I think I still heard some additional changes to the last set of RCA's I added last Friday night, last evening when I came back to the system. Sounded bigger/larger fuller sound stage again last night. Huge and open in fact, as in real life. Frankly, scary good. I still have to work on adding ref RCA's and standard RCA's to my preamp and BD player as well as PS Audio PWD DAC to see how those go. I have on order a couple that came in to you that were shipped yesterday but Galen should be sending you another order today as there was a mistake in quantity of the ref and standard RCA's as I needed one more of each. I want a full, final, complement on hand to review and determine in/out finally makes it all work otherwise its hit/miss with taking some out to move to another location as there could have been an additional synergistic approach I might have been missing.
It seems in my system adding ref/standard to each component improves the large, full sound stage presentation preserving the detail with the reference GC on the same component. I hope that holds true for the final assault for the last order coming through I hope you could ship today to come on Thursday or so, so I can begin to make some final judgements this weekend. Anyway, these are really superb devices and do fly in the face of reason (For those non-technical folk out there like myself). But they are just becoming "I can no longer live without" devices along with my Walker Audio Reference + HDL's that just makes such a huge difference it is quite shocking and amazing. Your original versions work so much better, for me at least, than the competitor model it was quite a surprise. They all worked to one degree or another, but not to the degree the reference/standard combination has for my system.
To completely stabilize, in my system, about 6 to 7 hours, but then my system is already full of the things and has been for three years. 72 hours wouldn't worry me, but I might become impatient....
Vet93,
Yes they will still work. Maybe better maybe worse. There are just too many variables in individual systems for me to say something absolute. I will point out that they have a money back guarantee return policy. Just send them back within 30 days. I would suggest you start with a pair of Standard lug GC's for your speakers. If that provides something you like then slowly investigate additional GC's until you are satisfied.
This sounds like an interesting product. But I am putting a 8' ground rod and connect it to the chassis of the preamp. Will my system still benefit from AP GC?
Bud, how many cycles do you believe it takes to stabalize? I seem to get the final settle in around the 3rd day or so. 6 moons seemed to have the same effect, around 72 hours or so.
I had a similar effect with my EVS as well. Mine sounded bright and grainy compared to my AP's. Bud is absolutely correct on the permutations with the AP versions as I heard this effect clearly Friday night and Saturday after installing my next set of AP's. I bought 3 standard RCA's to place on my unused amp inputs, reference HT receiver and found they did just that. Now, they have stabalized. I have placed an order for 3 ref RCA's and 2 more standard RCA's to play with adding in tandem to my receiver to add some detail that seemed to spread out and also to my preamp and go from there.
The "glare" is actually the ground devices charging. It takes a number of charge and discharge cycles before they stabilize, no matter who makes them. The Ground Control devices show a pronounced slant to high frequencies and a distinct narrowing of sound stage at first. Over about a 3 hour period this "uptight" character will collapse into ever more detail and stage width and then squeeze back into the uptight character. Each cycle takes longer than the one before and when finished they are always wide, even and clear.
Yeah, I had the ref GC's on my speakers a pair per speaker for bi-wire and bi-amp prior to insalling my first walkers on the upper posts. Loved 'em. Added the walkers on the upper posts and - wow. then, just added the walkers on the bass posts on wed night. they are breaking in now. Initially, whole system went totally dark and lacking definition. Typical of the first insert of the walkers as I experienced the same thing until after a few hours when they began to break in. Now, lightening and tightening up by the hour. I am immensely satisfied and still have at least 10 hours to go for the walkers to break in (total min 20 hours according to Walker). I just ordered some standard RCA's for this weekend which should arrive by tomorrow I am guessing. Should be interesting to add to amp/receiver/preamp areas one at a time once the walkers break in.
You are 100% correct these things are so system dependent. I did not have quite the glare you speak of with the refs, but I did with the EVS ones which are going back to Ric today via UPS. They created an immense glare at first for about 2 days on my systme then settled down but were fuzzy sounding compared tot he ultimate clarity I received with the ref GC's on my speakers.
This is an abject lesson to all reading - you gotta try these in all types and places to see how they work on your system. Everyone will be different.
