@73max, @divertiti - I think I have experienced the same thing. The first couple times this happened, I had assumed it was a bad file being streamed and I just skipped past it. After recently reading this thread, I decided to look at what was playing when it happened today and noticed that Roon had switched to a different album streaming from Qobuz at 192Khz, 24 bit. Restarting the song, it played perfectly.
I recently decided to try using a direct USB connection between my NUC (running ROCK - essentially the same as the Nucleus+) and my Termi instead of using a streamer. I think I heard this problem before switching to the USB connection, but I'm not completely sure.
I also have a Bryston BDP-2 connected via AES3. I'm trying to decided whether to keep this since I now have my Roon server running on a fanless NUC (with LPS) next to my equipment.
I added Qobuz to the mix only a few weeks ago, so it could have started with this. I have very few high-res downloads, so prior to Qobuz, I was using RIPed CDs and Tidal and had a lot less switching between sample rates.
So I'm not sure if this is just an issue with USB, or a broader issue. I'm also not sure if it is a Roon problem or a Terminator problem. My current configuration is using Roon power-of-2 upsampling and NOS turned off on the DAC. |
@73max I am very glad you have brought up the intermittent distortion issue, I have been experiencing the same thing for months now. It is a metallic ringing scratching noise that is a constant distortion over the music. It happens at random when switching to a next track or resuming playback. The fix is to pause and restart playback, it's almost like the read/write of the buffer gets corrupted.
Clearly this isn't an isolated incident, have you been able to get in touch with Alvin and/or fix the issue? |
Thanks! I've been using the DENAFRIPS Ares ii with HYSOLID App on my iphone and Windows 10 on my PC for the USB input. It seems to work fine for DSD files and others. What do you think? |
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As intriguing as this is, the 45mhz clock links between his products are a closed architecture as far as I can see. I would love to try it, but have been using a 10mhz clock link between Esoteric and SOtM products and see no way to interoperate without a complete reboot. A 10mhz clock link also fits into the studio recording environment. From a marketing standpoint it would have been better for Terminator to have taken a closer look at what established manufacturers are doing with master clocks.
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Hello guys, Like to share the users' impression of DENAFRIPS DAC. https://www.denafrips.com/newsI am extremely happy and encouraged to read these positive impressions. This is simply the best encouragement and drive for me to continue what i am doing and i will do better! Thank you for your support! Alvin Chee www.vinshineaudio.com
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Hi @wegenert, Thank you for your support. You've done the first right step to install the USB driver for
Windows
(Thesycon v4.82.0), that's a good start. To unleash the full potential of the Computer Audio System with DENAFRIPS DAC(in fact, all DAC), please consider to use the following software: - Roon
- Jriver
- Foobar
- Audirvana
-
Amarra
- etc
These applications have the ability to control the USB DAC in Exclusive Mode. This is the keyword. Exclusive Mode bypass Windows Mixer, allow the applications to take full control of the USB DAC. For your case of Foobar, please use use WASAPI output. Some guides can be found here:
https://www.highend-audiopc.com/PDF/Fidelizer-Pro-User-Guide.pdf
https://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/SW/Players/Foobar.htm
Manual, Video Guides to configure NOS/OS, Filters, FAQ can be found on the DENAFRIPS website:
https://www.denafrips.com/support
Hope this helps! Many thanks. Yours sincerely, Alvin Chee www.vinshineaudio.com |
Hello audio folks. I just received my ARES II today and hooked it up. I am now a bit confused. I have a Dell laptop from which I get the usb output from. I have installed the Denafrips usb driver. Installed on the laptop is Foobar2000 to play my musical selections. My selections include 44.1 K some 96K some 192K and some dsd. When I play any of the musical selections the led indicators on the ARES II always show 44.1 K X1. I thought the indicators would respond to the input such as 96K etc. Foobar2000 shows at the bottom of the screen the specs of the tune being played. The info appears to be correct as in displaying 44.1K 96K etc. So my question is what am I doing wrong? I will add that the music plays just fine with any of my selections. I could add some additional detail but I thought for now this would be enough to get started. I apologize for not being a whiz at the ins and outs of the digital realm but I'm pretty old...This Dac stuff i new to me.
