Coincident Frankenstein mk.2 amps

Thank you for understanding, Charles. It's doubly disappointing given that this could drag out for quite some time now, and I'm not getting any younger, I may, though I would definitely rather not, have to possibly consider other alternatives given, as you said, that MK III on the used market may be extremely difficult to come by for quite an extended period. And even if one should appear, it's value may be very skewed as in the only other one I have seen in six months, whose owner wanted $5,700.00 for it. 

@nightfall,
That is quite a letdown and I understand your disappointment after reaching an agreement for sale.  Used MK III Frankensteins will be rare for a while.
Charles 

What a disappointment. After waiting all this time for a very nice pair of used Frankenstein's, either a Mark II, or Mark III to appear, I finally came across one. I contacted the owner, a very nice guy, and we worked out a negotiated price and I was extremely happy. Even better, these were Mark III's, barely  used, and not even broken in, with far less than a hundred hours on them, in mint condition. And as a very nice bonus, the owner lived four hours away from me, and even suggested that he meet me half way, to avoid shipping concerns, which I always have with tube gear. We were going to meet up next week and I was overjoyed that my search had come to an end, and also that I would finally have these wonderful amps in my hands by next week. 

And then, the owner called me earlier today. He was very sorry to tell me that something had come up, and he wouldn't be able to part with the amps, after all. I understood when he explained the situation, but that was it. How incredibly disappointing. Not to mention that he had several lengthy discussions with Israel about the Mark II vs the Mark III, and, in our first call, carefully described all the improvements to the Mark III's that Israel spoke to him about, in depth. So, even worse, I now feel like I won't be satisfied unless I buy a used mark III, and not only are those quite a bit more expensive than the mark II's that appear for sale, but the Mark III's also appear very seldom at all. :(

Hi Cal,
10 years elapsed between the introduction of the Frankenstein MK II and the upgrade to the MK III model. Israel Blume was always very proud of the part quality of the MK II particularly the Japanese made double C core output transformers.

The MK III is said to have even better output transformers, power supply capacitance and other parts improvement. I have no reason to doubt these stated improvements. I can however say the MK II is a marvelous SET amplifier and a tremendous value purchased used.

With money saved buying a used Frankenstein MK II, one could (If so desired) purchase upper tier quality 300b output tubes. With the appropriate speakers, one would have the foundation of a superb sounding audio system.
Charles

@nightfall Good luck on the search! I followed Charles' advice as well and loved those amplifiers too. 

Also, I haven't heard a mkIII, but am somewhat sceptical that there's much difference between it and the mkII model.  I suspect the primary difference between the two is the price. 

Hi JC,
Thanks for your kind remarks.
I’m pretty confident you will be happy with the Frankensteins in your system. At first listen to my new Franks in August 2009 I knew I’d made the right choice. Now nearly 12 years later that feeling has only grown.
Charles

After wanting them for a very long time, I'm now currently awaiting a pair of Coincident Frankenstein MKII's to appear for sale in Audiogon, or one of the other used audio sites online. Sadly, a serious family medical emergency that thankfully ended well, took me out of the loop for a few months (late December through mid March) and I just missed out on at least four that I would have snatched up instantly. Now its just a question of waiting. The only currently available option is is a pair of MKIII's being offered in a forum, whose owner has an extremely overpriced opinion on what they are worth. And while a MKIII would certainly be optimal, given the average prices for the MKII's, it would be hard to pas on one of those. Hopefully a pair in excellent condition appear soon. 

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this discussion as you have provided invaluable insight into tube options for the Franks, which I was searching for, and truly appreciate. It is good to see some notable online audio forum contributors perspectives, in particular. Thanks especially to Charles1dad for your always well considered, insightful and kind thoughts which I have greatly enjoyed over the years in various discussions. And in this instance, on the Franks, in general, and your extensive tube experiences. I hope to be joining you as an owner soon.

JC

Hi tswisla,
The Truth of the matter is that there’re no bad choices on your list as all are excellent options. Each of them will have their positive attributes and distinct signature. I believe that you’ll be very happy with the Psvane Acme but I also believe that you’d be very happy with any of them.


