. The steps are the same regardless of what cartridge/arm/table or protractor you buy. So take a minute to read them, save yourself some money. https://www.turntablelab.com/products/mobile-fidelity-geo-disc-phono-cartridge-alignment-toolI have a tip that will save you some stress and make this even easier. Lay a Q-tip crosswise under the cartridge. This can save your cartridge from a fumble. |
Also, I got the turntable used, and I don’t have the original overhang gauge. If so, are they universal, or would I need to buy a specific type overhang gauge for my yamaha yp-b2 turntable.
Thanks |
