I mainly listen to classical and jazz - mostly trumpets and violins, with the occasional piano, viola or bass guitar. A couple of my friends have been suggesting to me that my ensemble lacks bass and having a subwoofer will address it. My setup includes a 2 ch. NAD C365BEE integrated amp, Wharfdale EVO 50 loudspeakers (pair), and an Oppo BDP 105 Bluray player as a CD player. The setup is in the living room, with three walls, and the fourth side open to the dining room. The living room itself would have been 18' L X 12' W X 18' H = 3888 cu. ft, but the fact that it opens up to the dining room makes the entire space more like 40' L X 18' W X 12' = 8540 cu. ft. Would I benefit from a subwoofer and which one should I get? Budget $1000 or close to that.
This is the problem with having no experience, along with the commitment to not get any because you think you're a scientist. All you do is list other people's opinions on stuff and select only the factual info that you think is important, while not addressing other issues because you simply don't know how to deal with them. The only science that applies in your case is psychology.
"But, in general the higher the low pass filter setting the easier it becomes to localize the sub."
"I've read many people say that the sub should not call attention to itself and you only realize it was in the system after you turn it off and miss its effects."
Pick one. In the first paragraph, you're telling him set the sub up so it can be localized. In the 3rd paragraph you're telling him to set it up so it can't be localized.
"Measuring will help you set it. My understanding is to set the phase control such that it maximizes the bass response. Doing so will let you turn the overall level down and give you some headroom; you are effectively taking advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers."
Maybe you should actually try it. The logic in that paragraph has more holes in it than a French Poodle that was hit with a 12 gauge shot gun. Give him some headroom? That implies that he has none to begin with. How do you know that?
"you are effectively taking advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers."
That doesn't even make sense. You take advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers? Scientist, my ass.
One interesting test I tried was to shut the main speakers off. This allowed me to independently test the effect of the subwoofers and adjust settings until I got what I liked the most. This was an useful test for me,
After talking to SVS support, I realized that the crossover was too high, and that phase apparently is not something I need to worry about. I learnt about localization. I still have my crossover high and I don't think it is that localized - I suppose every room is different and tastes differ as well, I am liking it with the crossover high at least with piano, as the low frequency piano notes are now a lot more audible and I like that. Not sure if this is the wrong thing to do but I am ignoring that advice.
I am getting my turntable back and will conduct some digital vs audio tests in the near future. Also, I am thinking of adding a tube phono stage to the setup - thinking of a Bellari VP 130 which has good reviews for bang for buck. Thoughts welcome.
Finally set everything up today. I was confused about the cables (got a single one from Blue Jeans, then had to order a Y adapter to connect to the stereo outputs). Also, you cannot connect this to Pre 1 on the NAD as there is a hard connection (bridge?) between that and Main, and no sound comes out of your front speakers if you take it out. NAD has a handy Pre 2 with a volume control on its own :) Having figured this out, next challenge was the settings on the sub itself. Initially, the presence was not felt or very minimal. I put the frequency to LFE, the Phase to the other end of 180 degrees (0 degrees ?), and the volume on both pre and sub to max. Now it is making its presence felt :) I can distinctly hear the bass guitars on it, much more pronounced than I ever have. This is precisely the aspect my friends had complained about, Current placement is left of left front speaker, pointing towards center of room where current listening position is. SVS recommends putting it in the corner of the room, which I can also try. For the moment, I am happy, but I will need to keep tweaking and start measuring. I also changed the cables between the Oppo and the NAD amp with a Blue Jeans stereo cable, separately, and that had already improved the sound level at least. I am now a believer in subs and am already looking forward to a second! Also, I am wondering if an audiophile grade rack (not a bank breaker) would further improve anything. I need a new rack for better organization, but was wondering about an audio one. Thoughts welcome,
The build quality is fantastic - beyond my expectations. it's heavy too. I ordered the piano black finish by the way. Will let you know how it sounds after cables arrive.
Quick update - subwoofer arrived along with "reference" music. Reference music was a huge disappointment. Had to go back to my Bill Evans Waltz for Debby hi-res from HDTracks. Cable not here yet so cannot set subwoofer up but just one comment - it is much bigger than I thought it would be, and I'm glad I did not order the SB12 Plus Ultra, as it would have probably resulted in divorce papers :)
For some reason, you're not fully reading my posts. You're picking and choosing to come up with replies that sound reasonable.
