"However, I am leaning towards taking a risk with the Hsu VTF 15H. Not sure if this is the right thing to do. Any help is welcome."
Don't get them both at the same time. Do the amp first, as it may have an effect on what sub you choose. Also, you may find that you don't need a sub with the added power. |
"The setup is in the living room, with three walls, and the fourth side open to the dining room. The living room itself would have been 18' L X 12' W X 18' H = 3888 cu. ft, but the fact that it opens up to the dining room makes the entire space more like 40' L X 18' W X 12' = 8540 cu. ft. Would I benefit from a subwoofer and which one should I get?"
I would first get a more powerful amp for your main speakers given the size of your room. You're NAD is good in that it jumps the amp and preamp section externally using rca jacks. It can be used just as a preamp. For subs, I would consider getting 2 small powered subs that are designed for music and not HT. |
"11-30-14: Bob_reynolds
Since music is the priority, a sealed cabinet would more likely be a better choice. And there is no reason to get a power amp. You do not want to drive your main speakers more -- this only creates more distortion."
No offence, but that's silly. There's more to audio than reading a spec sheet. And in this case, you're guessing in order to fill in the blanks. In the real world, you're far more likely to get a speaker to distort by under powering it. The OP has a big room and his current amp, while of good quality, is not all that powerful. If a speaker has to be driven harder than normal because the room is big, its far safer to do it with a more powerful amp. You'll get less distortion, not more. (Unless, of course, you're foolish enough to push the system so hard, it starts to break up. After reading the OP's comments, I really don't think that will be a factor here.)
Take into consideration also, that driving the OP's current speakers to their potential, will make it much easier to integrate a sub. The integration works both ways. Just as you can push an amp and speakers into distortion, the same can happen with a subwoofer and the amp that powers it. In fact, you're much more likely to have a distortion problem with the sub, as opposed to the main speakers. |
"11-30-14: Bob_reynolds
ZD,
In the real world, you're far more likely to get a speaker to distort by under powering it.
You may be confusing the fact that you are more likely to damage a speaker by driving it with an under powered amp since you can drive the amp into clipping more easily. I assure you the driver will distort less at 65dB versus 80dB."
I'm not confusing either. That's why I put this in my last post.
"(Unless, of course, you're foolish enough to push the system so hard, it starts to break up. After reading the OP's comments, I really don't think that will be a factor here.)"
I think its a given that if you turn your system up really loud, it will probably distort at some point. Also, you are doing some guessing.
"Unfortunately, they don't quote an SPL level and distance, but it's likely 85 dB at 1 meter. This tells me that, as is typically the case, too much of the budget went into the cabinet and not the drivers to meet the price point. The distortion could double by 150 Hz and double again by 75 Hz and again by 30 Hz. You will be better off taking the bass load off of these speakers."
That, and the 2 other references are general and not about the OP's equipment. And that's really where your argument fails. Look at this, as well.
"Distortion created by a driver increases with level; just consider the heat. This is common sense, it certainly isn't silly and I'm not guessing. Distortion also increases as frequency decreases. Again, I'm not guessing; it's a fact.
In fact, you're much more likely to have a distortion problem with the sub, as opposed to the main speakers.
Now, that's just silly. You can't seriously believe that a 6.5" driver is going to distort less than a 12" driver when asked to reproduce a 40 Hz signal at 85dB.
That's exactly the problem with driving the majority of speakers full range (they are not designed for it). Speakers using crossovers use high pass filters on their tweeters and on their mid range drivers (if it's a 3-way design). It only makes sense to high pass the woofer when adding a subwoofer (effectively creating a 4-way design)."
In all this, you're missing the most important issues. Quality of the components going into the speakers, the design of the speakers, and the build quality and power rating of the amp. So going back to your example of using a 6.5" driver for a sub over a 12" driver as being silly, may not be the case. If you take a high quality 6.5" driver and put it into a well designed enclosure and power it with a very powerful, high quality amp, there's no reason why it can't outperform a lesser 12" driver with a low quality, low power amp. Not too many people use 6.5" drivers in subs, but there are many examples of 8" designs on the market that easily outperform 12" and 15" subs. |
"12-02-14: Stringreen
You don't have to spend that much....subs are not that critical."
Not for you. lol. But the OP doesn't have a pair of Vandersteen 5's. |
Make absolutely sure that you have your speaker cables connected in phase.
Also make sure that your Oppo is set up to play in 2 channel mode, and not something else like 5 channels.
Try removing the jumpers on the back of your NAD and run interconnects from the output on your Oppo going directly into the amp section of the NAD. Listen to the system and use the volume control on the Oppo. |
Piano is one of the most difficult tasks that you can ask of your audio system. It goes beyond just having a system that is full range.
