Coping in an Age of Uncertainty

I agree entirely with Irishdog. The multi-channel discs out there, with the possible exception of Telarc's, are miserable. They are mixed poorly, and often sound no better than synthesized Pro-Logic. Along these lines, many surround recordings have that 360-degree quality that is completely unnatural and harkens back to the days of primitive quad or some of the early DTS releases. Music, by and large, comes from the front, and most, if not all, multi-channels force the rears to do the same work as the fronts. They do not carry mere "ambient" sound, which is what would make it more interesting, to actually "hear" the hall. Many of them, it is true, are not original DSD recordings, but rather re-mastered PCM sources, which, in some cases, have been upsampled, but nowhere near the level that would make a difference to anyone. And then there is the debate of whether DSD is actually better at all than high-resolution PCM (176.4 Khz/ 24-bit). Some of the very best engineers I have spoken with still swear by PCM for recording and mastering and only transcode to DSD for the sole purpose of creating a marketing buzz (viz. SACD). And then there is the other problem of whether you are actually hearing a DSD signal at all. Many receiver/amp/processors convert to PCM before sending it out, and some "universal" players do the same, so we are all back where we started from. Finally, there is other problem that the music industry is using the 5.1 standard, which was designed for movies, and there is a lot of debate of whether this is the appropriate set up for surround music. Some, like Chesky, are advocating for a 6.0 set-up without a center, but with "side-rears". Either way, I have been really disappointed with the bulk of the surround discs and have only been impressed with a handful of SACD stereo releases.

I owned the sony SCD-1 when it first came out...I own a Levinson 360s DAC and 37 transport now....I've since listened to possible replacements at my local audio salon and at home...short of possibly $20K plus gear...buy the Levinson and forget about the future...enjoy the present!!

Hello: Although I have purchased a number of SACD's and a few DVD- A's, I am disapointed in the audio quality of most of them. I am also noticing a number of disturbing trends. 1. Everything is now being released in "surround format", and this reduces the sonic quality of two-channel SACD playback. Has anyone with VU meters noticed the sub-sonic garbage level visible before the music starts. This must be harmful to the overall sound, if amps are attempting to reproduce it!! 2. Look carefully at the origins of the SACDs you buy. Very few are true DSD all the way through. Many of the master tapes are DAT 48Khz, or analog, or are edited on non-DSD equipment! 3. The vast majority of pre-amps, amps etc that can handle surround formats are oriented towards video and home-theatre, with many features un-needed and undesirable for pure audio setups!! The current issue of TAS features Harry Pierson raving about an audio surround system made up largely of hardware not yet available to ordinary mortals (i.e., non professionals). Have you tried to buy a Meitner processor??!!! Have you got the over 30 grand to buy the DCS Verdi...etc. etc. It would seem that truly proper reproduction of the best SACD and DVD Audio releases is only availaable to insiders in the industry and well-heeled audio critics. And this is a revolution??? I think they'll be growing coconuts at the north pole before most audiophiles are enjoying this "great revolution"!

Hi

My opinion is that new standards and new technologies generally bring advantages in terms of quality, but initially create the problem you mentioned. Well I decided to come down the fence and for $ 400 got a Philips 963SA that plays SACD, CD 24/192, DVD etc. I figured thet even if SACD does not work out I have an incredible CD and DVD player that sounds better than my Meridian 500/566 combo($ 3000+). At $400 all the problems you mentioned tend to fade away. To cut short, the secret is perhaps not to invest a large amount of money in waporware products.

Ern has a valid point. Was just reading about NASA's "old" computer files archived from Mars Voyager mission. No one is able to read them anymore. The machines that *could* read them have all been trashed ("who needs this old junk anymore?") the programmers are either retired/unlocatable, or are now dead. So these valuable data files are already useless. The scientist doing research was finally able to find file printouts & then had to pay people to re-key the data using newer machines & formats. No sense in archiving that either; before long those software versions will be outdated, & the files will again be unreadable because technology marches on & people don't think to re-reformat until it's too late. You have no idea how much important information has already been lost due to the "digital dark ages". Egyptians & their papyrus - an idea who's time has come back again.

