"I'm gonna wave my Reverse Osmosis flag again. It is the only fluid you will need to make your records pristine. You will probably never have to buy expensive record cleaning fluids again. I have a VPI 16.5 RCM and use only cheap 50 cents a gallon RO water, nothing else. They couldn't get any cleaner and quieter. Using expensive RC fluids is throwing money away and not needed. Try it, try it, try it and you will hear it and know. My disclaimer, If your happy using other waters and fluids, then discard my post."
I'll respectfully disagree with that. I currently use ultrapure water which is a far cry better than RO as both a cleaning and rinsing agent in a cleaning regimen that also includes steaming with the ultrapure.
When it gets right down to it, I still believe that a surfactant based cleaner is necessary with many records and is a real benefit with particularly dirty thrift store or garage sale finds as well as very old records (as in 40-50 years old).
I find that the Mo-Fi Super Deep (not the Super Vinyl Wash which I would not buy again) is very effective when combined with steaming and a couple of ultrapure rinses. Cost is about 8 cents a record which I don't find to be extreme in light of what it accomplishes. I've never used an enzyme based cleaner, but unless you have a real biological problem I'm not sure that it's necessary and I find it interesting that the recommendations as far as enzyme based cleaners allow 1) for serious soak time and 2) are followed by a stage or two of cleaning/rinsing with ultrapure water.
My question is: is the effectiveness of the enzyme based cleaners a result of a) the soak time to really loosen stubborn crap on the record or b) the result of using ultrapure as the final stage or c) both of the above and could that result be achieved using a surfactant based cleaner with a bit of extended soak time and an ultrapure rinse.
Whatever the case may be, my experience is that you do need a surfactant in the process. Then you have to get it off the record.
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I'm gonna wave my Reverse Osmosis flag again. It is the only fluid you will need to make your records pristine. You will probably never have to buy expensive record cleaning fluids again. I have a VPI 16.5 RCM and use only cheap 50 cents a gallon RO water, nothing else. They couldn't get any cleaner and quieter. Using expensive RC fluids is throwing money away and not needed. Try it, try it, try it and you will hear it and know. My disclaimer, If your happy using other waters and fluids, then discard my post. |
I use a grounded photo lens dust brush before playing a lp with good results. With the static problem i have using my 16.5 i have to brush. I have a De Stat now and it takes several passes with it to eliminate the static build up. I like to pass the lp on the 16.5 after steaming and thats only 2 turns max. Going to figure out this static problem one day. |
I've found if I NEVER use a carbon fibre brush my records ALWAYS sound better. |
Stltrains : What makes this thread "work" is that steam cleaning works and is a significant stand alone or adjunct to popular record cleaning methods.
According to my email most everyone hears improvements over conventional RCMs. Combo'ing Steam and RCMs is supported by most everybody that's tried it. I have a alot of email from those that use steaming solo and are estatic with the results.
The big Q's (for me) is whether newer/improved record cleaning fluids will make a difference , whether better perhaps safer more specialized steamers are possible/needed and whether specialized bacteria designed to consume contaminates on LPs is commercially plausible ,or are enzymes the way to go. Time will tell.
Oh & how I would like a respected University with a diverse resource base perform scientific studies / research to determine the most cost effective way to safely clean recordings. Johns Hopkins perhaps ??
The market place its hard to make that kind of assessment when so much money is at stake. Business (like life) is rarely rational ; its driven by profit and market share so lots of good intentions get swept aside for the $ or $$$$$. Kinda eat or be eaten. Not too much room for science in that lunchroom.
To be reflective , remember how this thread began ,in part questioning, do I the audio consumer need to buy a $150 "outfit" or is there an alternative ? As we all now know any of us willing to make the effort can "outfit" ourselves for far less , including the same exact steaming unit. Nothing wrong with spending the $150 but you can do it for less. I think we are evolving to the real grit of the matter looking for a little record cleaning grail here and there. So, lets find it if we haven't already. |
I talked with Mr Pendleton and he was very helpful .I will see if i can contact LAST and try find a way to remove these deposits.
