Wu,
I don't question your findings in any way, we can only report what we hear.
The EML XLS and mesh were a complete joy in my system. Your system is very interesting and must sound exceptionally good. Did you move from Soulution/Dartzeel to SET? If so what's different and would you go back?
Charles, |
Wu and Joe,
Where did you get the Tong Sol 5u4g rectifiers, I'd like to try them.
Thanks, |
Charles,
Yes I think my current system is producing a sound I like. I have owned various speakers just like everybody else here, and solution/dartzeel shine with some speakers, but not with voxativ (according to both many reviewers and the manufacturer). This was my first SET and I am much more than happy with the match. I still miss the ultra fast speed of s oulution and the near perfect combination of musicality and power of dartzeel , but I would not go back to them as long as keeping the voxativ.
You can always ask Dave in Arizona Tube Supply in eBaynregarding the tungsol. I recently bought matched nos pair from him.
Best regards,
Wu |
Charles,
I bought my Tung-Sol 5u4gb's from Andy at Vintage Tube Services. He is very good and stands behind his tubes.
I don't think the Franks can use 5u4g's
Joe |
Joe,
I've used Andy before and he was fine I'll give him a call. I was under the
impression that the franks could use 5u4g or 5u4gb, I'll check that out.
TheSylvania 5931 sseems interesting as well.
Thanks,
Charles, |
Wu,
You have an exceptional and unique system, you should consider postlng it in the virtual systems with pictures.
Charles |
Charlie
As Joe said, I think you should have 5u4gb not 5u4g. One time I asked to Coincident whether I can use 274b tube in the 5u4g slot. His answer was like this: i do not recommend it since its voltage rating is less than a 5U4 Gb and the power supply of the Franks is very large."
Haha yes...probably I will consider the virtual system as you recommended.
Charlie/Joe
Have you ever heard anything good/bad about Audio Horizon's tube?
Best regards,
Wu |
I just received my Takatsuki TA-300b tubes. They sound very nice right out of the box. How many hours before they really shine?
I also bought the star sound tech. apprentice stands. They added clarity and good separation especially in the treble, but I lost some tonal density. They did improve after a week, but I'll give Robert a call. I think you can adjust the sound loosening or tightening the cones. |
Sonpro, my good friend just bought the TA-300B tubes. They sounded good out of the box, but took 150 hours before they sounded incredible. You are in for a treat. |
Hi Joe,
Congratulations! I have owned the Takatsuki-TAs for 2 years and loved
them immediately with my first listening encounter. I'd agree with Brf in
that by 120-150 hours they'll be fully burned in. You can genuinely enjoy
them during this process, as the sound just continues to mature and
improve. I happily rotate these Japanese gems with my EML XLS and AVVT
32b tubes. The Frankenstein MK II sings with all three of them.
Joe a subtle adjustment with your Apprentice stands may be
advantageous. In my system they increased transparency, clarity and
openness yet tone and body remained full and harmonically rich. Biggest
impact occurred with the speakers.
Charles, |
Thanks for the reply, guys! Looking forward to break-in.
Best,
Joe |
Snopro, the location of the Star Sound Audio Points under the component can make a great difference. If possible get one directly under the ac transformer. |
Tbg, I do have the 2 back audio points where the transformers sit. |
Snopro, don't think you need to put them in the corners. |
My listening levels are around 75 to 95db. Hi Snopro, Charles1Dad said to consult you on the FW J2 amp vs. a 300B power amp or mono blocks (in my price range) to drive >95db speakers at low to moderate levels. There’s a great discussion on Pass amps like the XA30.5 and 30.8 here https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/pass-labs-amps-and-avantgarde-speakers And please see my post there for more details about my room and listening situation. My two way speakers plus powered subs use Azura 425 horns and GPA Altec 416 midwoofers, and are at least 95db.
If you no longer have the J2 perhaps you still recall what’s its sonic characteristics were like versus a good 300B SET amp. Thanks.
|
Hi ajant,
I sent you a PM did you receive it. |
I think that Dracula amplifier would sound much better.
|
Joe,
I'm glad you were able to provide ajant what I know is valuable and thoughtful perspective.
Charles, |
Charles,
Hopefully, that's what these sites are all about my friend. To help each other with honest and valued insight.
I know I get that from you and others, but we should always try to listen for ourselves, if at all possible. |
Hello Joe, you've described the wonderful pairing of the Frankenstein and Eufrodites. Do plan to keep both your F.W.J2 and the Pass XA30.8 ?
Charles, |
Charles, I traded in the J2 for the XA-30.8
Best,
Joe |
Oh I see, I imagine both of them sound quite well with your Hornings.
