Cryogenically treated cables
audiozenology Cryogenic materials treatment involves little shock. You don’t dump it in liquid. It is a vapour exposure. It is not going to have a "sound". Copper conductivity is barely impacted and even if you caused some damage to the dielectrics, it would make 0 difference at audio frequencies. I would bet more cable to cable variation than cable to cryoed same cable change. >>>>>You say Hello, I say Goodbye! Take copious notes. |
If cryo treatment always improve the sound why don’t ALL high end manufacturers cryo their cables by default? Treating cables in bulk, cryo treatment would probably only add $10-20 per cable. There would be plenty of profit left with their $500-1000+ wire. Why are they selling uber-expensive cables that are not the best they can make and could be improved for $20? |
Cryogenic materials treatment involves little shock. You don't dump it in liquid. It is a vapour exposure. It is not going to have a "sound". Copper conductivity is barely impacted and even if you caused some damage to the dielectrics, it would make 0 difference at audio frequencies. I would bet more cable to cable variation than cable to cryoed same cable change. |
Hi, Michael, I’m giving you the benefit of twenty years of cryo experience. I was one of the early pioneers. Are you giving me a little jab 🥊 for my Ultra low mass portable system? Isn’t that a conflict of interest? 😀 Is my system even lower mass than the Michael Green standard? Total SONY Walkman/ Sony headphone system mass 1.5 lbs. Jealous? |
I find cryo generally provides more information, not less. Cryo improves the performance of all materials. There is no reason I can think of why cryo would degrade the sound of anything, with certain caveats. There is a waiting period for cryo, maybe several days, to let the CDs or LPs or tubes or whatever recover from thermal shock of cryo. During that time the sound can be quite bad sometimes. Also, avoid cryo that involves immersion in liquid nitrogen. You can get quite good results using the home freezer, and you don’t have to wait a week or two to get your stuff back from the cryo lab. |
Well this didn’t age well ... clearthink |
We are now discussing to do presentations with Conservatory students. Manufacturers with who we do business are interested in it. This is the best and only way to show and teach people how voices and instruments sound and how big they are in space. The idea is to start with a voice or a person who plays an instrument. After this, we want to let people hear how a Tru-Fi system plays the same kind instrument. In the end, emotion is the only key to success in audio. This is why we want to show people how human emotion works regarding music. So it makes sense to use real voices and instruments for that. |
I sold and tested many different brands in cables in over 20 years of time. When you compare and test cables you often can hear that a manufacturer puts the focus on a certain frequency range. This makes people often think for example that the low frequencies increased in power and control. But they forget that these choices often create other limitations. In other aspects of sound. I will not use names anymore. Often 'emphasis' cables are not able to create a huge level in 3D. And they often can also not reveal diversity in height like brands who are what we call; more linear. This means that all frequencies are being equally carried out. |
ieales"Anyone with an LCR bridge can measure cable parameters, enter them in a calculator along with the electronics I/O / speaker parameters and calculate the values" Yes this should not be too difficult for anyone with basic, fundamental, rudimentary technical skills and that is why it puzzles my that bo1972 hasn't shared such details to accompany his claim except it doesn't really surprise me because bo1972's understandings are much more limited than he is ever willing to admit, acknowledge or accept. |
Anyone with an LCR bridge can measure cable parameters, enter them in a calculator along with the electronics I/O / speaker parameters and calculate the values. If manufacturers were more honest, they would include LCR values in their 'specs' instead of fuzzy headed audiophile nonsense. See http://ielogical.com/Audio/CableSnakeOil.php |
bo1972"Most cables in audio are what we call; emphasis cables. That means that those who created them put the focus on certain frequency response. " That is quite a claim, assertion, and pronouncement please provide data on the FR measurements you have done on audio cables that confirm you're claim or are you saying this is just a belief that you have but haven't conducted the tests necessary to confirm it which is fine if that is the case. |
hemigreg Yes copper purity is paramount to make a few microohms decrease-but you can get 1000 fold improvement by upping gauge one size. even the cheap cca cable will show no active degretation if SIZED and terminated according to NIST and JAN spec. there are many papers and govt research on this. so now theri decision is to Not use cryo conductors in and space program,neclear reactor,wepons system,life support equipt. so why would any "sound equipt" benefit unless things are under spect to start with. >>>Audiophiles don’t really care very much what the Government does, or NASA or the military or life support. We do whatever we like. We are the Clash! 🤗 Besides NASA employs cryogenics routinely for space missions, liquid nitrogen and BEYOND. Anyone interested in higher performance materials would use cryogenic treatment. We ain’t gonna be treated like trash We got one thing We are the Clash What? We are the Clash It’s like a patch You can strike that match! |