Oddeophile, Good thing you did'nt sell your GC's Ref when you were thinking of getting the GE's.
I have only used the GE's on my Home theatere system. Except, I do however have one GC Ref RCA on my surround receiver and it seems to work well there.
My 2 channel system has all standard GC's. I will state that I had the GC's Ref in both spades and RCA's and they did not sound very good with my system. It was too much upper midrange/treble glare along with a shrunken soundstage. So, I only use the Standard GC's. I'm thinking that your combo of the GC Ref's + Walker links is what is making the sound connection for you. Have you tried just the GC ref's without the Walker links?
Anyway, just goes to show that everyones system is different and experiment is the key.
P.S. I also tried Bud's simple 2 foot loop wire trick and it also worked pretty good . About 50% of what the GC's provide.
As a note, this last week, I obtained several samples of the GE from EVS and installed them into my system. Previously, I have been using the reference GC on both the low freq and mid/high freq posts on my 4 main speakers along with Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's in my HT and one on my center speaker (note - as of this writing, my CC does not have the ref GC on it pending receipt of some Cardas banana adaptors to allow for its reinstallation as I also have Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's on this and can not fit all of them on the CC posts at present. I hope to have the Cardas adaptors tomorrow evening to reinstall the ref GC along with the HDL).
The results were extremely impressive with the ref GC on my system. No image truncation in any plane. In fact, it remained static in size from before installation but the image specificity, clarity, removal of grunge, grit and grain, dynamic color, instrumental color, vividness and "you are there in the room with the action/music/musicions" was incredibly precise in any plane horizontal and vertical providing an immensely satisfying sonic result to film and BD audio high def discs.
Late last week, I received a set of the competitor models and hooked them in place of my ref GC's on my speakers after removing the ref GC's. I also hooked them on my amp outputs. Immediately, I was not happy with the results at all. The remaining superb benefits of the Walker HDL's remained but suddenly I lost all image precision I had enjoyed, a haze and grit ensued as if a blanket had been thrown over the soundfield and it became diffuse. After two days of installation to break in, not much changed.
Later, I found out my amp has floating outputs, not negative grounded so I removed them from the amp. Things improved a great deal and almost all of the grit/grain'haze disappeared but some haze and diffuse imaging remained. I lost the incredible spotlighting localization the ref GC's provided. It was as if someone turned out the lights on the system and I was in the dark, to a greater degree, again. Out went the competitor GE's and back in the ref GC's went.
Bang! Everything I found absolutely entrancing with the Walker Audio Reference Plus HDL's + ref GC's returned. I realized I can not live without this combination ever again.
I should note that I will be installing the Walker Audio Ref + HDL's on the woofer posts of the 4 main speakers tomorrow night along with the currently employed reference GC's and fully expect an improvement over what I have gained now, according to what I have read from W/A and others that use the HDL's in bi-wire/bi-amp applications. The bass is enhanced where one would not expect so in cleaning up ultrasonic garbage entering the speaker cables. This should prove most interesting as I am extremely happy so far.
I have ordered some standard GC RCA's for my amp RCA unused inputs and one for my reference HT receiver to see how they work on that end. I did note the competitor model GE's did NOT increase my soundstage further from the reference GC's, it remained static in size, nor did the GE's truncate the soundstage, either.
I understand I am somewhat of an anomaly so far in the competitor models. Please note that I did not find them, after they broke in my my speakers after about 36 hours or more, to be bad per se. And, if I probably had heard them without trying the ref GC's I would have found their improvement, over the system without them, to be very positive. It is just once I have had the immense pleasure of the reference GC's on my speakers they are, for my system and my listening sensibilities, the sin quo non with the Walker Audio's in tandem. There is, on my system, a synergistic and cumulative relationship that is most desireable and immensely satisfying, as of today.
Lastly, let me restate - this is my system and my results. They may very well be very different from the improvement other systems may provide. So, this is in no way a negative review or consideration of either product. I just want to be clear they were good, very good, in their own right.
I have two more sets of standard GC wrapped up for Christmas to add to the bass of my Martin Logans and to my amp. December 26th, I will be in my soundroom all day, can't wait.