"The OP said in a previous post that he has moved past the subwoofer issue. He's further up the frequency range now. Besides, nothing I said would preclude the use of a sub."
The OP said in his previous posts that he had a lack of bass. He was able to work with what he currently has and has been at least, partially successful, if not more so. What would be the reason for recommending a small, bookshelf type speaker?
"Neutral sound is not the goal of all speaker manufacturers. Some are designed to boost bass, others roll off the treble early, some are single driver designs that can never be neutral. This should be obvious to you."
Fine. Give me some examples?
"I didn't say the dealer was wrong. I said I would not put any merit in his comment implying that a CD player is inherently better than a BR player. Others might; maybe you do. I can have opinions about all sorts of things. If I didn't you'd have nothing to complain about."
About the merit issue, fair enough. I thought you were talking in absolute terms. About having an opinion, I was just stating a fact. If you have never listened to any particular component, you can't have an opinion on how it sounds. That's just a fact. It applies to everything, myself included.
"I'm not sure what I've done to bug you so much, but this is just an open forum for folks to express opinions and share information. Maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously or personally. Surely you have something better to do with your time."
I get that, and I apologize for taking such a direct tone. But I find some of your recommendations very frustrating. Its like you read a bunch of stuff on audio but don't have any real experience applying it. Don't take that the wrong way, though. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, its just how it looks from reading your posts. I'll also admit, that I may take certain things seriously. But its just because I hate to see people make many of the same, expensive mistakes that I've made myself. I know what I'm doing now, but it was a long, costly journey to get here.
All, I welcome everyone's opinions and they all have been very helpful to me. In fact, I have been re-reading this post over and over as it has a lot of useful content. I have learnt a lot from this discussion and it has clarified my ideas. I intent to put a couple more observations after getting the sub and then we can call this a day. Thanks to everyone for their time. SG
"If the sound of your piano is what you're after, then you might consider studio monitors."
I have no idea how you came up with that one. Given the OP's goal to getting more bass out of his system, why would you suggest a small speaker? It doesn't make any sense. They won't be able to play the lowest notes on a piano. Going that route would be taking a big step backwards.
"They typically are designed to be neutral."
As opposed to what? Who designs speakers to not be neutral?
"I would not put any merit in the dealer's comment about your Oppo player versus a CD player."
How do you know that the dealer is wrong? You could very easily say that its your comment has no merit. There's several reasons why you would want buy a CD player over the Oppo. Unless you did some side by side comparisons, you're guessing again. You can't have opinions on components you've never listened to.
"Good advice Zd. Can you explain what you mean by a reference system?"
Listen to as many systems as you can, and pick one that you could live with for a long time. Then use that system as a template/reference in building yours. Basically, you're setting goals.
ordered a few of the CDs mentioned in that earlier post. Will let you guys know if they sound any better on my system than the previous ones I mentioned.
I am seriously considering tape at this point :) (partly joking) I found a recording studio mentioned in that link in my post earlier that will actually make them as custom orders - at $125 each! I wonder if the sound on tape would be better than on CD and what tape players are now available. Interestingly, my NAD player has tape inputs.
I am also looking to change the connector between my Oppo blu ray player and the amp, to eliminate that from the question. It is a cheap connector. I will try the blu jeans place,. I spoke to an audio store near where I live. The guy is quirky but has been in business for a while. He suggested not using a blu ray player but rather going with a CD player. This may be worth trying if the Oppo is giving it a digital sound. I am also getting my Music Hall MMF 2.1 turntable fixed by him so I can compare the same recording from both aspects (assuming the recording exists on vinyl as well). This will tell me if the digital aspect of the setup is the issue.
Good advice Zd. Can you explain what you mean by a reference system? Do you mean an equipment setup put together by a dealer, for example, that is able to reproduce the sound the way I like it? I can try a local dealer that is willing to do that. I also need to find a piano recording that can be used in such a reference system, or even my own. By doing so, I would eliminate the effect of a poor recording. If you know of one, please let me know. I thought of contacting hdtracks.com to see if they will even respond to this question.
Piano is one of the most difficult tasks that you can ask of your audio system. It goes beyond just having a system that is full range.