Also i have found that if i steam my lp before playing it instead of using a carbon fiber record brush the static is much lower and the record sounds better. |
This is one super thread. Thanks Crem again |
Tshulba: Jim Pendleton, President of Osage Audio & Audio Intelligent Products reports Sheffield Lab Records , which weren't in paper sleeves, were probably treated with Last Preservative that is beginning to go bad.
He wrote , "Last is a polymer coating that is near impossible to remove without damage to the record ... it was not designed to wear off". Mr. Pendleton's products (nor are other fluids) designed to remove Last .
Todd, it appears we all have learned something from you even if Last can not be removed from that LP.
Perhaps as a place of last resort , contact the makers of "Last" to see if they know of a solution that none of us are awaire of. |
Crem1 - I have been using AIVS cleaning solution and it works great. However this super tough crystal like deposit in the grooves are very stubborn. I have found them to only be on Sheffield lab albums and after 6 cleanings with a total soaking time of 3 hrs i have only removed about 50% of the deposits. I am just using up large amounts of cleaning solutions for very little gain. I am just looking for something that might remove it in one shot even if it has to soak for a few hours. I will try soaking with the AIVS enzyme cleaner for 3 hrs straight and see what results i get. Also i am concerned i might be damaging the lp playing it with these deposits still on the lp since a white powdery substance is coming off it might be scratching the grooves. Or worse yet damage my $2k cartridge. I hope all the steaming i have been doing is not setting the deposits more firmly in the grooves. Only time will tell. |
T : Sorry, the correct product name is "Audio Intelligence Vinyl Solutions". |
Todd, My appology for misunderstanding your query.
I have discussed exactly what you have observed with a few audio fluid designers in the past few years. The consensus of opinion was that some mold release products attract bacteria that actually feed on the mold release product; coupled with inorganics from the manufacturing process , it produces a white "concrete" that "glues" itself to the grove wall. Some fluid companies have done extensive research on removing the stuff relying on enzyimes to break down the compound and alcohol-type liquids to neturalize the bacteria .
Since my conversations were confidential in nature I am hesitant to relay information that may not be complete or breaks trust. But I will say that Audio Intelligent Design Fluids and L. Walker products make a strong case in print they can remove that particular problem.
I have also been attempting to tackel the same issue using a slightly different approach, live patient protected bacteria designed to eat all organic materals. My interest came about after having a LP that seemed to resist every attempt at cleaning. Live bacteria do require certian conditions to thrive and they take at least an hour per side. But, in my case they worked beyond what I felt possible. Right now I am awaiting a shipment of bacteria and I would be happy to send you a sample but I have no way of knowing when company "X" will send me a shipment. Should you feel ok with the wait send me a email or purchase a enzyime based cleaner, use the product and later steam off. Charlie |
Thanks CREM1 but this deposit is present before the very first cleaning. I have checked it under a microscope before it is cleaned and i can see it in the groove.I have been told it is mold release products from the record pressing or paper deposits from the record sleeve or deposits from the steaming. Could be mold release but not build up from the record sleeves cause i just checked and i have plastic lined record sleeves.After 6 cleanings and steamings the deposit has decreased by about 50% , i was hoping i could find a faster and cheaper way to remove this buildup.I am using up a lot of my cleaning solution.
Also i have been using distilled water in my steamer and rinse it out after every second steam and i have cleaned it with a descaler product i use in my water distiller, i think if it is safe enough for drinking water it should be safe enough for cleaning my records. |
Todd, The most probable cause : The water used for steaming.
The reason appears related to the heating tank coming in contact with poorly distilled water or tap water ;the water boils, minerals deposit on the inside walls of the heating tank that re-deposit onto whatever one steams in the form of a white power. Some manuals for hand held steam cleaners recommend a 50-50 blend of warm white vinegar and distilled water poured into the unpluged unit to help remove the deposits overnight. However, that hasn't worked for me.
Whenever a steamer deposits stuff or begins "spitting", its easier (for me) to buy a new one. It does seem the older the unit the greater the probabilty ,unless, one has always used super pure or greater water products. The maxium , the cleaner the water product the less likely the steamer will shower your work with unacceptable mineral deposits.
From emails I've received the issue is not wide-spread and for unexplaned reasons can occur (very rare) right out of the box. I know of two instances that were replaced by the seller without problems.