I will report back after that with my findings. As already stated, I have a set on the stator panels already which did an amazing job of improving things.
I tried the EVS and they did not work anywhere near as effectively as the reference GC's I have on my speakers, now. I am, so far, the only one to have a not-so-positive situation with the EVS GE's. That means nothing, though, to anyone else, as everything with either the EVS or AP is system dependent. I am only reporting so folks can get a balanced idea, not to knock any of the designs between the two mfrs.
So far, the AP ref GC's on all of my speakers has provided an immensely satisfying experience with immensely focused sound stage, wide open, clean, clear and removal of haze/grunge so much so that it is startling at times.
Note, too, I recently added the superb Walker Reference Plus HDL's to my speakers along with the AP reference GC's. These definitely work synergistically/cumulatively as they work in a totally different fashion in the application. With both, the noise floor just dropped into total blackness, speakers completely gone in my room, left with a super clean, clear multi channel image without any glaze, grunge or high frequency glare. I was, frankly, totally amazed. What I previously thought was a totally clean, hash/grain free background I found was not at all. Not until I finally added the Walker Audio's to the equation along with the AP GC's. I still have to add a set of the Walkers to the woofers in the bi-wire and bi-amp application on 4 speakers later this week. I am told that it is a suprising difference where one would not expect a change but is rather large in terms of bass definition, speed and dynamics as well. I am looking forward to that soon.
I just ordered as standard set of GC's for my amp and receiver amp outputs to see how they balance with the refs on my speakers. This should be interesting.
What this all proves is these doggoned things are immensely system dependent. Some folks found no change with the AP but found large changes with the EVS. Others, with both. Mine, no go on the EVS but AP is two thumbs up. This proves Bud's point that you really need to try them and see how they will work in differing places in your system.
Just as it should. Keep in mind that we are fooling around with a fairly Hi Q manipulation of some very subtle field effects. Anything that you do to increase surface area vs dielectric material in that wire loop will have an effect upon the sound. Heck, just removing the plastic knob from you speaker terminals will have an audible effect. Not all of these will be "beneficial".
Reference Lacee Inquiry about DIY Ground Control. Yes, 5-7/8 inch loop of multi-stranded cable works fine. Seems to have benefit (more or less) on various components.
For your first pair, I would recommend that you get the Standard Ground Control and put them on your midrange. Then another pair for your woofer.
With that experience you could try a pair of Reference at your amplifier terminals, keeping in mind that you will have 30 days to evaluate them. You can then move the GC's around to see how they affect your system differently.
I am waiting to get mine Audioprism, according to manufacturer, speakers provide the most effect and next is the cd. Does anyone know if you have a speakers like the Verity with monitor and woofer in separate cabinet and connected by jumpers, should I connect the GC to the woofer unit or monitor unit.
Received 3 sets yesterday of the EVS Ground Enhancers.
These look very similar to the Ground Controls except without the spades or bananas. Mine have just a straight wire that I placed into the hole on my speaker spade lugs.
I am using these Ground Enhancers on my Home theater system along with several of the Ground Controls.
Well, immediately I noticed much more presence in the surround channels along with more weight and definition.
Thus far, I consider EVS Ground Enhancers to be the equal in sound improvement to the Audioprism Ground Controls.
Agreed. Something I plan on in the upcoming months. Over the past 3 days my reference GC's on my speakers (I had to obtain 4.5 pairs since I bi-wire and bi-amp my main front and rear speakers) have continued to improve and now have pintpoint clear clean imaging that has blown me away so far. I plan on doing some critical listening on well known material this weekend. For now, I have heard some things that are striking and very welcome. No negative affects at all. All positive. When was the last time you picked up a tweak that was all positive??!!
In my set up there was no question the addition of the second GC for the woofers on the main speakers added to the improvement. I have heard of some folks with mixed results - some feeling not needed while others agree with what I am hearing there was a discontinuity between the frequencies near the crossover where it was clearly audible what had been improved on the upper drivers vs. the woofers. Adding the additional reference GC to the woofers and voila'! Almost instant improvement.
So far, so good and color me happy. More to follow of course as I get a chance to really listen to some well known material compared to what I have had time to deal with so far the past few nights.