Charles, |
Hey folks, I am coming to this game late (better late than never!), but I have recently joined the ranks of you Frankenstein mkII owners. I am running them with my Omega Super Alnico HO monitors, which are rated at 97 db, playing in a rather large room (25' wide x open in back, x vaulted ceiling that peaks around 12'). At 8wpc, wow, they sure play loud enough, and I like peaks in the low 90 db range!
Anyways, lots of good info contained here. I am looking for any updates / recommendations on the rectifier tubes that are being used with these amps, with either the EML 300bXLS and Shuguang Black Treasure 300bs, which I have. I like the RCA black plate 6EM7 over the GE gray plate 6EM7s that came with the amp. I have tried the Mullard GZ37 with the EML, but that seemed like a bit too much, and too edgy for me. Now using Sylvania black plate 5U4GBs, and the sound is smoother.
What others work "best" with the EML or BT? |
Hi 1markr,
Congratulations on being a Frank owner. They are wonderful amps. Like you said they really sound big and powerful for an 8 watt amp, don't they.
IMS, The Mullard GZ37 weren't edgy at all.
They have the nicest midrange and if anything they are a little rolled off in the treble compared to my Tungsol 5u4gb and Sylvania 5931.
I also changed the coupling caps to Jupiter copper foil, so maybe the difference of opinion.
I really like the Takatsuki TA-300b tubes the best in the Franks, but they are very expensive.
Enjoy the amps they are excellent!
Joe |
Well this just goes to show that people do hear things differently and outcomes can be system and people specific. I use the Mullard GZ 37 which replaced the stock RCA rectifier tube. The Mullard has been simply excellent in my opinion.
I have owned my Frankenstein MK II for 8 years and appreciate them more than ever. Superb amplifiers with appropriate speakers.
Charles |
Hi Joe,
I'm curious, how often do you switch between the Pass Labs and Frankenstein driving your Hornings? I have no doubt that the sound quality of your system is fantastic and very natural.
Charles |
Thanks for the feedback on the Mullard GZ37 guys... maybe I need to be patient with them, since the EMLs and the Mullards are relatively new with few hours on them, they have to "burn-in" properly. Any thoughts on how many hours it may take them to reach their full sonic glory?
@snopro , I am a huge fan of the Jupiter caps, and have already used them in at least 4 or 5 of my previously / current owned gear. Trust me, it's on my mind now for the Franks! I want to get used to the Franks for now before putting in the caps, but yes, that is a goal!
|
1markr,
For further clarification I also have the Jupiter copper foil capacitors in my Frankenstein rather than the stock Solens capacitors in the first stage coupling cap position. The 2nd stage is interstage transformer coupled. The difference between the two capacitors isn’t "hugh" but is rather noticeable and a worthwhile upgrade in my opinion.
Regarding the Mullard GZ 37 I’d say that 40 to 50 hours was sufficient. However keep in mind that you may just like another tube more than you do the Mullard . This is all so subjective when all is said and done.
Charles |
@charles1dad , I absolutely agree with you Charles, on all counts. Thx!
Mark
|
Hi Charles,
Actually I just put the Pass XA-30.8 in about a month ago and I'm really enjoying it too!
I like the Franks for their organic naturalness, texture and openness.
The Pass comes pretty close and is impressive for a SS amp, but isn't quite there. It has other qualities where it shines like a wider and maybe deeper soundstage. Goes deeper in the bass, it really takes control of those 16 woofers. It's really smooth and dynamic with a fuller upper bass to lower midrange. I like it better then the First Watt J2 that I use to have.
It also has very good separation and nice layering.
Which do I like better, that's a hard one to answer.
For Jazz and Vocals the SET for harder hitting music the 30.8
No hard decision. I'll keep them both!😉
Joe
|
Hi Joe,
I understand, two terrific amplifiers with their own individual strengths, both excellent overall and can be enjoyed independently. I have a loaned First Watt S.I.T. special Nelson Pass designed D.I.Y. he did in push pull for additional power (40 watts). Pure class A and ultra simple circuit.
One of the best transistor amplifiers I’ve heard up to this point. Really good sounding top to bottom, quite impressive. In direct comparison the Frankenstein is more organic, reach out and touch tactile and palpable performers are more realistic. Both amplifiers are top tier however the Frankenstein at the end of the day is more emotionally engaging. The S.I.T. conveys emotion quite well but not to the same degree.
The solid state S.I.T. has very precise imagining placement and exceptionally good separation yet the Frankenstein is the more open and nuanced of the two. It’s a really interesting comparison of different topologies and design approach.
I can imagine how good your Pass Labs XA 30.8 must sound in your system.
Charles |
To be candid 90 % of my music listening is jazz which is overwhelmingly acoustic instruments and human voice. No doubt that this favors the innate qualities of a very good 300b SET amplifier. The Frankenstein is excellent with electric blues music, I don't listen to much rock and roll.