The good news is that a good brush /or de-static brush will remove the white powery stuff , as will a soft, mildly damp micro cloth.
My last suggestion is that heavly molded LPs from years in basements can have shreds of mold left behind, but from your description I think H2O is the culprit. |
I have cleaned my records several times (3-4) with AIVS 3 step with a steam after each process and my records are very clean and sound great. However i still get a white powdery buildup on the stylus after playing one side of some records.Looking at the record under a microscope i can see what looks like a crystal like substance in a few of the grooves .
Does anyone know what this is or how to remove it? Steaming doesn't seem to remove this buildup.
Todd |
Larryi, What steam units do is wisk/steam-off the manufacturing compounds/grit that traps organic and inorganic gunk in the grove; that gunk comes a host for bacteria and/or mold.
Steam harmlessly washes away all those compounds leaving just a reasonably clean grove to reproduce sound. An added plus may be some hydration of the uppermost ridges of the grove that takes some of the reported brittleness in sound away from that LP in playback.
It is for the above reasons I allow my cleaned recordings to rest before I play them. The cleaner you water source the more improvement you may hear.
According to scientific studies discussed in "Positive Feedback" years ago relating to record cleaning , momentary uses of strong chemical cleaners do not leach LPs unless submerged on the groves for very long periods of time.
That is not the case with steam that is comprised only of water and is used in seconds at a time. Steam cleaning (with the addition of using RCM's and fluids) enhanses the cleaning process because it deep cleans the grove and vacumms off spent fluid before a final light steam to remove everything left in the grove. |
It sounds like steaming is a good approach to cleaning new records, and very dirty records. But, if it is so very effective at removing all grime and residue, it may be less desirable to use on lightly soiled records or as an every day sort of cleaner. This is the case with any strong cleaner because compounds added to the record, such as plasticizers, could be pulled from the surface of the record. |
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Steam, properly applied with the cleanest water available can remove most if all manufacturing residues. The application of record fluids may make that cleaning more efficient , but steam is a powerful cleaner unto itself. Its important to utilize safety percautions , follow cleaning proceedures as outlined in the thread and understand no cleaning process can remove manufacturing defects and scratches. That said steam cleaning can safely improve the sound of any recording far better than RCM alone. |
All,
Does steaming remove manufacturing residues on new records??
LAST factory sold 3/4 Oz of their power clean solution for $40! I'm really not sure if I should go for it.
Thanks |
Stltrains, thanks for replying. I will check it out.
My friend told me that they cleaned 4 records yesterday. He is using a Loricraft machine with AI formulas. The first one they tried is a record he was intended to return to the seller since it was unlistenable. Not any more, he will keep it now. After trying that one and gainning confidence, he did 3 more which turned with a pair of improvement and one wasn't changed. Those were cleaned before with his system less steamer. He was so impressed with the results that just bought a Perfection Steamer from Walgreens too.
I cleaned a few more today wity the same great results. |
Jahaira i use Walkers enzyme. There are others who sell it also. |
Guys, what are you using as an enzynne agent? Are these dedicated audio products or can I bought any enzematic agent from a mega store ( like Walmart for example)?
Jahaira |
I use a Precision (brand name) steamer from Waldgreens.com Its about 20 dollars and I use it with really dirty garage sale albums. I also have a nitty gritty which does a good but not so thorough, but easier to use job. I also clean my stylus with a small block of Majic Eraser. Cleanliness is next to.... |
I tried steam cleaning LPs that had been previously cleaned with a DIY loricraft-type RCM. Nerl reagent grade water is used in the steamer. The steamer is used after cleaning solution has been applied to the LP. DD brush to work the solution/steam and then vac. I also use Nerl as a final rinse and vac to finish.
I have recleaned & steamed either favorite or troublesome LPs. The LP is quieter and sounds better after being steam cleaned and is easily worth the additional step, it isn't any more time added to steam a LP side. Some used vinyl still needs enzyme cleaner. Steam & Deep Cleanse doesn't remove every biologic gunk of fingerprints, mold and food (?) smudges.