Thanks
Terry |
No consternation! Just happened to be listening to my Termi when I saw your post. I had never thought of it in those terms. When I had it playing exact same track side by side with my vinyl rig the Termi beat it in both those areas so my curiosity was piqued. I love hearing other perspectives on all equipment. I’ve never heard the Dave, so it’s interesting to hear your thoughts. Still curious, any idea if his Termi was the latest model or has new board? What was the source?
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Sorry didn’t mean to cause consternation with my comment above - I had limited exposure to the unit - about 1.5-2 hrs listening to it and other DACs (Chord Dave, current Yggy, higher Auralic,) in a good friend’s system - Conrad Johnson/Primaluna tube gear, Kef Reference with Rel subs. Not sure the state of break in of the various units. Yggy was even more bass light than Denafrips, Dave had most fullness of tone. No doubt the KEFs have a modest upward tilt in its character but this sense I got was hearing the various DACs through the same system otherwise. Anyhow, this is just one data point... always trust your own ears more than anyone else’s! |
jjss49, weird, that’s pretty much the opposite of what I’d say about the Termi. |
I switched from an Yggdrasil Analog 2 and right out of the box, the Terminator had more authority in the bass, particularly the mid/upper bass. The mid-range and high end was a little rough at first but continued to get better as it broke in. I've not got 1000 hours or so and it's sounding fabulous. |
Hi jjss.
Was just doing a comparison of Anne Bisson’s all analog Direct to Disk “Four Seasons in Jazz” record (If you have a good vinyl rig you need to buy this album. Limited run of 3000 and getting close to the end—can buy direct from her website) vs Tidal redbook on my Terminator.
I’m using a Rega RP10 with Aphelion MC cart and LKV phono section. All playing through ML523 pre and 536 monos feeding 802D3s. They compare favorably with an edge to the Termi. Probably the last descriptor I would use would be “bright/less weight”.(I used to use an Oppo 205. That’s exactly how I would describe it, bright/less weight.)
Like most equipment, Terminators do have their critics, but I’ve never seen it described quite like that.
Curious, how extensive was your time with the terminator? Do you know if it had the new board? Any idea about the source and source settings? What was the associated equipment? Did you have a chance to compare it directly with another dac?
Always eager to hear a counter view and welcome!
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new here
heard the terminator
nice sound but definitely in the brighter/less weight camp |
On another subject. Even though clocking and buffering before the dac, only for the dac to redo it all, makes absolutely no sense to me, new GAIA on the way. |
I’ve been listening several nights now while changing formats both upsampling and native. I haven’t been able to get the distortion to appear. Guess I’ll just enjoy the music for now and see what happens.
I’m with the others on the DSD vs PCM. PCM is why R2R exists. As I said in a prior post, I prefer it to both native and upsampled DSD. I may actually prefer native DSD “downsampled” to PCM. Not sure if that is a hit on the DACs Sigma Delta/FPGA or a compliment to its R2R. Most likely it’s the R2R is that good. None the less, I still tend to listen to DSD in native format for “fear of missing out“.
There is a caveat to my preference that I mentioned in a prior post. The level changes dramatically when I shift between DSD and PCM. DSD being much softer. I do try to adjust for this using the volume control, but it does make a direct comparison difficult. Is there a setting in Roon that can help equalize the difference so I can get better results?
As for upsampling in roon vs over sampling through the DAC I find myself slightly gravitating to leaving oversampling to the DAC. It’s a close call. I also experimented with using both simultaneously—the thought being to share the load so neither is working as hard. However, oversampling twice equals two sets of filtering which bothers me so I only use one or the other.
Curious, Anyone know what rate the Terminator oversamples to? Is it a multiple of the source? Knowing may help me help me with some more trials.
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Wow, looks like I set off a mini-storm above with my Roon settings.
1. With the Terminator, you get options with DSD or PCM, both of which sound excellent in my system. I had a pure, PCM-only ladder DAC, which I really enjoyed (Yggy Analog 2 and others), but I wanted options and even better sound quality- that is why I bought the Terminator.
2. Ultimate sound quality for the dollar is the raison d' etre of the Terminator IMHO.
3. The DSD section was not added to the Terminator as some after thought like a display dimmer setting.
4. The argument above about wasting money if one is using the DSD- section, I can make the same argument to you... why did you "waste" your money on the Terminator, which has a DSD section you also paid for, but are not using? Using your logic, go buy a PCM only ladder DAC and save your dollars. I don't view DAC's as commodities so I don't personally agree with this logic but I have no problems if others view things that way.