yes copper purity is paramount to make a few microohms decrease-but you can get 1000 fold improvement by upping gauge one size. even the cheap cca cable will show no active degretation if SIZED and terminated according to NIST and JAN spec. there are many papers and govt research on this. so now theri decision is to Not use cryo conductors in and space program,neclear reactor,wepons system,life support equipt. so why would any "sound equipt" benefit unless things are under spect to start with. |
Ain’t nothin wrong with that action! Your freezer is effective, inexpensive, controllable and a whole lot quicker that sending stuff off to the cryo lab and waiting to get it back, which can take up to two weeks. 🔄 Another big plus ➕ is there’s no thermal shock involved with the home freezer. Nothin says lovin’ like something from the freezer! 🥶 There is always something in my freezer, CDs 💿 mostly, but also cassettes, cables, portable CD players, headphones 🎧 , etc. |
Most people forget.......how to refer. When you don't understand sound, you can not understand audio. Most cables in audio are what we call; emphasis cables. That means that those who created them put the focus on certain frequency response. But....a cable needs to be as linear as possible What all emphasis cables have in common is the fact that they all can not reveal all aspects of sound. And this can easily be proven by sound and stage. Even many fuses are emphasis fuses. And again the same limitations will occur as what emphasis cables show by sound and stage. It is very easy to change sound and even stage by adding or changing a part of an audio system. But......the question is does this changement create an improvement. So you need to be able to reveal and observe all aspects of sound within 1 tenth of a second. As your system needs to be able to reveal all those aspects of sound. It is the complexity of sound that makes audio so difficult to understand and adjust. But you need to understand all the different aspects which influence sound and stage. As you need to understand in detail what sound is and on which properties it is being founded. So even before you can judge one part of what you change in your system. You need to describe the full DNA (all aspects it owns and how these different aspects are being carried out) of each part in your system. After that, you need to describe in full detail the influence of the acoustic, electro-smog, magnetism and high-frequency noise on your sound and stage of your system. And it needs to be done independently. Without this audio is 100% pure gambling. |
In space, nobody cares about cables from refrigerator.👨🚀 "In space no one can eat ice cream, glubby. 👨🚀" Predictable as usual, you may not be correct. "https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/how-astronauts-will-get-some-real-ice-cream-180964558/ As always, use this piece of knowledge during your next attempt to be witty and funny or at some cocktail party. You know, things insiders from NASA like to talk about. |
Geez, even a tiny little fuse sounds better after cryo. Cut me some slack, Jack! We don’t need a doctorate dissertation to tell us cryo is good for any type of wire. Cryo makes things perform better. I wish I could tell you, gentle readers, how many things improve the sound after they’re cryo’d. Unfortunately, it gets into areas I fear are beyond scope and might be a little bit too much for the naive and those just starting out. 😳 I certainly don’t wish to frighten or snow anyone. None of this stuff is in books. Hel-loo! That’s why the -10 F home freezer is way more mysterious than - 300 cryogenics. Don’t steal, don’t lift Twenty years of schoolin’ And they put you on the day shift Look out kid They keep it all hid Better jump down a manhole Light yourself a candle Don’t wear sandals Try to avoid the scandals Don’t want to be a bum You better chew gum The pump don’t work ’Cause the vandals took the handles |
There have been papers, by real scientist (no for real), that have shown a several percent increase in conductivity in copper conductivity at room temperature after cryogenic treatment. What I don't remember (was a while ago), was what the initial purity of the copper was. I would not be surprised if the results are dependent on copper purity, hence if you are starting pure, there may be virtually no change. No indication this had any affect at all on high frequency, or any other useful property. glupson2,772 posts11-06-2019 9:38pm"...the electrical activity in copper when brought back to room temp will not be any better than with no treatment."Finally! Thank you! |