Someone recently said that thousands of years from now archaeologists will be able to play LPs with a pine neeedle, while being baffled by assorted silvery discs!

its beginning to look like sacd is going to survive. it doesnt take a lot of money to try this format. the low end sony dvd/sacd/cdps are one way to economize.
i got a ns500v for $161 delivered, sacd sounds fine, dvd is fine, and redbook cd is XLNT! i read that sony upsamples the cd to dsd and thus avoids the filtration problem that happens when you filter near the passband. whatever, i am a happy camper. this is the best sounding cdp ive ever had in the house and the cheeeepest ive ever had. im not replacing all my cd inventory with available sacds so im avoiding that expense.
im building the sacd inventory SLOWLY, and now i can buy dts and dvda if i want because they have compatible tracks.
.......regards.......tr

All I know is that I am willing to bet....

Vinyl will outlast CD, SACD, and DVDa.

LOL

KF

Conceivably, with CES 2003 now open for business, some further clarity for all of us will be realized. In the meantime, the Audio Aero Capitole Mk. 2 is a compelling alternative for the full enjoyment of our vast CD collections. Run directly into a power-amp- it is remarkable. Watch for their new SACD player- it could be a monster !! As for SACD software- we can only hope that the catalog expands exponentially and preferably not only with titles officially sanctioned by the OTIS ELEVATOR COMPANY..

On the eve of 2003, WHERE'S THE MUSIC?

With all disrespect, how many music lovers are satisfied with the assortment of titles available on SACD (or DVD-A) as of December 31, 2002?

It reminds me of a joke that the owner of Wilson Audio supposedly used to tell. He claimed that he sold a $150,000 WAMM system to a well-to-do farmer in Nebraska who only owned 15 albums, 6 of them by Conway Twitty... and those were the good ones.

Personally, "Tony Bennett Unplugged" and Eugene Ormandy conducting the Cleveland Orchestra aren't my idea of great music in any format. Last time I looked, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the SACD titles available was a similar old chestnut from the Sony/Columbia archives, aimed squarely at casual listeners.

So far, SACD versus DVD-A is shaping up to be the war of elevator music formats!

Over a year and half later from when this post was originally started and you could ask the same question.

SACD and DVDA are crippled at the starting gate

1. People are not going to replace their CD collections.
2. Source material is too slow arriving in the marketplace.
DVD source material moved quickly into marketplace, I think
because of the DVD rental market.
3. Teen-agers won't fork out the cash - huge marketshare
4. CD replaced vinyl - audio quality didn't figure in. QED

In an age of uncertainty, I buy gear compatible with established formats in the marketplace - that is to say, those formats which are "universally available". I haven't attempted a 7.1 system, DVD-A, SACD, etc - not enough software to justify the expense. The cost to get into all of the latest formats (latest preamp for 7.1, added speakers and amplification, and the source units to make it work) vs. the benefits obtained is too expensive. I find that staying in a 5.1 system has given me much more bang for the buck. I like high quality used gear or closeouts for this reason - I get expensive sound with not so expensive prices.

cornfed

my solution

beef up the redbook setup

I went with an EVS Millenium II dac (incredible piece)
upsamples tp 24/192
and a Teac (Wadia) transport

I also bought an inexpensive ($300) Toshiba DVD/DVD-A player
I have done direct a/b comparisons on Steely Dan's new disc
it's a toss up

why go the universal route when I can enjoy DVD's today and the DVD-A. I doubt SACD will ever have music I like and $25 a pop when I can get new discs at $9-12 each, forget it.

so hedge your bets and spend little now
and see how it plays out

tom

They sort of invented it, so you can imagine what their position is. But they are very smart folks and all of the writings are worthwhile. Check out one of their product manuals online--awesome! You can switch upsampling on and off with the MSB Platinum and there's a big audible difference, for what it's worth.

There are several interesting technical papers on the dCs site, http://www.dcsltd.co.uk/, and one specifically addresses their position on upsampling.