5. I didn't say oversampled DSD with the settings I listed is the ultimate or that I exclusively use DSD, or that my settings can beat up your preferred settings. I listen to PCM and oversampled DSD on my Terminator and enjoy both (I don't have any DSD music files).
Enjoy and remember, we Denafrips owners are all on the same team. This is just a hobby and we like what we like. |
Alvin from Vinshine Audio is THE man! I purchased the Denafrips ARES II DAC earlier this year when it was on back order and Alvin communicated every week or so with an update on the production status and estimated shipping dates. It arrived professional packed (double boxed) in bullet proof foam enclosure.
Hooked it up to my Mac mini and it played straight away with no setup and just kept sounding better and better as it burned in. Definitely as advertised...very analogue sounding DAC. I also have a Benchmark DAC1 Pre USB as my reference which is a very neutral DAC so it was easy to hear the difference in my setup.
I switched it over to another system that used Windows 10 and could not get the USB input to play. I thought maybe the unit was defective, but it was ultimately user error :) Alvin took the time to walk me step by step and trouble shoot over the course of a few days via email until it was working perfect again. Not only did he help, but he taught me a bunch of things along the way with some articles he shared.
For the price and sound of this DAC and the support from Alvin at Vinshine there is no doubt this is the BEST VALUE in hifi audio. If you are on the fence, do not hesitate to do business with Alvin and try out the Denafrips brand. Was a five star white glove experience from start to finish!
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@luisma31 Good discussion. My position (coming from a guy who only used the Terminator 'native' / NOS PCM) is that having options is better than not having them AND that this hobby is 'the better for it' when we get to explore and choose what works best for us.
In that spirit, I look forward to @73max 's findings and his ultimate preferences. |
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@luisma31 - yes, I agree that having a good DSD section along with the excellent R2R PCM functionality makes the Terminator an excellent "complete" solution no matter your content type.
While I have very little DSD content in my own collection so I haven't done a lot (read none) of A/B testing of DSD content, it makes sense to me to keep PCM as PCM, and DSD as DSD, since this DAC does an excellent job with both.
I did experiment with converting PCM to DSD just for grins (and since this seems to be a big part of PS Audio's approach), but I preferred the results sticking with PCM. The DAC does a very good job with standard Redbook material (with no alteration before the DAC), but I slightly prefer the sound using Roon to do power-of-2 upsampling. |
@david_ten and @alvin1118
David and Alvin, I did not mean to derail this thread onto a separate PCM / DSD / other DACs discussion, just stating my opinion.
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Huh. If they say that the DSD conversion sounds better, it certainly invites me to price shop for a DAC that spent the same amount in the DSD output but not the PCM. Hi Erik: We are saying kind of the same thing. You will buy the terminator for the PCM stage no doubt about it, that is " the whole raison de’etre " as you put it. My own opinion for other factors. If you also have DSD recordings the DSD stage is very good as well and you don’t have to go from DSD to PCM, how good is this DSD vs PCM stage is a matter of preference, I don’t use it and I have said elsewhere in these forums that PCM sounds better than DSD and got controversial. Honestly I don’t take sides, so I told them do whatever rocks your boat. When I was referring Erik that you (I should have said "could" not "would") get not only for the R2R (English is not my native language) I meant because other parameters (not specifically the DSD section) Using silly bulk numbers reasons to get the Terminator - Resistor ladder for PCM conversion - 60%
- Power supply quality, shielding and design and placement of components - 20% (Other DAC’s you usually have to power these with LPS’s and such to get very good benefits meaning extra cost $600 - $2000 for a good LPS, the built in PS on the Terminator is very good, you don’t need to spend extra on power supplies)
- Filters used - 10%. These are very good, with native PCM redbook content the OS feature plays wonderful, the filters are the hand of the designer and have their own magic, I experimented this specifically with Euphony Stylus Player.
- DSD conversion - 10%.The SDM conversion is very good (specially with the good power supply embedded in the hardware), if you have native recordings again you don’t need to go through the PCM conversion, or DoP etc. just direct DSD, up to 1024 which is nice although not very usable for limitations on content and conversion software.
