DENAFRIPS DAC ---- Owner Impressions, Feedback, General Discussion, Questions and more....

I have no horse in this race, but I have heard Devore Nines, and they do have a sound, ie, they aren't neutral. And if that's typical for the house sound, then they wouldn't be good speakers for this comparison. Devores I heard are nice and fast but pretty lean sounding. 

I have owned many great speakers over the years with wonderful midrange from Soundlabs to Silverline. My current Living Voice OBX RW speakers excel in midrange with two 6.5 inch drivers. Not merely good, but excel. Depends on design. Never judge a book by its cover. Yes you can get wonderful mids with a 6-7 inch midwoofer design. You will not get the deepest bass.

@shadorne I remain exceptionally impressed by those among us who know how something sounds without hearing the item in question.

In the case of polypropylene drivers, I generally agree with you. I'm not a fan of those utilizing poly I have heard, but I haven't heard them all.

By the way, the Devores in question use paper drivers, NOT polypropylene but you must have looked at a picture, assumed they were poly because they kindof look shiny, and determined how they would sound. I don't know if they are awesome or not as I haven't heard them nor have you.

I will reiterate that I'm sure the Denafrips is a really cool DAC and I hope everyone has alot of fun with it BUT, your credibility on the Devore assertion is non-existent.

@ghasley

Sorry to burst your bubble but a 7inch mid range crossed over to a 0.75 inch tweeter means a big hole in the mid range. The Devore Gibbon Nines will sound pleasant even when pushed because of the recessed mid range. This anything but high fidelity but it is exceptional cabinetry using OEM scanspeak drivers. Also plastic drivers (polypropylene) have a nasal woody character (Mission developed the polypropylene driver about 40 years ago and it is not highly regarded any longer). Using such a colored speaker for evaluation is not useful even if many folks love that old 80’s sound - “highly musical” is a good way to describe it. A good speaker to suit certain tastes just not ideal for reviewing electronics.

+1 on your questions to Alivn shadorne, looking forward to his answer.

Cheers George

@twoleftears You are likely correct regarding the Border Patrol DAC SE

@shadorne You are likely INcorrect regarding the Devore Fidelity Super Nines

At the end of the day, we should buy whatever we like but there is zero chance John Devore works on and designs a speaker over several years that doesn't get the midrange right. Zero. That is his wheelhouse.

Your assertion that the speakers were flawed makes no sense.  The consensus of the group was 2 of the 4 dacs sounded exceptional, 1 dac sounded great and 1 sounded not so great.  I'm not saying their conclusions are right but rational people might buy in and believe the Terminator was not broken in or warmed up but to assert the Terminator was the only one of the four that actually got it right is not credible at all.

I own none of the products/brands under review/comparo and I hope the Denafrips is a stellar piece since you appear to be about to buy it unheard. The only brands mentioned in this review that I have heard personally are Devore and Pass Labs and they are both fine brands and are well known for their musicality. Warm regards.

Deleteted

@ghasley

Interesting but the set up is colored to begin with (no 7 inch woofer can do mid range properly) so I think the conclusion was simply what worked with the gear used. If anything the Denafrips might be more accurate since they heard exactly the deficiencies of that speaker....

At those prices, the Border Patrol did really well!

@alvin1118

Thanks for clarification. Since 0.005% tolerance on the resistor is only enough to achieve 14 to 15 bits resolution are you randomizing the selection of the resistor network used every clock cycle in order to achieve higher bit resolution?

World Class DACs have close to 21 bit resolution above noise floor currently - so just wondering how you get close to achieve that? Having 500 resistors per channel suggest you might achieve 19 to 20 bit resolution with noise reduction from random selection among 512 resistors...

FWIW I have full confidence you have a world class product just curious if you have overcome the bane of Resistor ladder and R-2R DACs which has been bit resolution (due to finite accuracy of resistor manufacturing tolerances). The huge multitude of resistors in your design is a big clue to me that they serve a clever purpose rather than just a curiously high specification...

I have my credit card out of my wallet and ready....but I am a painstakingly technical buyer so I would like more info if you can share (hopefully this aspect isn’t a trade secret).

Audiostream just did a quick comparison of 2 Totaldac Dacs with a Borderpatrol SE and a Denafrips Terminator. Apparently the panel preferred the Totaldacs 1-2, then the Borderpatrol 3rd and bringing up the rear the Denafrips Terminator. Don't shoot the messenger please.

https://www.audiostream.com/content/great-dac

@jayctoy @grannyring 

For now, the warranty will be handled directly by us.

In event of the unit is faulty within 30days, we bear all cost to replace it, one-to-one. Thereafter, within a year, the customer bears the cost to ship it back to us, and we shall repair and return it at our cost. Details can be found here.

p/s: We may have US local partner(s) soon to address the repair/ service concerns. The online direct sales business model remains the same though, i.e. customers to buy directly from us. 