Prfont; I agree with your position, ie let your ears be the judge. I do think that improved, up to date implementation of the up (or over) sampling technology, as well as improved "handling" of the signal in the analog domain is responsible for the improvement(s) in music quality/character when using these devices. Cheers. Craig

Hi. I'm returning to audio following a two decade hiatus. I wish to extend my gratitude to all of those who've posted to this thread. I've had the opportunity to read all of these posts without interruption and would characterize them as stimulating, provocative, and exciting! This is a passionate group. It's been a privilege to entertain the thoughts presented by each of you. Long live audio. -Sam

Hello all. Put together my first hi-end rig over the last year with the help of Audiogon. I went with an older Wadia 6, 19 bit, got it for $1400, same chassis as the 850 & 860. Can be upgraded to 850 status by Wadia. But running direct with my new Aerial 7Bs and used Threshold T200 it sounds incredible! Much better than I had ever dreamed. I know there are many who bash the digital volume control for loosing information but this set-up is aural nirvana I kid you not! So much hidden detail is revealed. I'm in the process or rediscovering my 700+ CD collection. In my opinion, you should consider a used hi-end cd player with really good transport mechanism (Teac in the Wadia 6, 850 & 860, Mark Levinson uses Philips I believe) then later you could upgrade the player or just add a more current DAC. Just a Newbies $.02.
Be seeing you.

Craig, i've read the "up& oversampling" thread, articles posted by Muse, Madrigal, etc.... and probably a dozen articles on upsampling dacs. No suprise that different sides come down with different opinions on whether this is a semantic difference or not. I'll admit my bias by saying that I intend on buying one of these units and letting my ears decide if I like it better than my certainly outdated 5 y/o player. One real difference, though is that on some of these units, the upsampling can be switched out(as its on a seperate chip), and you can decide for yourself whether it's for real or BS. Otherwise I'm in complete agreement, I already enjoy my 1000 or so CD's and would rather spend further $$$'s on expanding this collection (dramatically). I believe the many above posters on the wonders of SACD, but 2 years into its release it doesn't appear very promising on the software side of things.

I've said this any number of times: get yourself an HDCD compatible player Today! It's the only backward compatible format which makes all of your 16 bit CD's sound much better. There's much more 20 bit software available even Today than the competing "upgrade" formats.

.......yes, purchase is spelled purchase, not perchase-- sorry.

I'm in the camp with Trelja, Sedond, Samir, Snook2 and others who say "it's the software"-- right on! I've yet to see an SACD disc that I actually wanted to perchase. I have a great CD playback system already and 1,000 CDs that I really like. If SACD does take off, I would have no problem with setting a nice SACD player right next to my nice CD player. I don't see this position as "sitting on the fence"-- there's no software to buy! There seem to be some that still do not understand that up-sampling and over sampling, which has been used for years, are essentially the same thing. Look up the thread "Up & Over Sampling" from last summer. Cheers. Craig.

There's now just me and my Cornish Rex, Leeza, and she appears to be even less concerned about picture quality than I am!
Jim

I do not think there will ever be one great format so uncertainty will last forever. CD will be viewed by many as the last great format.

I think that CDs, HDCDs, XRCDs, Gold CDs, vinyl, mini-discs, DVD-Prologic, VCR recordings, CD-Video, Laser Discs, and 96/24 DADs will decline in the near future.

Growing in popularity is MP3, Windows Media, DVD-Dolby Digital, DVD-DTS, DVD-Audio, and SACD. We'll see more units with upsampling--even receivers. Probably next year there'll be something else (MP4?, Windows Media II?, 6.1?, 7.1?, quad?, Chesky's 6.0?). Interesting times.

ah, hence the 914 nut handle,video comes a far distant second to audio for me also.But if my family wants to watch movies,i make the effort to have decent sound and picture quality.there are a lot of old classics on dvd also,not just the latest blockbusters.Although not quite a porshe i do have an oo lightning that i drag race and beat new vettes with.It is the most fun you can have with your clothes on.Phillips is supposed to have a car sacd player coming out,but i would not be able to hear it in this particular vehicle.Iknow what you mean about obsessions,i always need more than one hobby,audio is just one.

Ears--- I think it's great that video has that importance to you. I suppose I'm very lucky in that the few movies I watch are quite satisfactory, to me at least, on my 19" TV set! In all honesty, I see very, very few movies advertised in which I have any interest whatsoever, whether watched on my set or on a screen as big as the side of a house, with detail like a fine color photograph. I've got enough obsessions already without adding video to the pile!
My only justification for switching to digital cable was for a greater variety of programming----primarily for Speedvision. Yeah----cars are one of my obsessions! Porsches specifically.