Charles |
Resurrecting an old thread as I just pulled the trigger on Frankensteins, mkIIIs. I had the Dynamo mkIII with 300b tubes and I was truly blown away by it. I contacted Israel about upgrading the 300bs and he convinced me to instead put the money toward the Frankensteins. I would love to hear from @charles1dad @snopro @wkkim @germanboxers about any additional impressions and if you still own them. Thank you. |
@charles1dad which SIT amp did you compare the Frankensteins to? I demoed a SIT-3 against my Dynamo and the Dynamo was superior in just about every way possible. |
Hi
Tswisla,
Congratulations on acquiring the Frankenstein MK III. I f Israel declares it an improvement of the MK II I believe him based on previous updated products from him. As you may know not every Coincident owner has been pleased with their encounters with Israel Blume even though they loved the performance of his products. I’ve enjoyed first rate treatment from him and I hope that your experiences with him are the same.
I’ve owned the Coincident Frankenstein MK II and Statement Line Stage for 10 years and as I’ve written before my joy and appreciation for them has actually grown. As long as you have an appropriate speaker match I can’t imagine that you’ll be anything but very happy with the Frankenstein. Its one of the most natural and pure sounding amplifiers I’ve ever heard. Outstanding rendering of vocal and instrumental tone/timbre/harmonic overtones. Again this assumes a proper matching speaker.
I didn’t hear the First Watt S.I.T.1 or 2. I heard the Nelson Pass D.I,Y. push pull version he designed for those desiring more power (about 35 watts per channel). I had a broken-in model in my system for several weeks. Excellent sound quality and really a terrific transistor power amplifier. Ultimately I preferred the Frankenstein. Just a bit more organic and emotional in its reproduction of music which increased the sense of realism for me. . However the push pull S.I.T. is a wonderful amplifier and would serve some systems better depending on the particular speakers in use.
As you know these preferences, SET,SS,OTL,Class D etc. are all subjective and influenced by individual circumstances and objectives. For my needs the Frankenstein has been superb and is my last amplifier.
Sincerely,
Charles |
Charles,
Thank you. I recently decided to go away from inefficient loudspeakers. After enjoying this hobby for 30+ years, I finally am able to see what I have always been looking for. The pairing of a SET amp to high efficiency speakers is a life changing revelation for me. I initially purchased the Dynamo and was amazed with the speed and detail and "air". It felt a bit thin at times though and it was brutal with poorly recorded/mastered music. I felt that I was on to something though and demoed a few other SETs and decided to also try the FW (low power, simple circuit). I had the Dynamo out of my system for a few days and I don't know if I can attribute it to break in or simply that I had forgotten it's sound, but when I put it back in, my jaw dropped. Nothing compared to that amp. Israel proclaimed that as good as the Dynamo is, that the Frankensteins are better in ever way and "on a completely different level". I really did not want to spend the additional money, but with what I heard and with a proclamation like that from someone who does not exaggerate, I knew that I had to act! What I am trying to say is that, like you, I believe I have found my last amp. |
Tswisla
"Life changing revelation" I understand this reaction as it’s how I felt 10 years ago with my first listening of the Frankenstein in my home. It immediately clicked with me and was precisely what I was seeking. It is the foundation of my audio system . If you don’t mind sharing, what comprises the rest of your system? IMO you won’t regret the direction you’ve chosen of SET/ low power simple circuit amplifier driving easy load/efficient speakers.
Charles |
Of course I would not mind sharing at all! For years now, I have been driving my amplifiers without a preamp, directly from my CDP. I am using an Esoteric K-07. I used to own Harbeth SHL5+, but in moving toward HE speakers, I decided to try Zu DWs. With the upgrade of my amplifier to the Frankensteins, I knew that the speakers would need an upgrade as well, so I am trading in the DWs for Soul Supremes (16 ohm, 101 dB!). I am incredibly excited. |
tswisla,
When you have the time I’d love to know your listening impressions of the Esoteric- Frankenstein- Zu audio chain. The Frankenstein should mate beautifully with the 16 ohm load Soul Supremes. My Coincident Total Eclipse II are 14 ohms and are a wonderful pairing.
Charles
|
I’ll report back when everything is set up. Thank you. |
Congrats @tswisla Looking forward to hearing the report. I loved my Frankenstein & Super Eclipse III pairing... I wish my Coincident's PREs were as good of a match so I didn't have to sell those amps. It's too bad Isreal moved on from the Eclipse line... |
Cal,
On paper the Coincident Eclipse line and the Victory line of speakers had very similar specifications. In reality the Eclipse models were the easier to drive speakers. I believe that they had
1 higher ohms (load impedance).