May reach out to me via email to discuss further. 

Many thanks.

Rgds,
Alvin @ VINSHINE

Can you share how USA warranty work would be handled? 

@jayctoy   Really happy that you are strongly considering the Yggdrasil. It is an excellent DAC. Also great that you will have the chance to listen to the Denafrips DACs at Axpona. If you are ever this way (New Orleans), reach out...it would be great to have you over.

My understanding (and mine alone) is that the chart is for a reference to help folks get a snapshot of pricing in Euros, US Dollars, etc. Banks / Credit Cards will apply the appropriate rates when the transaction is processed. 

Hi guys,

I'd like to clarify that DENAFRIPS does not use the Soekris DAC board.

Enjoy the music!

Rgds,
Alvin @ VINSHINE AUDIO

@grannyring 

Service has been outstanding for me. Alvin of Vinshine Audio has been a pleasure to deal with.

I cannot answer as to where the warranty work would be done. I imagine given the shipping costs both ways, it would be more cost effective to have it done locally. Perhaps Denafrips or Vinshine can comment on this.

@georgehifi

“Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Denafrips Terminator and other models use the Danish "Soren Kristensen" Soekris Engineering R2R Dac board??

http://www.soekris.dk/

Cheers George”

I think you are right. I see Soekris claim a 27 bit R-2R converter on their website (with hundreds of resistors) - they do NOT claim 27 bit resolution which is obviously unobtainable with this kind of design - I estimate Soekris and Denafrips Terminator might get 20 bits resolution with this kind of design.

I see. Not bad. Any idea of the service level of this company? Went to the site and looked around. The support question is important. Warranty work done here in the states? 

Hi Bill.

Price is in Singapore Dollars: $5860

Based on recent currency rates the Denafrips is roughly US $4,500.

https://www.vinshineaudio.com/denafrips

Vinshine doesn't set prices on Mondays! Though I'm sure Alvin would love having those skills at hand. : )

The market, Central Banks, etc. do. : )

Thanks. Not inexpensive! 

How much is the Denafrips Terminator dac please in US dollars? 

@drrnc2  @bube  Thanks! That’s great news!

Room 1524 courtesy of Ginko Audio (also Danacable).

A post to the A-gon companion thread to this one --mentioned just above-- by david ten says that the full "Denafrips line will be on active display at AXPONA.  drrnc2

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t the Denafrips Terminator and other models use the  Danish "Soren Kristensen" Soekris Engineering R2R Dac board??

http://www.soekris.dk/

Cheers George

Standalone thread and a copy of the main body of my 'review' can be found in this Audiogon Thread:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/denafrips-terminator-and-schiit-yggdrasil-evaluation-and-comp...

My Evaluation of the DENAFRIPS Terminator and the Schiit Yggdrasil is complete and can be read here:

http://terminatorandyggdrasil.blogspot.com/

Yes it was a fun session at my place.  Good sound, good food, better company, what more can a guy ask for! :-).
Anyway, the analog vs. digital comparison was not really a fair fight, given that my analog rig costs 5 times the Terminator.  Anyone want to buy a great analog rig :-)?
Vinh Vu
Gingko Audio and Danacable

@drrnc2  Good to know.  We talked a bit, with Adrian between us.  My hair's not yet silver, I wore a navy blue sweater, and spent most of my time talking with him, Vinh, and Jens.  Fun time, for sure.  I'm left thinking about the Terminator.

By the way, the ribs were delicious!

trelja---yes.  I was tall guy, silver (NOT grey) beard/hair, left early to get home to MD.

Dixter

In some respects the Venus looks like it might occupy the sweet spot in the brand line-up, yet curiously we're hearing very little about it.  Any owners out there?

@drrnc2  Were we just at the same get together???

Likewise, I also felt most happy with the current incarnation of Vinh's system.  His speakers have sure come a long way since the early days, physically and sonically.  Very impressive design!

That DENAFRIPS DAC looks like a real beast, with excellent sound.  Yes, everyone agreed the vinyl presentation still won, but digital's come so far

@danasam  Gripping storytelling of Termination Day and putting Pontus up for Adoption. 

Great to hear your take and findings with the Denafrips Terminator. Having the Terminator with many more hours than yours, rest assured, you will be in for an even more rewarding experience as it fully settles in. 

Your descriptors fit with my experience with this wonderful DAC...it's great to hear the same from you. Congratulations on finding an endgame DAC for yourself!

danasam---I was just to our mutual friend's house back east here--he also having a "Termy".  Best sound from his system yet.  Such telling detail...one of the things I like --or perhaps aim for-- in my system is being able to hear each instrument/voice AS an individual and then hearing at the same time the combination of the parts.  Sort of like seeing the  trees AND the  forest!!.  And that is there with the Terminator. Also there is wonderful dynamics, and accuracy with soul.  Sound stage is particularly deep and layered.  Holographic.