Overall, steam works for me. I don't have any problem maintaining steam pressure as it only takes about 20 seconds to cover a side. The only down side is the increased consumption of Nerl water to fill the 220ml tank. |
Hdm i kind of evolved my lp cleaning method in the past 2 years. I was strictly manual with using Disc Dr.s wash with locally bought distilled water along with MFSL brushes on a large lazy susan. I also used a small shop vac with the little attachment and a cotton cloth covering the opening. Then i went with Walkers Prelude system still using my manual method. I broke down and bought a 16.5 and really glad i did, along with Walkers cleaners. When i switched to Walker i marked the outer cover with a W so i know which i cleaned and rinsed with Walkers water. And at that time i could hear a difference for the better rinsing with Walkers. I bought some Audio Intelligence cleaner and water not long ago. And it was that water i used in my first steam cleaning. Like i said above steaming takes a lps sound farther for better sound IMO. I will most likely steam rinse my lp collection, though i will be getting 5 gallons of Nerl water on my next order for that job and hopefully more lps out there i may get in time.
Jahaira please get back to us on your findings.
Many thanks for the input guys. |
Stltrains: If you have any records that were cleaned with any method/cleaning solutions that did not use ultrapure water as the final rinse/step, I think you will find very clearly that going over those records using the Nerl water as a rinse and steaming with the Nerl water when it arrives will result in better sound quality and quieter records. |
Stltrains, good question.. A friend who bought the steamers yesterday asked me the same question an hour ago. Since my cleaning methods are manual, I will try my best with one of my cleaned and most noise free records. Will report lately.
That same friend is going to visit another good friend tonight with the Perfection Stemaer and they will clean a few records to compare them with our friends Loricraft + Audio Intelligence cleaned records he have. I have seen the Loricraft in action and it's amazing what it can do for a dirty record. Problem is, it cost over $1,500.00 and that's a lot of chunk for me... :O(
They will contact me with their results and will see how including the steaming worked for his method.
Jahaira |
Heres a question for you guys and gals, We all know that lps we buy need the whole clean routine. My question is lps we already have cleaned by other than steaming methods. Has any one gone over those cleaned lps and made one or two passes with the steamer as a re rinse. Did you get better sounding vinyl.
I have some Nerl Ultra Pure Reagent Grade Water coming for cleaning and steaming. Will continue my steaming at that time. |
70's friend... you said: "But the bad thing about both of them is they don't maintain full pressure for very long. You have to stop frequently to let them build pressure back up because with continued use they just seem to "run out of steam"......... :-)".... an it does :-(
Like you, I found that clarity, wider staging and spatial information is improved a lot. Not to mention that the needle is a happy camper after playing a record :^) Debries? NADA, NOTHING... The grooves, like you said, looks well defined and shinny.
So far, pops are reduced and backed a lot with a lower noise. They are not eliminated but not as intrusive as before.
Jahaira |
After reading through this thread, I had to give the steaming a try. I bought the Perfection from Walgreens this past weekend. I'm also using a device that I highly recommend called the Groovmaster from a seller on Ebay. It protects your labels from everything and also gives you a handle to hold while cleaning. If interested, just search Ebay for "groovmaster"(yes the "e" is supposed to be missing, and no I'm not the seller or affiliated in any way, just a satisfied customer).
Here's what I do, and I'm liking the results so far-
After clamping on the groovmaster, I steam both sides of the album, then wipe lightly with a microfiber towel to remove excess moisture. I am using Phoenix vinyl cleaner with enzymes, in a spray bottle. Spray both sides just enough to cover completely, then I spread the fluid with a 3 1/4" short bristle artist brush($3.79 at Pat Catan's). I leave the fluid sit for 3 minutes then steam blast it off both sides, making sure to remove the cleaner as much as possible.
The groovmaster then comes off, and I put the album on my Nitty-Gritty to vacuum dry. Each side then gets another blast of steam followed by vacuum and I'm done.
I'm not going to exaggerate or over-hype the results, I'll give it to you as I see it. While it doesn't take an album from "too noisy to listen to" to "dead silent background", I believe in some cases it does help- "some" being the key word here. What I think it does do almost always, is improve the sonics considerably. I've cleaned 6 or 7 albums this way so far, and I'm really liking the results. The sound really seems to "open up", the improved clarity is quite noticeable. Also, after this treatment, the albums look incredibly clean, I've never seem them so deep and dark black with a delicious luster to the finish(hows that for choice of words? Could I be a salesman?) The grooves are also more noticeable on the surface.