I do feel there is additional improvement over time beyond the one hour break in, however. At least to me last night seemed somewhat smoother, more detailed and relexed even over what I heard the second night (night before).
Oddeophile, So far, I like the effect with using both the standard and the ref RCA's on my Cary Pro. But, having both the ref and standard on hand to try in different places is a plus.
Thanks Ozzy. One thing I don't really need in my system is sound stage increase at least in width as it is wall to wall now. If it increased further it might diffuse the sound stage too much. I may try a set of the standard GC's here down the road for the amp end to see how that works.
How did the Cary Pro 306 work out using both ref and standard RCA GC's on it?
Oddeophile, The Ref will not limit or reduce the soundstage , but the standard will increase it. The Ref seem to add more center presence and more detail. I prefer the standards, but that is just me with my equipment. Sometime though, you should try a set of the standards for your own reference,
I havent tried using the RCA Ref & Standard GC's together on anything but my Cary Pro 306.
Ozzy, got the ref banana's yesterday. These are a mother to install... tight as heck. But, after 2 hours of burn in they seem to definitely improve the soundield and as of my initial review so far do not seem to limit sound field or dynamics. But, this is preliminary at this point. I will do a full on test on Friday night when I have time to spend with full blu-ray hi def, etc. However, I did note cleaner, more detailed mids and high end in the short time I spent with them last night, and on a movie I watched on USA channel - Shoot 'Em Up, a fun flick for disbelief, but a blast to watch (I caught the tail end), I was surprised by the additional, what seemed to me to be, presence in the soundtrack even on compressed cable HD feed for Dolby Digital. The end title hard metal soundtrack came through with much more shear balls than the last time I watched this on the same channel a week or two ago, and had more instrumental separation. Suprised me. Then, I had to hit the hay for today's early start into the office.
Question on the LCD - have you tried both at the same time?
Ozzy, great. Thanks! I would say one crisis at a time (i.e. on GC on one thing at a time for the great experiment). My speakers GC's are supposed to arrive tonight so this may be interesting. I wish they had come on Friday so I could have really played with them on Sat. night with the HT going gangbusters, but tonight should give me some ideas. Thanks so much for your kind support.
I would be most curious about a GC on a JL 113. Having two would be interesting. I have also read time and again using RCA GC's on front end equipment using one of each is the way to go (ref and standard). I just hope these don't squash the sound stage. In talking to some folks with a system similar to mine they did not experience the squashed soundstage with the ref series on the speakers. crossing my fingers...
Moonguy, I am using the RCA type Ground Controls on my Cary. The Cary has both Balanced and RCA's out. The balanced outputs are sent to my Preamp leaving the RCA's open to be used with the Ground Controls (left and right channel). I found the Ref RCA to be highly detailed with a somewhat narrower soundstage than the standard RCA. So, using one standard and one Ref RCA provided the wider soundstage with more detail. If I were to use only one RCA on the Cary I would use the standard. I also prefer the stanadard spades on my speakers.
I read you have 2 rca GC on your Cary cd player. I am running XLR wires , so I assume you only need 1 GC on the negative rca out jack. Would that be correct?
Can you tell me where you put the other rca GC on your Cary, beside the rca out and what degree of improvement you noticed using 2 GC rca versions on your Cary.
Oddeophile, I'm thinking that the Ground Control RCA's are best used on front end equipment. Such as a CD Player,Squeezebox Touch, Blu Ray player and yes a LCD TV. The TV is a tough one though. I have gone back and forth between the Ref and the standard RCA and still cant decide which is better. Right now I would say the ref. I have it plugged into one of the video composite inputs. But I suppose any input would suffice. The improvement is a slightly sharper picture with more depth and deeper colors. And of course then the TV Audio is sent through my Multi channel Receiver where that is also improved.
I also own a JL 113 Sub but have never tried a GC on it. Yet...
Ozzy, which version of the GC on the LCD did you use and what were your observations of adding it? I just ordered a full complement of the reference GC's for my speakers to begin checking out the benefits. I ordered the banana versions as my spades are rather large to begin with and I dislike stacking spades on speaker terminals.