I understand for you topic 1. the PCM conversion will weight possibly 100% or 90% making the decision, I am just trying to see it in more "general" / "big picture" terms.If you want a good SDM DAC go for an RME ADI, will cost half the price (without an LPS) but it won’t offer many of the "special" features the Termy does. And besides let’s be realistic, how many here are using Tidal / Qobuz PCM streaming vs Native DSD users? i would say 95%? Yeah exactly your point (and mine) Erik ... |
This is a very complete product which you would get not only for the R2R section, that's what I'm trying to say.
Huh. If they say that the DSD conversion sounds better, it certainly invites me to price shop for a DAC that spent the same amount in the DSD output but not the PCM. Buy what you will, but if you are going to run them this way, make sure you compare this way as well. Best, E |
Erik's point I think is you could get a cheaper DS DAC if you prefer DSD (for some reason) and forget about the ladder part.
Kind of. As I understand it, the whole raison de'etre of the DENAFRIPS line of DACs is the discrete R2R ladder, no? Conversely, the whole point of DSD is to simplify the reconstruction circuit to a switch and capacitor with an output filter. Also, yes, I've heard Roon's DSD upsampling, and at least on my system it sounds brighter and harder, not better while soaking up CPU time on the server. But it's his ears and his money. If he likes the sound better that way, that's his choice.
@jaytor No doubt, I'm just confused here, it's like buying a fancy French chef's knife to chop wood. |
If I may add, I said above big part of the cost were the resistors but I could add the final analog conversion electrical stage it is excellent as well as the digital filters used in the conversion. This is a very complete product which you would get not only for the R2R section, that's what I'm trying to say.
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+1 @erik_squires . I was thinking the same thing. But it’s his ears and his money. If he likes the sound better that way, that’s his choice. You nailed it @jaytor, in three lines what I used more than 30, 👍 |
That makes no sense to me.
That is a good (although very direct and raw) remark. I totally agree but you could have added @erik_squires "even more if the source content is native PCM" This is the way I understand it. Big part of the cost of the Terminator is the good quality and numerous resistors it uses. When you send content to the DAC it will do a lot of things, depending on the input used, buffering and reclocking etc, based on the source content will start the upsampling and digital to analog conversion on one of these two paths, if the content is PCM will be processed over the ladder of resistors and if it is DSD will be processed over the Sigma Delta stage with custom programmed FPGA. IMO if you have native source content on DSD format well sending direct DSD bypassing the resistor ladder would be possibly advisable. On the other hand if you have PCM (from Tidal, Qobuz) then you could be better off sending PCM to it. Erik's point I think is you could get a cheaper DS DAC if you prefer DSD (for some reason) and forget about the ladder part. As said above My preference with the DAC would be sending "converted" (I don't like the term upsampled as I feel it is grammatically incorrect) PCM to max resolution with NOS, but (again) I for some time used a different player (not Roon) sending native Tidal with no conversion and the OS feature engaged and it sounded wonderful, could say different but comparable. After playing much with computers, software and suffering the effects of EMI/RFI I came to realize that if you don't have the time to tweak or if you just want to enjoy digital content with a simplier yet refined digital chain that's where you would be using the Terminator at its best Please note just like I have my own preferences everyone else in this forum have their own, and I respect that, it is your ears, your perception and your money. If I am making a false claim above by all means chime in and correct me |
+1 @erik_squires . I was thinking the same thing. But it's his ears and his money. If he likes the sound better that way, that's his choice. |
So I'm a Roon user, and while I get the headroom settings, why on earth would you buy an expensive R2R dac if you are going to feed it DSD??
That makes no sense to me.
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I'm approaching 1000 hours on my Terminator and it's really sounding great. I'm using Roon ROCK on a fanless NUC through an EtherRegen to a Bryston BDP-2 (upgraded audio card) connected to the Terminator through AES3.
I've found using Roon sample rate conversion to Max PCM Rate (power of 2) with the Precise, Minimum Phase filter, and the Termy set to OS (NOS off) gives me the best sound.
I haven't experienced any hissing or ringing, but did have an occasional skip or hiccup (maybe once or twice a day). This was after I modified my NUC to use an internal SSD drive instead of a USB drive, but before I added the EtherRegen. I haven't noticed any hiccups on the past few weeks, so I'm not sure if it was related to the changes I made, or just a coincidence.