About the steamers- I also have a Shark handheld steamer that I bought a while back from Sears, and I don't like it too well. It spits and sputters too much, and has less pressure than the Perfection. But the bad thing about both of them is they don't maintain full pressure for very long. You have to stop frequently to let them build pressure back up because with continued use they just seem to "run out of steam"......... :-)
So that's my story, your results may vary. Thanks to all of you who have contributed to this thread, it's been quite interesting reading and very helpful.
Oh, I forgot one thing- at the moment I'm using r/o water from my local grocery store. They have a machine there, refills cost $.29 per gal. I don't seem to have a source around here for anything better and the nearest Pep Boys is an hour away. But I'll keep looking. |
the statement is somewhat true. in a perfect distillation, the mineral stay in the water, but in the steamer there will be small droplets of water entrained in the steam. Hence the cleaner the water, the cleaner the steam. In commercial applications in making high quality steam, boiler manufacters recommend demineralized/RO/ or better water quality to make the steam |
I too purchased a Perfection steam cleaner at Walgreens and got great results. One day I wanted to clean a record and the Perfection was not turned on, but our steam iron was sitting on the ironing board still hot, so I added distilled water to it and used the steam setting.
Same result! Very fine mist of steam, very clean record.
This good news for me because it's one less piece of stuff to keep in my small workshop. Also the iron shuts itself off after 10 minutes or so.
Kirk |
I might be showing my stupidity but surely steam shouldn't carry any of the solids out of the steamer - they should stay in the steam just as a kettle in a hard water area furs up? |
I cleaned 3 records today. One was a NF++ Pete, Paul and Mary from 1968, the worst one in my collection. It is so bad, that you just heard tics, tacs and pops so loud that you can't resist. After steaming it and do my thing, I can said, it's listenable now. The noise is still there, but softer and the music and voices are much better. I also did a Jackie Terrason and Ruben Blades records. Both sound great with much less noise and can play them at a higher volume. I can said the noise is non-offensive and you can deal with them. Once you steam a record, they look like new albuns.
It will take a bit more practice to master the steaming technic but itsn't that complicated neither. A tool I use and reccomend to you guys is to buy a Lazy Susan from WalMart, at the kitchen accesories section. They are about 13-14" circunference and made out of wood. Just turn then, take out the screw ( with care not to loose the small bearings). Then drill a bigger hole, enough to use a new threaded screw that can be used with the record hole. Set everything again and use a round cap/wood/top whatever do the trick, and clamp it. This will protect your record label, your hands and you could turn/spin the record around for scrubbing and steaming. If you have an extra rubber mat around use it between the record and susan. This makes everything much easier. |
You can find a video on Youtube where a person cleans a record with Windex and a paper towel....you can imagine the flames!! May I suggest recording a steam cleaning, explained and nit views of the process. This might start the revolution!!! I just bought my steamer today and found some water for $0.99/gal which is from pure natural sources from my island, distilled, R/O, carbon filtered and few more things more...The catch is, it's from my local Walgreens in PR.
Jahaira |
Gracias Crem1. I will get one steamer(from my local Walgreens) and water ( from PepBoys) tomorrow and clean some of those offensive records... :)
Jahaira |
According to Jim, its the water product to use cleaning LPs and should be used in all steam cleaning applications. As for # 3 ,I suppose, the correct answer is that commmerical applications also use R/O + water.
As I have noted before, many folks have said that they can not find anything but distilled water in there hometowns. If that is so,than use what you can find and improve when you locate a water upgrade. Should your steaming tank show signs of grime build-up, replace the unit to be on the safe side. |
Crem1, do you know if it has to be with (1) the best water to clean the records, (2)it's harmless for the steamer/record and (3) dedicated to that use for industrial/commercial companies. Thanks,
Jahaira |
Readers, I have been contacted by a engineer who has an extensive backround in commercial uses of steam. He has strongly recommended that only deionized , R/O water be used to steam & clean LPs.