If I were into high rez video I would no longer be agonizing over the purchase of a 9000ES----it would already be in my rack!
Jim

The reason people buy and rent dvd sotware is because it is superior to crap digital cable and has dd and dts,and in the case of the sony 9000 over 500 lines of resolution.I personnally do not like music in multi channel or the video.But if you ever experience a good looking and sounding setup,so called digital cable is like cable in comparison.the 9000 just made sght clas aa right next to the cal audio 2500,and if they counted sacd sound quality it would be a class above the cal player.

Dekay----I'm in the same boat as regards DVD. I can't imagine why anyone buys movies today, or even rents them for that matter. I'm now on digital cable and there's more stuff available, either HBO, etc., or PPV, than I have time, or wish to take time, to watch. I know there are music videos of classical content, but the few I've seen are so contrived I have no desire to watch them, much less to own them.

I think I'll probably hold off buying anything right now, and see what Sony comes up with in the next few months. I've heard rumors about an SACD player in the $500 range. It's gotta happen sooner or later.

As far as uncertainty is concerned, I think the thing that ISN't uncertain is that SACD/DVD will take over, just as CDs took over from LPs.(I recently read that Doug Sax Mastering is selling their analog cutting lathes and gearing up for SACDs, so LPs may soon be in their final death throes.) I keep hearing of chips being the truly next big thing, but that's probably a few years away and will be really traumatic for many companies and consumers.
Jim

Jsbail: If I were interested in, or needed a DVD player (because I already have a DAC that I like the sound of) picking up the 9000ES would be a no brainer. If I were in the market for both playbacks - DVD/CD-w-DAC - (SACD would just be the icing on the cake). We have played less than 10 videos in 10 years, which is why DVD does not interest me. I would like to eventually use my CAL player, as a stand alone, in another system and will take a look at what's available then (as I would need another player/transport). Now to drive everyone crazy: Has anyone seen the Japanese (domestic) version of the 9000ES with the champagne front cover and case? There were a few auctions of this model on Ebay a while back and it was very striking (more so than a black box), IMO. I wonder if a dealer could order this version (which looked similar to the top of line Marantz model)?

Ok Dekay and 914nut, I see your point about no good sacd music. I needed a new dvd player anyway so its no gamble to me. I do believe the war is over and sacd has won, and we will see a lot of new music on this format.

I am stunned at the response to Kelly's thread. I had dumbly thought that I was one of the few still stewing on this issue. Of interst to my situation are the posts that say use the 9000ES as a transport -w- an external DAC (to boost standard CD playback) and enjoy both worlds. The only problem that I still have is that there are very few SACD disks that really interest me. It is, IMO, the resposibility of the manufacturers (not the consumers "sitting on the fence") to make this format readily available in all types of music. Without plentiful source material to listen to in SACD, what is the point? I play a lot of old crappy sounding CD's on a daily basis, because they have the "music" on them that I want to listen to. SACD source material is like having only one pair of shoes - they get old very fast.

Jsbail---my problem is not with the $1200 for a Sony 9000ES---it's with the fact that out of approx. 150-200 SACDs now available, there are maybe 8 (classical) that I would buy----many of which are of performances from back in the dark ages, and I'm not convinced all of those are worth resurrecting. To me that's not much justification for shelling out the money, especially with the whole situation up in the air as to what format will last. About a year ago, I bought a Wadia 830, and although there are more more expensive players around, it certainly can't be considered cheap. I hate to keep piling more and more redundant equipment onto the rack. I have expressed my feelings about the merits/failings of CD, SACD, analog, etc., under the heading "SACD vs. Analog". I'd like to get reactions to what I posted there. I think we've all reached a crossroad at which we can either sit down and wait, or make some move to keep the journey going. What sez ya?

Interesting article. Many of the Japanese companies are working together to build other 1-bit equipment like amps, radio transmitters, video processing, etc. One-bit technology is not only better--it's cheaper--and it's use it growing.

http://www.edtn.com/story/tech/OEG20010216S0053-T

I listen to the best possible sound all the time. Better than SACD, DVD-A, you name it. It is call live music.