"I had my son play on a real piano alongside. This additionally confirmed that the notes from the system sound artificial. It may be that the system itself is not effective in this area - the mid level drivers are the ones that seem to be used."
That's a very good test. But I would recommend being cautious about upgrading here. To get things like timbre on a piano correct, is something that will take some work. You're not going to fix it with some well placed room tunes or switching to a speaker with different midrange drivers. You'll need to be comfortable moving into areas that go beyond specs. And that means you will be selecting components based on your experience while listening to them, and little else.
Before you do anything, I would recommend you seek a reference system. Find a system that will reproduce a piano to whatever standard that makes you happy. The reason for this, is so you can see if what you are asking for is even possible, and can be done at a price you can afford. I know that very few people do it this way because its a lot more work, and they would rather just go by reviews and opinion. But you will save yourself from making a ton of mistakes, by doing everything yourself.
Sorry about the shot in the dark. Grateful anyway. The piano reproduction in my setup is the worst of the lot. I have always suspected it but for the past couple of days I have focused on playing solo piano pieces and find the sound to be artificial. I don't know if it's the reproduction or the recording. I don't know if you know of a high quality solo piano recording I can try, I tried Artur Rubenstein Chopin, Vladimir Ashkenazy Bach, and a audiophile high res download of Bill Evans Waltz for Debby. I had my son play on a real piano alongside. This additionally confirmed that the notes from the system sound artificial. It may be that the system itself is not effective in this area - the mid level drivers are the ones that seem to be used.
My room has all hard surfaces. The furniture is all leather. There are no drapes - just blinds.
I will surely read all the articles. I have been reading in all my spare hours and switching from article to article.
One thing I am curious about is why my setup responds so well to high-pitched instruments such as violins and trumpets, which sound really loud and lush, whereas solo piano sounds a lot more muted. With the former, I can barely push the volume up more than a quarter way, or wife complains, With solo piano, I went up to max volume and it did sound loud then, but the loudness was a lot less pronounced and the sound jars a little. The mid level speakers are the main ones that seem to be pushed in this case. Is it normal for piano to be less loud than other instruments.
I do notice a difference between standing and sitting. In fact, I now listen standing up, at that aforementioned 4 ft away position.
I will certainly take you up on the cables - I ordered a garden variety on Amazon but can return that.
I noticed that Ethan Winer is based in CT - Cool! I am only a state away in MA. Are you the jazz saxophonist Bob Reynolds who I see on Wikipedia? If so, I am impressed and even more grateful for your time.
The 4 ft separation is the best I can achieve given my room, I ran into space issues with my furniture and a fireplace on one side. The important things I did was to bring my speakers out far enough in front such that there is nothing barging into the sound (such as a sofa that partly impeded the sound cone, if you will - I am referring to the area the sound may emit into). I then angled them more towards each other (say roughly 35 degrees from the center line). If I stand roughly 4-5 feet from the speakers on the horizontal straight dividing them, or closer, I get outstanding soundstage, which varies as I walk close to the speakers in in interesting way. If I walk back further than 4-5 feet, there is a drop in soundstage. I am trying to adjust the angle now to bring the sweet spot closer to my sitting position, which is a good 9.5 feet away from where the speakers are at the moment. I am ordering a SPL meter to make this a little more scientific - saw a product named Galaxy Audio CM 140 on Amazon. This is cool stuff.
I just have to add this because I'm THIRLLED. There is a sweet spot that can be achieved. I have found it by moving things around - speakers, furniture, myself. Having found it, I am going through my collection - Bach - Julia Fischer, Hilary Hahn; Barber, Corigliano. Chris Botti. Everything sounds AMAZING. This is what I have been pursuing for a while. I am in HEAVEN.
I have been standing in the middle of the room, about 4 ft away from the speakers, dancing in delight :) Ordinarily, I would sit 8-10 feet away on my couch. I could adjust them a little I suppose, to accommodate the normal listening position.
I ordered a SV2000 subwoofer right now and will let you know how that improves the situation!
Bob, I did check that I am using the dedicated stereo outputs on the Oppo. Those are separate outputs entirely from the 7.1, so there is no room for confusion.
I adjusted my speaker positions around until the zone they transmit to overlap further. Also, brought the speakers further in front and closer to each other - roughly 4 feet apart. I also re-checked the connector between the Oppo and the NAD and reset the Oppo settings back to their defaults.