Without getting into a long drawn-out explanation , this gentleman appears to have much to offer on steaming issues, so please consider his recommendation. |
TDS or Total Disolved Solids from Wickipidia..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_dissolved_solids |
Charlie, you very much deserve it! |
Tom what interesting info on water. I am a big drinker of Ozarka Spring water. Dont know if my local market has there Distilled water. Your tests dont lie and .3 TDS is i would think good enough. Like you i have two vac towers for my 16.5 and use 17h brushes for cleaning and rinsing.
Charlie again word of mouth and threads like this have made learning whats a better way in accomplishing things so easy and in this case money saving. Thanks again |
I've been using steaming as part of my record cleaning for a couple of years. (I have a VPI 16.5 which works well for me.)
Early on I realized one of the secrets to successful cleaning is to keep the scrubbing brushes and vacuum tube strips as clean as possible. I found the best frequency is to clean the brushes and strips after every 2 to 3 records. The water I use to clean and rinse the brushes is the same as I use to clean records.
For information I use different brushes and vacuum tubes for each cleaning step. I only routinely use steaming as a last step after I've rinsed with pure water. I used to steam as a first step but gave it up as the whole process was getting too time consuming.
Needless to say I use a lot of water, so I decided to undertake a little survey to find cheap pure quality water. First I bought a cheap meter to test for TDS (Total Dissolved Solids). I figured these are the nasties which one wants to avoid for record cleaning. Second I bought drinking water from supermarkets and also some battery water from auto parts store. I also bought a cheap distiller on e-bay to make my own water (Not really cheap at $130. But what the heck, it's all in the name of Sound Science;-)).
A few years ago I also installed an "under the kitchen sink" RO (Reverse osmosis) unit. So I added home brew RO water to the survey.
Here's what I found:
Municipal water(straight from the faucet)- 234 ppm TDS
R.O. water (Home made)- 10.1 ppm TDS
Peak Battery Water - 1.5 ppm TDS
Ozarka DISTILLED Drinking Water - 0.3 ppm TDS
My home made distilled water - 0.4ppm TDS
So I now purchase DISTILLED drinking water for my cleaning. Note: it must be distilled water. In my area the most easily available is Ozarka.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Tom |
You guys are choking me up ... I have never felt more honored that to know I have made brothers/sisters around the country/world that are enjoying there record collections more because of steam cleaning. Really, after attempting to share my ideas for sooo long and now to find so many who are learing to re-love there record collections... Money doesn't mean a thang ... Lets keep it going, Charlie |
I have been using and touting R/O water. It's purer than distilled, which is plenty good enough. Buy it at the tropical fish store for fifty cents a gallon. You will not need any expensive record cleaning fluids, if you use R/O. Trust me. |
Do any of you have any sources for pure water. I have done some research on line and it seems that ultra pure h2o can be rather expensive. I went through a 16oz bottle of Walkers water for 21 lps.
Not trying to get to crazy with this but after searching water here on audiogon several have reported differences in there lp play back by what water they used to steam with.
After hearing several more of my steam cleaned lps its looking like starting with my favorites, all will have to be steamed. The clarity and absolute full sound i am hearing is startling. There is certainly no denying the audible improvements with steamed vinyl.
I say thanks again Crem 1 |
Gregm is you are interested in a EV-1 i have one for sale. If you would like it get in touch. |
Gregm - Do consider adding a record cleaning machine to your process. KAB Electro Acoustics offers a manual "machine" the EV-1 that you use with your home vacuum cleaner. It is vry affordable (<$200). Sucking "gunk" out of the grooves after steaming should help eliminate what you are collecting on your stylus. |
Another convert. After seeing this thread on top for months i had to give steaming a try. Went to Walgreens and got the Perfection steamer for 29.99. Used the long nozzle with the bent adapter. The only worthy water i had was from my Walker system. I had enough to clean 21 lps. I used my 16.5 with two mats, side one on both steam vac, apply cleaner scrub steam scrub vac, steam scrub with a different brush vac, steam one more time vac, flip remove mat and repeat. Put lp on a plate rack do another. Package in MFSL sleeve and ready for play.
From the lps i have played the improvement in clarity is very audible. I will need a better water source for less cash.
Crem1 many thanks for finding new ground in record cleaning. A step in the right direction for better sounding vinyl. |
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