I am extremely interested in using the computer (Mac or PC) as a source for a digital playback. It seems to be the right direction for modern digital playback, a good alternative to the age old CDP, has endless potential and most convenient. So, I got an EMM DAC2 (retail $10000) with USB input and connected it to an Windows laptop via USB. My preamp, amp, speakers and cables are also of very good quality. Played some track on my system from the PC (used Audacity software, a very good and high quality software for sound processing). In 2 minutes I had to turn it off. It is just mediocre sound compared to playing the same track through a $1000 CDP(Sony SCD XA5400ES). It is almost like listening to an internet-radio through my PC speakers. I was wondering what happened to my first rate sound system ? Later I replaced the Windows PC with a Linux based MacMini, hoping that I will get the result I wanted. But it did not improve much. I did not like the outcome. My listening experience with the computer set up was 4 minutes(2 with PC and 2 with Mac) total. Since then I have gone back to using the same old CDP. I think I blame on the USB interface for this failure. The USB interface has not come up to the state of the art of a modern CD player. I did not try other interfaces purposely. No High-Res, only 16bit/44.1 audio files. I dont listen to SACD. Fire Wire to USB, USB to SPDI/F, Fire wire to HDMI, Firewire to SPDI/F, and almost an infinite combinations of patch up ideas are out there. But I dont like a patch up solution nor do I like to compromise the sound in favor of convenience.
I have heard many audiophile friends changed to computer based playback system many years ago for good and they are happy too. But I am not convinced yet. I am eagerly waiting for computer audio to catch up. I am sure it is in the making but it still has to go quiet a long distance.
Drubin - guys getting into PC audio are using USB as they don't know any better. Lots of misinformation and companys trying to make a sale. I think anyone who truly understands computers, busses, etc can easilly understand why USB is not proper for audio. The guys that have been running usb servers for a while now are going back to CD players. To me, that is abandoning USB.
Cerrot, You make a good observation. Ultimately people will migrate back to what sounds best to them. At some point in time reality will overtake hype. Charles,
What are they supposed to use instead of USB? Cerrot, you've been banging the USB sucks drum for a long time here, but you're pretty much the only one. Saying USB wasn't designed for audio strikes me as like saying it wasn't designed to transfer documents with a lot of graphics in them. It's ample bandwidth for audio. What's the problem?
The guys that have been running usb servers for a while now are going back to CD players.
I know of nobody who has done that. It can be tempting to proclaim a trend based on a few anecdotal observations. I've certainly been guilty of that, as I think you may be in this case.
>>The guys that have been running USB servers for a while now are going back to CD players. To me, that is abandoning USB.
Cerrot, who are "the guys"? And are you certain that ALL of "the guys" abandoning USB servers for CD players, or is your allegorical statement in reference to something you heard regarding a friend of your cousin's dog groomer?
Topmostaudio, it is a safe bet that PC audio is here to stay, at least until something newer or better comes along. Industry and media surveys show that CD player use is diminishing across the board, but less so with the over 55 crowd. Most folks under 30 probably don't even have a CD player anymore, except for a laptop and even that hardware is diminishing rapidly.
PC audio (I include mac in that description as well) can sound very good, as good or better than almost any standalone CD player or transport. I used a Meridian 508.24 for years, and still have it. My mac audio setup sounds better, is more convenient (once setup) and is much more versatile.
What's the downside to PC audio? First, in short, it's a semi-compatible collection of third party parts and software. It's not as elegant or simple as a CD player, hence all the attempts to make a good, easy-to-use media player. I remember an A'gon member writing, years ago "I won't use computer audio until it is a simple as my [whatever] CD player. All I need is play, pause, FF and FB"
Secondly, PC audio can be expensive, especially if you listen to many of the so-called "experts" who insist that you need a USB/SPDIF bridge, or an external USB reclocker, or an uber-expensive Elbonian DAC w/ seventeen balanced inputs or other such audio frippery. You don't. Start small and simple, get used to managing your music files, and make upgrades as the sound dictates and your budget allows.
IMO, USB works well between PC/mac and DAC, but I have heard many great systems that used SPDIF or TOSLINK. If you have a PC or mac, order a Meridian Explorer DAC from audioadvisor.com. If you have a mac, download a copy of Bitperfect and play your files through iTunes. This is not an expensive suggestion, and many guys here may urge you to spend more. But try this first. If you don't like it, return the Meridian DAC to Audioadvisor and all you are out is shipping and $10 for Bitperfect. But I will bet that you will find it easy to setup, use and that it sounds pretty damned good.