I'm intrigued by the Gaia, but would probably only consider this if I could replace my Bryston and switch to using USB from the NUC to the Gaia and then I2S to the DAC. I'm be interested to hear how this works for people. |
Another member on AS provided these Roon settings and I gotta say, I'm really liking them on my Terminator (my ultraRendu is set to native DSD), I am streaming Tidal and local files: Roon Instructions: In Roon, tap the speaker icon in the bottom right corner, tap "DSP". tap "Headroom Management", and set the value to -5 dB, this lowers the level before oversampling to avoid clipping during the oversampling process. In the same field, set "Show Clipping Indicator" to "on". This will tell you if you have an clipping during playback (if you do, you can lower the headroom management a couple more dB, but usually -5 dB is enough). Tap, "Sample Rate Conversion", and set sample rate conversion to "DSD". Set "DSD Sample Rate" to 256, Set "Sample Rate Conversion Filter" to "Precise, Linear Phase" (I prefer this setting, but you can try others of course). Set "Sigma Delta Modulator" to "7th order CLANS", leave "SDM Gain Adjustment" at "0", set "Parallelize Sigma-Delta Modulator" to "Yes", set "Enable Native DSD Processing" to "Yes". The DSD to PCM settings are irrelevant. Before you exit, double check on the left that "Headroom Management", and "Sample Rate Conversion" are enabled.
Just thought I would share with this group.
P.S. Looking forward to my Gaia- should ship within the next week or two!
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FWIW and IMO using Roon by itself I prefer the Terminator with PCM max native rate and not upsampling in Roon. Terminator in OS mode (not NOS)
If you use HQPe (which I prefer to Roon alone) then PCM max upsampling 1536 with 19 bits and Termy in NOS mode.
Again this is just my preferenceThis is a wonderful DAC, I would love to hear comments for the DAC and the DDC as well
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Well the only time I experienced a loud distortion and hiss was with the 1st Amanero board, possibly with the end of 2018 firmware for the new board (1st iteration) which was very stable with the update from Nov 2019, that update was revealing. MCU and FPGA update. If your DAC is from Nov 2019 or newer it should have such firmware. Which by the way brings the SQ to an entire new level.
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Thanks Luis. Not sure I would describe the effect the same but possibly the same parameters. A very distinct and loud distortion and hiss. Definitely goes away if I change content or restart the play. I actually was not aware of the firmware updates. I’m guessing it’s going to have to be done with a Windows computer which I don’t have. All Mac and Apple here. Will look into it. Thanks |
IME when I was using upsampling, the Terminator board when changing upsampling content / parameters sometimes (and this was very very sporadic) with the latest firmware was playing with a background "ringing" noise, stopping and starting with different source content or powering cycle fixed it. Mainly with PCM which is what I was sending to the board. I expect the next firmware release to fix this.
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are you by any chance using HQPlayer or the upsampling capabilities within Roon? I am streaming mostly through Qubus and Tidal. A few downloads also. I’ve been experimenting a lot with up sampling through Roon, sometimes I use it and sometimes I don’t. I have not been paying enough attention to make the connection between upsampling and the hiss. It is so random and intermittent that it will take me a while to check these things. |
New D/D converters.
I am toying with the idea of purchasing a GAIA to pair with my Terminator. (Have some other issues to resolve with the Terminator first, see above posts).
Looking at the Terminator’s block diagram it appears the signal from I2S inputs (coming from the GAIA) is buffered and reclocked again by the Terminators FIFO. Is this correct? Am I reading the diagram correctly?
If so, it seems that most, if not all, the magic of the $2000-ish GAIA’s OCXO clock is for naught if the DAC is basically going to buffer the “perfectly” timed bits then assign its own timing through a “lesser clock” before sending them on their way.
I’ve seen some anecdotal proclamations that it sounds wonderful. Doesn’t seem to jive with the science. I’m fairly new to all this so please educate me. With the science part preferably. Opinions and individual experiences are valuable, but not what I’m after here.
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Latest board was released about 1 month ago? or so .... it is pretty much the same in terms of upsampling.
the "artifacts" you are experiencing, are you by any chance using HQPlayer or the upsampling capabilities within Roon?
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Going off memory here, so I'm not a hundred percent certain....
The original (first board) when the Terminator was initially released.