Has anyone tried an RCA GC on their powered subwoofer(s)? I have two JL Audio Fathom F113's I would also wonder if adding them to would benefit in the bass arena?
Many thanks. Just beginning my foray into the GC world...
Just an update. I have found that using a Reference RCA along with a standard RCA on my Cary 306 Pro CD player provides the best of both of the RCA qualities. That is, large deep soundstage and precise highly detailed imaging. In addition to those two RCA ground controls I now have one on my Oppo BP-83SE, one on my LCD and one on my Squeezebox Touch.
Note: I removed the RCA ground controls from my Preamp and Amp; there they provided little if any value.
I also have the 2 sets of spades of standard ground controls on my Andra 2 Speakers along with a set on my Amp.
On my Home theater speakers, (B&W) I have a couple of sets of the standard spades. Soon to aquire a few more to complete that system.
I don't mean to scare you. The RCA GC's to a DAC ground appear to affect the cable load and the clock looses sync and the bitstream quits. This to an external DAC with the RCA on that digital ground. Unplugging the RCA solves the problem in about 2 minutes and nothing further occurs. In my Sony SACD etc player, an external PCA onto the spdif with no external DAC connection also shut down the player. I had to turn it off to get the unit to reset. No further problems. So, the GC's don't hurt anything, they just make em mad.
As for the video application, I have been told that plugging an RCA into a video player is helpful. I don't know anything about these devices so I have no cautionary words. Blacker Black and more vivid colors were claimed in both conversations. I am a bit skeptical, but again, I have no experience here.
Under no circumstances should you ever put a Ground Control on a digital ground connected RCA!!!!!!!! Seriously. I am not sure that a fully differential CD etc player would respond any better than did your amplifier to one of the RCA GC's.
We will likely market a set of speaker cables early next year, using the same materials technology the GC's utilize. So, you might save your money for those, they will be absolutely neutral and immune to anything except being draped over a power transformer.
Otherwise, enjoy what you have and perhaps take a peek at Planet10hifi.com. I am sure you have speakers you love, but the EnABL process and Mark Audio drivers, in a cabinet made in Canada, designed in Britain, with workmanship better than the Chinese cabinets and far more musical, might be something to investigate for the future. I can promise significant removal of all of the obstructions to music that speakers force onto us with this combination.
I've been very happy with three pairs of Audio Prism's Reference Ground Control Spades on my speakers. However, they did not work well on my fully differential solid state amplifier. My fully differential CD/SACD/DVD player, with a tube output stage, goes directly into the amp without a pre-amp. Would the Reference or Standard RCA versions on the digital output (RCA coaxial) and on the video output (RCA) be beneficial for audio quality.
Thank you for your kind words. I am pleased to hear from a large ribbon aficionado. Seems that all that is left is a large horn system. Maybe I can talk Romy into insulting me?
I will of course invite you to look into a pair for your amplifier/s At that point, the RCA's begin to make a noticeable difference, especially when applied to a commercial CD player without an out board DAC (assuming aanyone but me has such a device any more). I have also found them to indespensible for solid state electronics of all kinds and could not be parted with my Nikko Beta 1, so long as it has the RCA GC's attached.
Hi all, After following this thread for a while and reading the various reviews of the GCs online, I finally decided to try a couple of pair on my biwired modified Apogee Duetta Signatures (for those not familiar w/these, they are full range ribbon panels from the late 80s). And the results are in keeping those already reported by Ozzy and others---soundstage more defined, deeper, and wider; each performer better defined in his/her own space; a cleaner, clearer sound that has more impact, texture, and a more solid foundation.
Thanks for the info Tony. I will have a pair of subs coming on line in a few weeks and I will try your tip about the reference GC's on the woofers, with standards up top, which is what I currently have, with two reference's on the amp.
I am sure you can use an RCA Y adapter to apply a GC RCA unit. Make it the shortest adapter you can find, one with the least metal and dielectric possible.
For that matter you could also use a Y adapter for the headphones, with a tip and ring male plug attached to a female RCA and plugged into one of the Y's. I have no idea how this would sound, but no harm can come from trying it out. You may need two RCA GC's to make this work, unless the particular headphone has a common ground / return wire, rather than separate ones for each channel.