Steve N: you are correct. the number of "samples" i've heard are limited to say the least. i'll also agree that a few PSA users are completely happy using USB. i'm not disputing USB can sound great. my problem is with all the flaming hoops one must jump through to achieve good USB sound. you've done a great job of explaining how important proper implementation is when using USB.....your many posts on the subject explain it thoroughly. my problem lies with the "proper implementation" itself.....and the cost (money and complexity)/reward proposition. i obviously don't get it.
that being said....i'll go back to my original statement... that USB is not needed to achieve great sound. it could be for some??.....it might be for other....but it's not always the case
The alternative to usb is a good sound card. If you study the USB porotcal, you will find that it transmits data in packets - not streams. That is the inherent problem. No one on earth can dispute that the usb bus teransmits data in packets. A soundcard, via spdif (or PC via fire wire even) transmits data is a stream. USB IS JITTER! (why would you build a house on sand when you can build it on something firm?)
As for examples of listeners abandaning usb, I follow many forums online and if you pick thrugh to the engineers (take a peak at linkedin - places where guys arent trying to sell stuff) you will see what I mean.
It serves no advantage to me to preach against usb other than to save someone out there time and money and not give up on pc audio after a short time cause it sounds poor). Its just gotten silly. Just try the spdif out of a computer and w/o fumbling arond with drivers, clocks, asychronwastemytinestuff, it will just sound awesome.
Donjr just posted a thread that mentions Sony is introducing a bunch of new hi rez products. Admittedly, I do not understand the lingo or the formats. Perhaps one of our digital techy members can translate what this means. Is this something new, or is the digital landscape still pretty rocky? Thanks
Bifwynne - the Sony product discussed is basically a CD/SACD player that uses computer files rather than disks. It works with standard CD computer files (16bit/44.1 KHz) as well as higher rez files like 24 bit/96 KH, 24/192KHz like DVD audio used. It also reads SACD files (DSD - 1bit/2.8MHz) and double resolution DSD (1 bit/5.6KHz) files. DSD format is becoming increasingly popular with the hi rez crowd, although there is little currently available in that format. The unit will convert LCPM (like CD, 24/96) to DSD. Some people think the converted DSD sounds better. HI rez LCPM files have become pretty common, but DSD files have not been, partially because it has always been very hard to rip SACDs and because DSD DACs are just becoming available.
In PC audio terms, it performs the tasks of a PC, a PC player (like iTunes, foobar, J River) and a LCPM/DSD DAC.
It might be a good solution for a novice hi rez person, if there is such a thing. For current computer audiophiles, my guess is they will stay with the flexibility of different software players, different DACs, different OSs, etc. You can do the same functions as the new Sony with, as an example, a Windows PC, J River Media Center software and a Mytek DAC. Some people will find the integrated unit useful. The Mytek DAC is $1,800 if I remember correctly, so the $2K price is in line.
Thanks Dtc. Still no industry standard --- sad. I hope the techies figure it out before I get so old I lose my hearing. LOL Until then, I'm holding with redbook CD.
been doing "hi res" since late 2009. in one respect....it's just like any other format. when done wrong(recording and/or gear)....it sounds bad. however...i would challenge skeptics to give it a listen when it's done right. it can sound truly amazing.
Computer audio can(and does) sound awesome. I think dbpoweramp beats the pants off of EAC, in my set up.
I just did a ridiculous overhaul on my windows system (a very sophisticated cleaning & tweaking) and found a ton of malware issues (I do run antimalware-long story) and once the cleaning/tweaking over, the PC rig sounds even better than it was. PC Audio has many facets - the OS being bombarded with malware being one of them, I have now learned.
I have EAC and DBpoweramp both. I find DBpoweramp a bit more user friendly, but as far as dropping disc to the hard drive or minor conversion, I really can't say one is better than the other.... but my EAC doesn't wear pants. I had tried numerous settings with foobar, jriver, dbpower amp and EAC. When all are configured properly and the free ware is kept up to date, I find them comparable in sound quality.
My issues with EAC were not sonic; I ripped a few hundred CD's and EAC didn't do as well as job with the meta data that I wanted. I re-ripped with dbPower and am thrilled, and am not looking back. EAC consistently missed a few tracks in the ripping process as well. Of course it could have been something in my PC, natch, but for $29 bucks, the headache is gone and I'm a ripping phool again.
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