hemigreg The electrical activity in copper when brought back to room temp will not be any better than with no treatment. ive done cross sections of copper/gold/silver/plat/irridium/plutonium/thorium/ etc in research for conductivity and transmission speed of the electron/hole pairs for semiconductor chip upgrades cause the time a Ghz signal enters a pc board to the time it hits the transistor junction in the processer does make a lag in the output. but that is only signifient in the GHZ freq range. totally silly effect in the khz and down. even high freq MRI magnets with cryo cooled power supplys are for the reason of lower resistance and no infulence in the resultant mri results- so if you think itsounds different its your $$ to waste. ive done it to liquid HE,H.O2, and colder.you may likely suffer more damage due to slip face kinda like embritlement in the lattice no matter how slow warmed up, the inital cold shock will offset the lattice a few minutes/deg. upsetting the outer 3-4 electrons orbit. yea. otherwise copper is ultra stabil electrically and mechanically. cryo for fe based elements is a totally different reason. >>>>Gee, that’s too bad. Must be mass hysteria or hypnosis. How else to explain all the many hundreds of thousands of cryod cables and fuses and vacuum tubes sold? Are all these cable companies that cryo their cables wasting their time and everybody else’s? Was NASA duped, too? OMG 😲 |
Look, if we want to argue about 18 year old threads we will! ... but thank you for reminding us what idiots we are. I will go and hang my head in shame now .... over and out (of this thread). thecarpathian702 posts11-06-2019 7:58pmYou guys realize this thread is 18 years old, right? And since the OP hasn’t posted anything new anywhere since 2001, I’m gonna go out on a limb and say he’s pretty much moved on......probably in more ways than one. |
its high electrical conductivity (59.6×106 S/m) and high thermal conductivity, second highest (second only to silver) among pure metals at room temperature.[10] This is because the resistivity to electron transport in metals at room temperature originates primarily from scattering of electrons on thermal vibrations of the lattice, which are relatively weak in a soft metal
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the electrical activity in copper when brought back to room temp will not be any better than with no treatment. ive done cross sections of copper/gold/silver/plat/irridium/plutonium/thorium/ etc in research for conductivity and transmission speed of the electron/hole pairs for semiconductor chip upgrades cause the time a Ghz signal enters a pc board to the time it hits the transistor junction in the processer does make a lag in the output. but that is only signifient in the GHZ freq range. totally silly effect in the khz and down. even high freq MRI magnets with cryo cooled power supplys are for the reason of lower resistance and no infulence in the resultant mri results- so if you think itsounds different its your $$ to waste. ive done it to liquid HE,H.O2, and colder.you may likely suffer more damage due to slip face kinda like embritlement in the lattice no matter how slow warmed up, the inital cold shock will offset the lattice a few minutes/deg. upsetting the outer 3-4 electrons orbit. yea. otherwise copper is ultra stabil electrically and mechanically. cryo for fe based elements is a totally different reason. taken from Cu atomic info What is Metallography? Metallography is the study of the structure of metals. It includes the techniques used to prepare specimens for examination, examining the specimen and interpreting the structures. Specimen preparation is an important part of metallography. A specimen must be appropriately prepared to ensure correct observation and interpretation of the microstructure. Specimen preparation consists of sample selection, sectioning, grinding, polishing, and etching. Adequate sample selection provides a statistically reliable description of the material quality. The number, location and orientation of the samples examined are important parameters in sample selection. Sectioning, grinding and polishing are used to prepare a flat specimen with a mirror like finish. Care must be taken during sample preparation not to introduce artifacts which lead to invalid microstructure interpretations. Sometimes it is beneficial to examine the specimen in the as polished condition. The as polished condition is useful for examining the microstructures of materials whose constituents exhibit large differences in light reflectivity after polishing. Porosity and inclusions are examples of features that are easily observed in the as polished condition. But most materials are etched to reveal the microstructure. Etching is a controlled corrosion process resulting form electrolytic action between surface areas of different potential. Etching reveals the microstructure of a material by selective dissolution of the structure. Specimens are then examined using optical and electron microscopes. There are also many other techniques used to characterize the structure of metals, but this article will concentrate on microstructural characterization. Please see the proof belowhttps://www.copper.org/resources/properties/microstructure/coppers.html |
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