Result was MAGICAL. Fullness of sound TRIPLED. Soundstage QUADRUPLED (just saying - not based on actual measurement).
Based upon the current situation, I don't think I need another amp. I am getting the effect I want at a quarter of the full volume.
I don't even know if a sub is required, but I will definitely give it a try to see if there is a further effect.
ZD, I believe the connections are in phase - I checked them. I rechecked the Oppo settings and changed two - one said Stereo down-mixed which I changed to Front 1-2, and the other said Crossover 80 Hz which I changed to 40. Other than that, I did not see anything worth changing. I think these made a difference in the fullness of sound, but could not be completely sure. I need a way to measure that.
Bob, Sprks, I completely agree that I need to figure out the room correction and measurement aspect before I make any changes. I am concerned that even with my current setup, which is not shabby (I think), I am not getting enough out of it. The suggestions you made will help me get there.
Others, I am open, even excited, about getting a sub and a better amp - after optimizing my current situation a little more`- and need some more guidance on the amp front. I need to determine whether I should go integrated or separate pre-power. I also need some opinions on the brand I can get without breaking my bank (3K) and would to consider something other than a NAD. I once demo-ed a MF M6i integrated which I really liked, driving Paradigm Studio 60s - thought it more musical than an Anthem integrated 225 I was comparing with. I could also consider a Krell 550i as I read good things about it. Beyond that, I am unsure what else to consider, especially when going separate.
Can you take an M series amp home for trial? I'd suggest you at least try it for a weekend if you can. I am not saying it works...but at least you have gone well up the NAD range to see...and if you get the right result...you can determine which NAD amp you can afford (and whether it will be enough).
I do think the sub is also definitely worth a trial...any sub.
ZD ....Pullllese.....My speakers are 5A's.....enough jest. Richard and I spoke at length about subs, and for the vast number of 5.1 systems, almost any sub (a couple of hundred dollars worth) is fine. Yes, subs are valuable in that they allow the regular speakers and amps to work without that extra load of lows. I have a separate 5.1 system in a different room than my "big" system. It is a Denon AVR X3100 with NHT floor standing speakers...with zone 2 connected to two speakers in every room of the house. It can show me what speakers are working, and generally, unless I am showing a movie with colliding railway trains, or bombs, the sub Isn't even working. (control is by Audyssy (spelling??). My sub is an Outlaw Audio set in a corner of the room, and it can shake the house when those bombs explode...and my room is quite large
Make absolutely sure that you have your speaker cables connected in phase.
Also make sure that your Oppo is set up to play in 2 channel mode, and not something else like 5 channels.
Try removing the jumpers on the back of your NAD and run interconnects from the output on your Oppo going directly into the amp section of the NAD. Listen to the system and use the volume control on the Oppo.
I need to add the following observations on my situation and ask a few more questions. I am testing a variety of music on my current setup and my observation is that the bass drivers on my speakers are hardly being driven, even with bass heavy punchy songs. I tried to turn the volume up to see the effect that had - the other drivers reacted a lot more than the bass driver. Turning the bass control on the amp increased the bass but not in a satisfactory way - the sound was muffled.
First - I would like to ask (apologies if this is getting repetitive) if this is due to the amplifier- to remind everyone, this is a NAD C375BEE integrated amplifier, at 80W per channel.
Second - my Wharfdale EVO 50s continue to satisfy me at the high end but are practically non-existent at the lower end. Is this a speaker issue? Does anyone have experience with these particular speakers? Should I consider replacing the speakers to get the full sound I seek?
Third - if this is an amp issue and adding a power amplifier to this setup and using my integrated as a preamp is the way to go, can I go with a NAD C275BEE, which is a power amp at 150W per channel? Will that be good enough or do I need to go higher such as a NAD M series? How high should I go to see a distinct difference in the fullness of the sound I want?
A better amp will do very little to fill that room. Find the best sub you can for the money and then get another. Learn all you can about eq's, room correction and time delay.
Thank you all for taking the time to help me out. The inputs give me a few things to think about and will help me make a suitable decision. I am inclined to try out a couple of scenarios before I make my decision, based upon the inputs provided. This has been an enjoyable read. I appreciate everyone's help and hope to have a solidly punchy and bassy musical holiday season! Cheers all!
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