A tip and ring plug comes in a variety of sizes, 1/4" mono, stereo and balanced stereo, with similar types available for mini-plugs. These are just the official name for the plugs usually found on the end of your headphone cables.
I couldn't help but wonder since the ground control has such a profound effect on my DeVore Super 8's. My main headphone amp is the Naim headline 2 without the rca's. It has a 4 and a 5 pin plug. So, I don't see an option here.
I am looking at some high end phones which can be rewired. Not sure if I will end up with Sennheiser HD800, Beyerdynamic t1 or a Grado.
Not sure what a tip and ring plug adapter is.
I was wondering if it would be safe to try using an rca y adapter on my dac with the rca ground control on one and my ic on the other. I would like to try one on my dac, but I do not have any unused rca's.
I would be surprised to find that the standard GC's worked well with headphones. I would think that a modified device would work well though. I have them on my phono cartridge and tape deck heads and preamps. These are special designs of course, using far less of the materials than the standard GC's are built with and hand tuned to suit the particular purpose.
Headphone amps might be a place to try, but I would only recommend a standard RCA, perhaps plugged into an RCA to tip and ring plug adapter. I have made tip and ring GC's for an M Audio outboard DAC that worked quite well, but we haven't elected to make a niche product like that available.
I can probably get authorization to build and sell prototypes and special production orders. I haven't yet asked about this format for GC's. I am under some legal constraints about what I can and cannot do with GC's, just to get them to market.
I'm using the standard model on the tweeter/mid connections and the the reference model on the bass on the Vandy 3A Signatures. Tried the refs on the back of the amp for a while but they make the most difference to my ears on the speakers. The sound is more open and easier with them in place. A worthwhile tweak IMHO.
Thank's for your information Moonguy. Yours are the first ML drivers I have heard of having Ground Control being applied to. I will be interested to hear how the GC's woek on the bass units and amplifiers.
The ground controls are a keeper!! I was surprised at the difference of just having one set on the negative post for the stators of my Martin Logan Odyssey's.
The music was more natural, better flow to it,better soundstage and air.To put it bluntly, it sounds more real. I consider these things a bargain for what they do for the price.
I will be adding another set for the bass on the speakers and at the amp also, then experiment with the rca version of ground control.
Moonguy, Welcome to the strange world of the Audioprism Ground Control's. You'll be surprised at your first glance as to how small they are. But, you will be impressed with the sound improvement.
I just ordered a standard set of ground control spades for my bi - wire Martin Logan Odyssey's which I will install for the stator panel.
If I experience what Ozzy did, I will do the other set on the speakers, the amp and rca's as well. I will keep you guys posted after I have them in for a while. I found a source up here in Canada for them.
Just an update. I now have 4 sets of the Ground Control speaker spades. One at Amp and two on my Bi-wire speakers and a set on my Supertweeters.
I also have 4 of the RCA's. One on my CD Player, Preamp, Amp and one of the Reference RCA's that I am still experimenting with. I have tried it on my LCD TV, and Blue Ray player. Both of these places seemed to improve in picture quality. I also tried it on my Squeezebox Touch but there it seems to add too much detail.
But, overall there is am improvement and no downside with all of them being used.
Scottmac62, Yes, I now have 3 of the RCA's standards and one of the RCA Reference. I also just got some new interconnects to demo, so everything is a little mixed up. But for now what I can tell, the RCA Ground Controls add still more depth and realism. However, they were not plug and play with immediate improvement. No, these guys needed to be plugged in and played for a couple of days to break in ? I will very shortly try putting Ref + Standard on the same component and in various locations. Anyway, I believe the RCA's add to the Spades improvement. So, perhaps the Speaker Ground Controls sort of set up the foundation.
On my SR Powercell, I still like having my Pass Labs Amp plugged into its own dedicated SR Tesla outlet/circuit with a Noise Destroyer also plugged into that outlet.
The Amp sounded pretty good plugged into the SR Powercell. But, I also had many other items (like my Home Theater items) plugged into after overall using only one dedicated outlet/circuit. But, IMHO, the Amp sounds better with more dynamic's plugged into its own power source.
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