"I had my son play on a real piano alongside. This additionally confirmed that the notes from the system sound artificial. It may be that the system itself is not effective in this area - the mid level drivers are the ones that seem to be used."
That's a very good test. But I would recommend being cautious about upgrading here. To get things like timbre on a piano correct, is something that will take some work. You're not going to fix it with some well placed room tunes or switching to a speaker with different midrange drivers. You'll need to be comfortable moving into areas that go beyond specs. And that means you will be selecting components based on your experience while listening to them, and little else.
Before you do anything, I would recommend you seek a reference system. Find a system that will reproduce a piano to whatever standard that makes you happy. The reason for this, is so you can see if what you are asking for is even possible, and can be done at a price you can afford. I know that very few people do it this way because its a lot more work, and they would rather just go by reviews and opinion. But you will save yourself from making a ton of mistakes, by doing everything yourself. |
"Good advice Zd. Can you explain what you mean by a reference system?"
Listen to as many systems as you can, and pick one that you could live with for a long time. Then use that system as a template/reference in building yours. Basically, you're setting goals. |
"If the sound of your piano is what you're after, then you might consider studio monitors."
I have no idea how you came up with that one. Given the OP's goal to getting more bass out of his system, why would you suggest a small speaker? It doesn't make any sense. They won't be able to play the lowest notes on a piano. Going that route would be taking a big step backwards.
"They typically are designed to be neutral."
As opposed to what? Who designs speakers to not be neutral?
"I would not put any merit in the dealer's comment about your Oppo player versus a CD player."
How do you know that the dealer is wrong? You could very easily say that its your comment has no merit. There's several reasons why you would want buy a CD player over the Oppo. Unless you did some side by side comparisons, you're guessing again. You can't have opinions on components you've never listened to. |
Bob_reynolds,
For some reason, you're not fully reading my posts. You're picking and choosing to come up with replies that sound reasonable.
"The OP said in a previous post that he has moved past the subwoofer issue. He's further up the frequency range now. Besides, nothing I said would preclude the use of a sub."
The OP said in his previous posts that he had a lack of bass. He was able to work with what he currently has and has been at least, partially successful, if not more so. What would be the reason for recommending a small, bookshelf type speaker?
"Neutral sound is not the goal of all speaker manufacturers. Some are designed to boost bass, others roll off the treble early, some are single driver designs that can never be neutral. This should be obvious to you."
Fine. Give me some examples?
"I didn't say the dealer was wrong. I said I would not put any merit in his comment implying that a CD player is inherently better than a BR player. Others might; maybe you do. I can have opinions about all sorts of things. If I didn't you'd have nothing to complain about."
About the merit issue, fair enough. I thought you were talking in absolute terms. About having an opinion, I was just stating a fact. If you have never listened to any particular component, you can't have an opinion on how it sounds. That's just a fact. It applies to everything, myself included.
"I'm not sure what I've done to bug you so much, but this is just an open forum for folks to express opinions and share information. Maybe you shouldn't take it so seriously or personally. Surely you have something better to do with your time."
I get that, and I apologize for taking such a direct tone. But I find some of your recommendations very frustrating. Its like you read a bunch of stuff on audio but don't have any real experience applying it. Don't take that the wrong way, though. I'm not saying that's definitely the case, its just how it looks from reading your posts. I'll also admit, that I may take certain things seriously. But its just because I hate to see people make many of the same, expensive mistakes that I've made myself. I know what I'm doing now, but it was a long, costly journey to get here. |
This is the problem with having no experience, along with the commitment to not get any because you think you're a scientist. All you do is list other people's opinions on stuff and select only the factual info that you think is important, while not addressing other issues because you simply don't know how to deal with them. The only science that applies in your case is psychology.
"But, in general the higher the low pass filter setting the easier it becomes to localize the sub."
"I've read many people say that the sub should not call attention to itself and you only realize it was in the system after you turn it off and miss its effects."
Pick one. In the first paragraph, you're telling him set the sub up so it can be localized. In the 3rd paragraph you're telling him to set it up so it can't be localized.
"Measuring will help you set it. My understanding is to set the phase control such that it maximizes the bass response. Doing so will let you turn the overall level down and give you some headroom; you are effectively taking advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers."
Maybe you should actually try it. The logic in that paragraph has more holes in it than a French Poodle that was hit with a 12 gauge shot gun. Give him some headroom? That implies that he has none to begin with. How do you know that?
"you are effectively taking advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers."
That doesn't even make sense. You take advantage of the room by not destructively interfering with the main speakers? Scientist, my ass. |