Dixter.

Mr. Pontus gets Terminated !

      I have been around way too many years in this addictive audio hobby of ours. There were the earliest days when, at the ripe old age of 14, and much to the chagrin of my parents , I mounted 4 speakers on the ceiling over my bed. Driven from a mono clock radio, the sound was anything but stellar, but humble beginnings we all have. Through the high school and college years there were many amplifiers, speakers, turntables and the like. I found myself visiting every showroom I could find; I even had fun at one of the largest Lafayette radio stores back in the 1970’s ! Now a retired electrical engineer, I look back and realize I have certainly chased audio nirvana with an undying passion. In the 1980’s the first CDs did not impress, so I never sold my turntable. However, in the last 10 years or so I have gotten on-board with the digital revolution in reproduction. Have tried many DACs, happy but never totally satisfied.

      I said all that to say this, the Denafrips Terminator R2R DAC is the last DAC I will need to, or want to, purchase . . . . period.  It is simply that good, and by good I mean accurate and engaging at the same time. A simple visual analogy is in order here. It is like looking at a perfect photograph, spot on focus, nothing overexposed or under exposed, perfect color balance, realistic depth of field, etc. In short, looking at a perfect photograph transports you to the time & place where the photo was taken. It is as though you were there with the photographer, seeing what he saw.

        As good as the Denafrips Pontus DAC is, the Terminator is on the ultimate musical plane. Its sound signature is definitely in the Denafrips family, it is just that it bests the Pontus in every aspect (and I assume also the Venus but to a lesser degree). With Termy (my nickname for him ) the ease of presentation witnessed with Pontus is taken to a level where you wouldn’t even mention it, because it is a nonissue. Music just flows with no sense of struggle or limitation. It feels like when a subcompact car would have done the job, you instead have an earth-moving vehicle ! The bass definition is so good that identifying the particular bass instrument in any song is child’s play. Massed strings and harmonized voices are what really stands out for me. Just prior to writing this report I listed to The Manhattan Transfer : “Boy From New York City”, “BirdLand”, and one of my favorites “Java Jive”. All of them left me with a new appreciation for this tight knit singing group, just awesome. Next up was Joe Cocker, his soulful voice came through like never before. Every inflection and intonation was brought forth in living color !

        My Termy now has about 80 hours of break-in, I know there may be a bit of improvement still left but at this point I have not complaint one.  I’ll follow up when Termy has in excess of 200 hours . . .  so stay tuned ! BTW Mr. Pontus went to a good friend, he couldn’t be happier . . . or could he?

sincerely, Dana (aka danasam)

@david_ten - you had me at "decadent"  :-)

@danasam  Thanks for your review and thoughts and findings regarding the Pontus DAC. It was a fun read as well. I can relate to your V-8 and motorcycle saddle analogies!  

With the PONTUS you relax in your listening room in a way that I had not experienced before.

I find myself listening into the wee hours of the morning without even realizing it.

....what this hobby is about, right?

@david_ten 

Got it. Thanks. :)

Hi Gdhal.

I really need to do a head to head to be specific and fair to both components.

I love cooking, so I’ll use a food analogy (food is on my mind in the moment). Hope it provides some insight.

One of my homemade broths vs. a bisque. Both are delicious in their own right but one is richer and more decadent and caresses the soul in a more life affirming way. : )

I can say, with confidence, that the Terminator sounds different than and that I prefer it to the Yggdrasil.

Hi David. In your opinion/review and preference aside, in what ways do the Terminator sound different to the Yggdrasil? Thanks.

PONTUS, oh PONTUS, how do I love thee ? Let me count the ways  . . . .

Introduction:

As promised this is part II of my association with Denafrips DACs, and Alvin of Vinshine Audio who distributes them. Mr. Denafrips PONTUS has been with me about 3 weeks now, long enough for me to feel comfortable with some early observations. First of all, he is one handsome fella, all brushed silver with an elegance all his own. I have even grown used to the tiny L.E.D. indicators on the front panel, they seem to fit with the no nonsense character of this design and even at night are not obtrusive. Secondly Alvin was right, the PONTUS is a big second rung up the Denafrips ladder.

 

What struck me first:

1)     When hearing the PONTUS for the first time, I was instantly reminded how good the entry level ARES really is ! PONTUS just improves on all the goodness of the ARES. You definitely know they are from the same lineage, it just that the PONTUS does everything the ARES does, only better ! Even better bass definition, better dynamics, smoother midrange, and a high end that is sweeter, yet with even more detail.