2 Probably simpler crossover design. I can confirm the crossover in my Total Eclipse II are quite simple/minimal. The music JUST flows and fills my room when driven by the Frankensteins. One of Israel’s best speakers ever IMHO.
No question the flagship Pure Reference Extreme (PRE) is a superb speaker but requires more power than the Eclipse. Perhaps the Zu Audio speakers are more similar to the Eclipse in terms of ease of driving them. This would be fantastic for tswisla.
Charles |
Well, the Frankensteins arrived and I have been listening to them for 12+ hours/day for the last 3 days. I can confirm that they are truly wonderful. They don’t seem to be missing anything. My Soul Supremes arrive Wednesday and I can’t image what I will hear as it sounds wonderful right now. |
tswista,
Congratulations on acquiring the Frankenstein mono blocks. I'm happy to read that they're sounding "wonderful " in your system. I suspect the pairing with your incoming Zu Soul Supremes will be a genuine example of music listening bliss.
Charles |
The Supremes are arriving today. I wanted to add to my previous post as I was rushing and merely wanted to give an update. As wonderful as the Dynamo was, the Franks are a huge upgrade. What stands out the most is the perceived power, but the soundstage is enormous and all the instruments have more weight. Dynamics are simply amazing. Stop/starts in music are incredibly sharp and crisp. Everything comes from a silent, dead black background. Goosebumps are a regular occurrence. I wanted to ask if there was a consensus on tubes. What 300bs and rectifiers are being used? I had a suggestion for Black Bottle Psvanes from Mr. Blume as well as a Mullard CV 378 rectifier. I'd love to hear what everyone is using. Thank you. |
I copied @charles1dad and got the Mullard's and eml xls 300bs. Loved that combination. |
tswista,
The following tubes I’ve used and are superb in my Frankensteins.
Elrog, Takatsuki, KR XLS and EML XLS. In terms of sound quality you can’t go wrong with any of them. I’ve settled on the EML XLS. Absolutely reliable, very rugged workhorse type of tube with dynamic and authoritative yet very natural presentation.
As cal says I’m using the Mullard rectifier x the past 4 or 5 years. Excellent sound and no reliability issues.
Do you have any early listening impressions of the Frankenstein and Zu Soul Supremes formed yet?
Charles |
@charles1dad Thank you. In addition to what I described above, I can say that I never thought I could achieve this level of detail, drive, realism. The sound is incredibly engaging, more so now than ever.
The Mullard you are using is the CV378? Mr. Blume wrote in the manual not to try tubes other than the 5u4gb, but he suggested the CV378, so I am a bit confused. I have also read that the KR tubes were somewhat unreliable.
The Supremes are amazing. The DWs could get a bit etched or strained at times. The Supremes are smooth on the highs, relaxed but extremely detailed. The sound is fuller and it I feel it is more coherent from top to bottom. Placement is very important.
What is my goal with replacing the tubes? I really don't know, but I am always looking to improve the sound. Being surprised by some new sound is something I enjoy immensely. |
tswista,
I’m using the Mullard CV 378 and as I wrote earlier there haven’t been any performance or reliability concerns. This tube and/or the 5u4gb will serve you very well. .
The KR XLS was loaned to me and as stated had excellent sound quality. I know that some KR tubes have had reliability issues and I don’t know the status of current production. I am not sure if this issue involved the XLS 300b. The early production Elrog 300b which I owned had durability problems (I had 3 pairs fail after only 4 to 5 months of use). Elrog has new ownership x about 2 years and are said to be very reliable now. I hope this is true as it’s a superb sounding tube.
The EML XLS 300b has earned a reputation for extraordinary durability and an exceptionally long lifespan. Some of their earliest versions that have gotten very heavy use are now approaching 40,000 hours without failure. This is an outstanding result. I believe that the Frankenstein can be a bit tough on 300bs but seems to present no challenge/problem for the EML XLS. I tried the EML mesh plate (beautiful sound quality) but it failed after a couple of months. It needs to be used in an amplifier with lower operating points than the Frankensteins.
It makes me happy to know that you’re getting "incredibly engaging" sound quality and realism with your Frankensteins/Soul Supreme pairing. I completely understand how you feel. Amplifiers really thrive with good quality high impedance easy load speakers (As atmosphere has pointed out numerous times on this forum). Who knows, you may not ever return to the high power amplifier/low impedance difficult load alternative 😊.
Charles |
I ordered a pair of Mullard CV378s from Mr. Blume. For good measure, I also ordered a pair of vintage RCA 5u4gbs. When I scrape together the funds, I will either order a pair of Psvane Black Bottles or the Acmes, based on his recommendations. @charles1dad I can tell you right now, that I am never turning back. This may sound cheesy, but this path that I have finally come across has been a life changing experience when it comes to music reproduction. |
