DAC Question: Delta-Sigma vs R2R

@big_greg 

+1

@big_greg I largely agree with everything but would qualify the second part of your first sentence

most likely due to lack of exposure to better sounding gear or convincing themselves that they can get the "best" at a fraction of the real cost of entry.

Lets forget this notion of *best* for the moment.  Yes, you wisely put that word in apostrophes too.

What is surprising is that is that in fact some exceptionally good DACs are indeed available for the budget minded. @lanx0003 mentioned a couple - the Topping and especially the SMSL. A few hundred bucks new.

The R2Rs that I and others have mentioned are perhaps 5 to 10 (how long is a piece of string? "the cost of entry is more than an order of magnitude more than my budget allows" yeah.) times the price of an exceptional sigma delta DAC..

For the well known declining incremental sound quality, and even that may be psycho acoustic at the levels we are talking about.. Depending on the supplied aliasing filter chosen, frequency curves are generally pencil flat in the audible range. 

Barely perceptible noise floor given that THD and noise is usually below audible hearing at < -120db, sometimes < -140db. Blackness.

Any sound signature is possibly the presence of audible harmonics slipping through (hello R2R!). Other things like connections (people who use USB sometimes have questions here, for example) and other hardware stuff, I dunno.

I’ve the new SMSL VMV D2 in my setup, replacing my Benchmark Dac3 HGA, both delta sigma but with very different implementations of differing chip sets.  Both r really good music makers with enough features to keep the serious hobbiest happy.  Both can act as excellent preamps on their own, a real plus in a minimalist system, SMSLs 4499 implementation offers the opportunity to add a ddc with its I2S input and a clock frequency selection and input, so the new generation of disaggregated components at affordable prices can be utilized to squeeze out additional performance on an already sweetly voiced dac.  Good stuff.  The Dac3 remains a ‘stud’ offering up plenty of muscle if not quiet the refinement.  Benchmark stacks just sound right and the older ESS implementation still sounds terrific on cd quality material.  Like choosing vanilla or chocolate ya gotta get the fundamentals right for the longer term utilization and for me that means features and flexibility.  
I’ve also both Hestia and Athena Denafrips preamps in my rig cause there is more than one way to get class A body and tone into an audio rig.  So far, I wouldn’t change a thing…(-; 

Hi All,

First off thanks to everybody who took the time to provide me feedback/advice, this was invaluable and I have researched everything sent my way. Especially thanks to fellow tinnitus folks. Getting quality advice about my specific situation was important and I don't know of anywhere else I could have receive that input.

Based on these discussions and what I learned from researching I think my path is:

1) I really needed to do more critical listening to my system to understand strengths and weaknesses, I am not a critical listener, I just melt into the music. I am not sure I am in a good position to do this right now as I've been listening to the same system for a long time. I think getting a different DAC in will lead me to learn much more about my system.

2) I need to have a better understanding of what is important to me. Been doing this since the thought first started rolling in and I have learned I am not a detail hound. I have learned that what really excites me is having natural tones and depth of tone to my music which puts me in a realistic setting. That combined with a broad and well defined sound stage to paint the picture. Those are 1 and 2, all else is great icing on the cake.

3) I have created a short list of components to try based on what I heard here and learned from my research. I am looking to try the following as they seem to fit my budget, system cost and unanimous praise:

• MHDT Labs Orchid
• Merason Frerot
• Border Patrol
• Denafrips Ares II
• Shiit Gungnir

The challenge is finding ones to listen to. I basically live 100+ miles away from quality audio stores and the cost to drive there and back, the lost day, and then not hearing it in my system, not in my room, and all that is probably not optimal. If I can get a fair deal, I listen to one for 2-3 months if I like it and then resell it and probably will cost me less than a tank of gas and provide me a relevant experience. It also allows other to move up the food chain while I nibble at the bottom.

What I think makes sense is to just pick up the next good deal used and see what it does, and then for some of the items such as the Schiit or Denafrips, if I really dig it it could lead me upstream. So take the path of opportunity.

So honestly, this may all sound like an obvious path, but this discussion has given me the confidence to take it.

Thanks and Ill probably chime back in soon for more advice once I learn more.

Much appreciated

Good thread...  You write... " I need to have a better understanding of what is important to me."   This is not a trivial process!.     What 10  or so pieces of music do you listen to to make that determination. What does each piece require the equipment to do?    Next step is to get your characterization down in words and know that when you listen to the same equipment and music a week later you draw the same experience and words with recordings you know.     This is the process of Distinguishing  "what is important to me"    Then you can plug in a new piece of equipment and hopefully distinguish the characteristics that you hear using the words that you know what they mean.  ...     You write you value " having natural tones and depth of tone to my music"    Only you can know what that means... but the reality check for communicating is Live Music and this  grounds sound reproduction in the world we share.    Checking in on a skilled singer without amplification is a must.   (God I miss live music in covid)    This  allows some communication with others about you what  hear and what you like and gets you feedback that is relevant. ...    I would try to resist the A B testing phase until you are comfortable with your characterizations.    When you do get around to  making a selection of A or B ....   consider you are choosing  A or B  and selecting one and not deciding on A or B to select one...      If you are deciding.... the root of the word is cide... ie matricide... homocide..   try not to kill off one...   and avoid the  better or worse framework.... try I prefer A over B because I value the  xxx on these pieces of music and that is what I choose.   This advice came from my visits and purchases at  Lyric Hi Fi in NYC.   I came to love the Burrmeister Sampler 2 disk that was the Lyrics go to  music selection because the range of music covered all of the bases to challenge equipment.   