The second board approximately one year (~ a year +) ago. |
Thanks again David. Of course, it has to be an intermittent problem. The most difficult to resolve. Might not happen again for another week, might happen twice tonight. Very difficult to troubleshoot unless you can monitor 24 seven for days if not weeks.
When I bought it, the new board had just gone up for sale, I asked Alvin about it prior to purchase and he said mine would ship with the latest. I was not aware that there were three boards as you said. Any approximate timeline on when the second came out? |
@73max Definitely connect with Alvin.
If you purchased in November (and it was a pre Nov. unit), there is a newer board available. Check a few posts up. Post by Alvin on 5/2. He should be able to let you know if you have the latest one or not.
You can also look at the board pics on the Denafrips site to determine for yourself. It's a simple removal of the top plate...two screws have to be removed...directions are on the site.
Also, try switching to another USB cable, as a simple test to eliminate the cable as being the issue (though it's unlikely to be, in my opinion).
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Thanks David. I haven’t addressed the hiss issue with Alvin yet. It is intermittent, but usually happens at least once a listening session and resets easily. At first I was just thinking this is part of digital audio, but lately I’m starting to think otherwise. Maybe I will contact him.
It typically happens when switching to a new album at a different sample rate. Not 100% sure that it hasn’t happened at other times, I need to evaluate this more closely.
The only digital source I have is my nucleus+ and no other way to feed it besides USB.
As for the board, it had the latest version when I purchased it last November. I don’t think there has been an update since then, has there? Is there a post that shows what the newest board looks like so I can take a look inside? |
@73max Which board are you using in the Terminator (there are three versions now)?
Can you test via another digital cable feed?
Can you test with another server/streamer (other than your Nucleus+) feeding the Terminator?
Have you and Alvin troubleshooted the static/hiss issue?
I had a 'similar' (intermittent) static/hiss issue which was resolved fully. |
Terminator update.
First, the not so good: In an earlier post I stated I had sent the unit back for transformer hum. I’ve seen at least one other posting regarding the same. There was still a very slight hum when returned to me. I agree with the prior poster that this really is not acceptable for a flagship product. However, I bought an Emotiva CMX2 DC offset blocker which cured the hum. (There are few, even very expensive, power conditioners designed to eliminate DC offset). Apparently there is some degree of DC offset on my power lines, but the Denafrips was the only component not able to cope with it as nothing else in my system has any transformer hum. One more box to contend with in my system, fortunately I have room to hide it. Something to think about.
As for the sound, for the most part it is amazing! With PCM it’s detailed yet warm with stunning holographic imaging. But...On occasion there is static and a hissing sound similar to what you might experience with extreme clocking/jitter issue. Restarting play usually cures it. I am not sure if this is an issue with the Denafrips or Roon software or my nucleus+. Not quite sure how to trouble shoot that one. Any suggestions are welcome. The fact that it happens, even occasionally, haunts me... “is it happening now at a less audible level? Is the sound right? Could it be better? Is the DAC broken?“ Sometimes the music seems better than others even when I don’t hear the hiss. Just in my head???
As for DSD vs PCM. It’s hard to A/B it by upsampling. When I upsample PCM to DSD the level drops considerably which has a dramatic affect on perceived sound quality. (The opposite happens if I downsample a DSD file to PCM—the level increases) Again, I am not sure if this is a function of the DAC or the Roon software. I have tried to correct for this by adjusting the volume, but don’t seem to be able to get it just right. My very rough impression is the DSD soundstage seems ever so slightly more compressed with less detail. In fact, I have taken to down sampling some DSD material to PCM. On the surface this makes sense, as the magic in the DAC is the R2R where PCM shines. |
Hi, I'm interested to buy a Terminator. Is there anyone.in the UK who has bought one from Singapore and imported it into the UK?
If so, may I ask how much Import Fees and Customs rates were paid? Obviously I know.The VAT fee but would like to gain solid info for UK importation.
Many thanks. |
I see the new Denafrips digital-to-digital products accept clock inputs around 45mhz. Any idea why they chose these rates? The most commonly used rate in audio studio master clocks is 10mhz, as well as multiples of 44.1 to 192khz. Also, can the multiple outputs on these products be used simultaneously? In my system it would be useful to operate USB and AES/EBU outputs simultaneously-- one to a DAC and the other to a digital recorder.
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