I mainly bought the player for DVD/CD playback in a more convenient one box solution. The SACD was icing on the cake so lack of software right now didn't matter to me. If you are just wanting the SACD then it will depend on how much disposable income you are willing to spend on it. Once the players get down to the $400.00 mark there really is no reason not to at least try one out.

It surprises me that people who were willing to pay $3000 to $5000 or even more for a cd playback system to get the best sound possible are not interested in a $1200 player that will give them clearly superior sound.

Samir, Thats the best logic.

There are clearly to types of people ont this particular post. Those who want to enjoy the best sound ever: one persons said if you buy the Sony SACD you will at least get a sample SACD to play with. And those you want to best enjoy their music! I belong to this second group and therefore I really do not care about DVD or SACD or XXXXCD. I just want the best for my existing stock of music!

I agree with Sedond's point on software. Software is the whole thing. I don't mind spending money on a new player, as long as there is something available to play on it. As a question to everyone, what percentage of the music you buy would have to be on SACD or DVD-A before you make your jump to a new player? I am kind of thinking that for me it will have to be at least 20%.

After contimplating what direction I was going to go regarding my digital front-end, I decided to go w/ a Wadia 860x. Not only will it decode 24/96 through it digital inputs and serve as a great digital preamplifier, through Wadia's proprietary software based design will support future upgrades (I have heard that Wadia will possibly support SACD). This, coupled with the fact that it is the best redbook cd player I have heard made my decision a lot easier since I have 1000+ cd's. Personally, I believe it is still too early to tell what formats will prevail.

no_money, there is *some* winyl being currently released that i can buy - buena wista social club, & xtc's latest, to mention a couple. & the existing winyl inventory, combined w/listening to my optimised fm, gives me plenty-o-software to play with.

if/when there are decent $400 sacd cd-players awailable, i may nab one - that's yust what i'm waitin' for - along w/software to play on it. but, what i'm really waitin' for is a one-size-fits-all player. i'm turned-off by sony's 9000es not playing dvd-a. sugarbrie's last point is well-taken, at least by me...

Since the general public is buying DVD players by the millions, DVD-A has a large potential market which gives it an edge. This is why Windows won. IBM chose Microsoft DOS as its operating system. No company purchasing manager was ever fired for buying IBM. All the other computer companies either switched or died.

Sorry Sedond, I yust don't see winyl making a comeback. Have you had a chance to hear SACD in your system? If the rumors are true that Sony will be realeasing a player for $400.00 then it might be worth a listen at least. Just remember once you have *no money* you can't have any less.

i'm not on the fence, no_money - i'm squarely in the winyl camp. as for digital, as i said prior, my $500 cd-changer is no worse than cd-players up to $3k in my rig, and to spend any more than that, or to spend *anything* on a format w/little software i'm interested in, well... i yust got *no money*! ;~)

Yea, but as stated earlier, the 9000es cost about as much,or less then the cables most of us would run to a state of the art cd player such as the 860. You still get a great DVD player and you are supporting the format we all hope will win.(or maybe most of us) GET OFF THE FENCE OR TAKE YOUR BALL AND GO HOME!!!

Marklivias, please except my apology,i read your post to fast and agree, on cd playback the sonys are no giant killers and surely not the equal of yours.

Ears, Marklivia's point was that the SACD players do not play standard CDs as well as his Wadia. Was Widescreen Review saying that SACD playback betters the 860, or that redbook CD playbook on one of the Sonys betters the Wadia? I'm sure Marklivia will give you the former, but not the latter.

I had owned a Theta Data III, Genesis Digital Lens and a Theta Pro Gen Va upgraded to 96K. I also use a Sigtech DSP and a Z Systems unit. The last two years have seen VERY significant improvements in transports and DAC's. For example, the MSB Platinum is a major improvement over the Theta Pro Gen Va and the dCs is an improvement over the MSB. The dCs is also modular to handle the new formats. We listen seriously about 10 hours a week, usually 5 plus hours at a stretch. We will continue to upgrade our CD playback (and keep our vinyl rig) but I'm now only buying units that could upgrade to handle format changes.

Marklivia,not the 850 but 6500.00 860 is said to be bettered by sacd acording to widescreenreveiw,and i will stick with there opinion,as anyone who tells it like it is about dvd-a sounging terrible at the risk of advertising revenue has got my attention.