So... that is a lot easier said then done! .... Now, the other half of  the value of a shop like the Lyric is that the more you know about what you want, the better the guys could point you in the right directions.    I have this vivid memory of my first visit and  walking in and wanting to A B Dacs on a Saturday afternoon.... and the older owner, one of the most well known guys in high end audio walking by overhears my conversation and asked... How would I know?  Ha 10 minutes wasn't gonna do it...waste of my time.       so... "and then not hearing it in my system, not in my room, and all that is probably not optimal"  was exactly the point he made to me..  In those days,,   all we had were ladder dacs and the key was how to filter the output.....  A few more 200 mile trips to NYC and my ability to select ANY DAC was just a total stop.... Bottom line...  Lenny said...look... this DAC just came in trade yesterday.... buy it.... its brilliant and a steal...   Trust me! ... And so I did....   He was right... and I have spent the rest of my time in the hobby doing the fun hard work of critical listening using my Burmeister Sampler disk!... AND trusting some people who's judgement I trust. Both of these gears work for me..  The brilliance of choosing a purchase versus killing off 3 pieces I considered and keeping the 4th for me is the freedom from second guessing  and my enjoyment is much much better.   Have fun!

Friends don’t let friends buy archaic digital gear.  Everything in our signal chains endures, but not DACs

As @tcadden brings up… learning about sound and what you want is critical. I highly recommend this book:

The Complete Guide to High-End Audio

Book by Robert Harley

 Knowing the terminology and match your observations to each of them makes learning much quicker. This allows you to identify and articulate what you want and to read professional reviews.

@ noske :

The folk at Holo are disciples of certain funky marketing gimmicks which do not impress me.

Could you please specify in detail just what those ’marketing gimmicks’ Holo Audio employs are? Thank you!

I bought my Holo Audio ’MAY KTE’ DAC from Kitsune HiFi, Holo Audio’s U.S. dealer, which is based in Oregon. I had no issues whatsoever with either the dealer, Kitsune, or the delivery of my purchase.

no trail periods her in Thailand.  you buy it, you own it.  no refund unless its defective.  boy do i miss the States in that regard.

@mod_asored I recently purchased a Benchmark DAC3 HGC, and am delighted with it. Just passing along a good 3rd party experience, if Benchmark is on your list to consider. I believe one can buy on Amazon Prime w/30 day return period

Jonwatches,

I have a friend who really loves his Benchmark3. It is a little out of my price range right now. But like all audio purchases, I always seem to end up outside my price range. So I am watching for what pops up.

Thanks for the recommendation.

Hi Guys, An update for those who gave me the great advice.

As I said, I have no audio stores nearby and if I started driving to them I would be wasting a ton of money in gas and still not know what it sounds like with my gear and in my room. I decided the prudent option was to buy used at a fair price and listen for an extended period of time and all transaction fees will be less than gas and travel time.

About 6 weeks ago I was lucky enough to score a Denafrips Ares 2 from a great seller, one of the DAC's on my list. I was blown away, now I didn't want to come on and proclaim the win while in the "shiny new toy" phase, so I waited for a while, kept listening, I can officially say I am blown away. It actually caused me to also go get a Innuos Zen Mini and LPSU to pair with it, like I said wow, even better now.

What happened is a match to how I listen to music, not so much this DAC better than that DAC. What I noticed is when i am really relaxing and listening, I am 50% brain on whole song and the other 50% just tuned into one specific performer trying to experience the song through their performance. I also noticed that is how I listen to live music.

What seems to be the most important to me is not all the detail, but the natural and accurate tone of the instrument I am listening to, if that makes sense. It does to me and I am now in a much better position to know what I am looking for, not just DAC but in all my gear.

So is it the Ares 2 or is it just the high quality DAC?, is it synergy, I don't know, but I think I am gonna continue watching for another of the items on my short list and try flipping the Ares to see, but I am in no rush as I am still paying it off and I am loving it.

Thanks again for all you guys for pointing me in the right direction. It is very much appreciated.

OP,

Congratulations . You said what is important to you is: “but the natural and accurate tone of the instrument I am listening to” 

Yes… I second that. Every component you own effects the output and not concentrating on just detail can lead to a more satisfying system sound.

In my search for a new DAC, I have found some highly regarding R2R Ladder DACs in the 3-5 K price range a bit thin sounding and a bit raw ( particularly with rock music ) .

Is that just my ears? or has anyone else experienced the same.

Do I need to look at higher priced R2R?

@mdrone 

I don’t find thinness an attribute of any particular design, but of the overall quality (and typically expense) of the unit. A really good designer will carefully select all the components as well as the design so as to optimize the sound. Typically as you get into better DACs… let’s just say >$6 or $7K the overall presence, bass, and natural sound quality get better as well as the noice floor getting lower… revealing more detail.