2)     PONTUS Technical prowess is a cut above. Being an Electrical Engineer I was most excited about the way the PONTUS handles the incoming digital bit-stream as compared to the ARES. I think this has quite a bit to do with the differences I heard.  You see one of the bugaboos about digital to analog conversion has to do with clock jitter (i.e. phase noise). In a perfect world the spacing in time between each clock pulse would be identical, in the real world this spacing moves back and forth a bit, known as jitter. With this jitter the conversion is not perfect, and the result is an output signal which has sidebands, not exactly conducive to good sounding music ! This is why so much is made about clock stability in a good DAC design. The Pontus greatly reduces this jitter by incorporating a FIFO (First In First Out) design. The data goes into the FIFO with the clock that comes with the data, but is output from the FIFO with a highly stable internal clock. This jitter reduction means an even cleaner output signal resulting in all those characteristics we audiophiles love, bass definition, layering, sound-stage, micro-detail, etc. Here the PONTUS does not disappoint, just beautiful music !

 

Extended listening observations:

            I started with my “comfort food” tracks and was never wanting for anything, it was that good. The ease with which the music flowed was quite a bit better than the ARES, and way better than anything I had ever heard from a digital instrument. With the PONTUS you relax in your listening room in a way that I had not experienced before.

           A couple of analogies are in order here:

1)     Remember the first time you drove a car with a powerful motor, a big V-8 in my case. When you came to that big hill in your neighborhood the car just went up and over it, no muss, no fuss, like it wasn’t even there ! Or how easily it merged into traffic on the freeway. That is the feeling the Pontus gives you, not unlike a powerful amplifier with plenty of reserve, nothing phases it. From small details to loud passages, the PONTUS just works to keep you engaged. The cleaner, tighter bass results in uncovering even more detail in tracks, handclaps that take on an uncanny realism, percussion that sounds like it is in the room, ah how sweet it is .

 

2)     Secondly there is the phenomenon of listener fatigue. I ride motorcycles and can tell you that a small irritant across a long time becomes a BIG one. One of my cycles has a really cushy seat that on first sitting on it seems so comfortable that it should be good all day, WRONG ! Like a mattress that is too soft it doesn’t offer the proper support, and in the long run is a real pain in the a$$ ! Like Vinshine Audio, the PONTUS has the right support, your ear-brain interface remains delighted even across long listening sessions. So much so that I find myself listening into the wee hours of the morning without even realizing it.

 

      Listening to “not my favorite tracks” revealed nothing really new. Although the few tracks that I found worth adding to my normal playlist with the ARES, were even more enjoyable with the Pontus. The Pontus cannot make a terribly recorded track sound great, but it usually sounds better . After full break-in I will try even more of my previously left behind tracks and report in on my observations .   .   .  

            Lastly there is the ability to listen at low levels without diminished resolution. Some systems only sound “good” when played loud, not so with my system and Mr. PONTUS in the mix. Even at night when my wife has gone to bed, and I need to lower the volume I still find the experience very rewarding and worthwhile. Of course there is the consummate loss of some bass response ( even the mighty  PONTUS can’t reverse the laws of physics), but still the heart of the music comes through and makes me smile. Here the PONTUS shines a bit brighter than the ARES. The micro-details come through a bit clearer and better resolved no matter what the listening level.

            So that wraps up my early observations of the Denafrips PONTUS. Like his smaller brother the ARES, the PONTUS is a value leader in his price range. I can’t say enough about what he brings to the party. When he shows up in your system just let him take control, sit back and enjoy the ride, and what a sweet ride it is .

 

danasam

A general update. The Tekton Design SEs have three weeks on them.

I’ve had the Yggy (Gen 3 USB) and the Yggy (Gen 5 USB) in system, for two of the three weeks and the Terminator went back in-system two days ago.

I prefer having some more time on the SEs (they are more or less broken in now) before doing a full head to head comparison between the two DACs. Sorry this has taken longer than anticipated.

For those of you who are closing in on a DAC choice...or just curious...

Given my system and room, my ears and experience, and my preferences....

I can say, with confidence, that the Terminator sounds different than and that I prefer it to the Yggdrasil. I would and do choose the Terminator, hands down.

The Yggy 5 is a step up from the 3 and adds sound quality and performance value to what is already a terrific DAC. I still like and enjoy the Yggdrasil (a lot) and it is an exceptional value at USD $2299.

System: PC based, networked, Tidal/Roon > Sonore Signature Rendu SE > Schiit Yggdrasil (Gen 5 USB) // Denafrips Terminator > Pass XP-20 > Pass XA-30.8 > Tekton Design Double Impact // Double Impact SE

Input (primarily): USB.