It’s good to have such wonderful choices available for the superb Frankenstein mono blocks, Congratulations on your selection and I look forward to your listening impressions. It’s good to know that the Frankenstein and Zu Soul Supremes pairing is so successful for you.
Charles

Interested to hear the result

I have been tormented over this decision for months now.  EML XLS, Elrog, Psvane Acme or ?.  Israel has been right every time so far, so I am taking his advice.  I am ordering a pair of Acmes.  He claims they are the best for the Franks.  I will report back!

I think all the tubes you're considering are a good match, but they also will change the sound in different ways. If you want a bit more of a mellow, vintage sound, then try the psvane, if you want more frequency extension and imaging precision, try the eml.  And ideally, try them both.

One caveat is that both Charles and I have tried both tubes and settled on the eml. In my experience, Charles has good ears and makes great recommendations. We also had similar speakers though (coincident super/total eclipses).

I'll be honest, I love what I am hearing.  At the same time, I always am surprised and love to hear improvements.  I mainly want to be sure that the EMLs are a good match for the Franks before I splurge.  

@tswisla What do you want more or less of with the tube upgrade?  Perhaps some talk of that will help folks help you make the decision...

tswisla,
I understand your comfort in going with Israel’s recommendation as you have established a level of trust and confidence with him. I’ve never had any problems with him x 10 years, simply none. So I believe you’d be happy with his preferred Psvane.

I’d suggest getting in touch with tubesusa.com. The owner George is a very long time EML dealer and has sold them to  owners of a multitude of different 300b amplifiers. He is a source of considerable knowledge and experience. The EML XLS is just fabulous in the Frankenstein.
Charles

@charles1dad  the amps sounded wonderful out of the box.  If anything, they are more cohesive now.  The treble settled down and bit and, especially with the KRs, the bass is fuller.  As we discussed, I am concerned about the XLS higher voltage requirements, but you and @cal3713 are both using them with no ill effects, so they must be an acceptable option.  As much as I want the Takatsukis, I simply don't have the money for them.  I wonder if the ones sold by Partsconnexion are seconds or ones that don't measure as well.  I am particularly drawn to the the Psvanes sold by Israel and the EMLs because both come with generous warranties, especially the EMLs.  

I tried the acmes and the eml-xls. I liked the former until I replaced the capacitors on my tweeters, then went back to the emls. Found the acmes a bit "rounder", or smoother, but lost detail and soundstaging. Thought the emls were more extended with better bass, clearer highs and better imaging.

Hi tswisla,
Has the sound of your Frankensteins and Zu Soul Supremes evolved as you've acquired more burn-in/playing time?
Charles 

I can’t say enough positive things about the Franks. Simply amazing. Thank you for the tip.

Tswisla,

Thank you for your response. I have a Luxman MQ300 with Takatsuki 300b and it’s wonderful. A friend has a pair of Frankenstein mk III and loves them. He’s thinking about trying different tubes. So far the Acme are getting great reviews.

Partsconnexion in Canada is selling Takatsuki for around $1500.

I have the MK III.  Other than the stock Psvanes, I tried some KR Anniversaries.  They really sound great.  Definite improvement.  I am lusting after the Takatsukis, but I don't have 2K.  Trying to put together the cash to purchase Psvane Acmes.  Israel is very fond of them and he hasn't steered me in the wrong direction yet.  Send him a message, he replies very quickly.  Please let us know what he says!

bump.


Anyone with a Mk III care to add an update on the amp? Has anyone tried Takatsuki 300B tubes?


Thank you.

tswisla,
My 6EM7 are the original ones that came with the amplifier, GE or RCA. Not exactly sure (I’m currently out of town). Which ever they are they’ve been fine and trouble free. The 6EM7 are very long lasting tubes. Mine are 10 years old. I had them tested about 2 years ago and they still tested as new. tswisla you’ll have no worries with the Frankensteins. They have been rock solid reliable while providing superb sound quality. You have the latest MK III model which is probably even better than my MK II.

At this early stage you have already recognized that the Frankenstein and Soul Supremes are a Splendid pairing. All you have to do is just enjoy your music and connect with it. Your sound will continue to improve as the amplifier’s transformers (and various parts) accumulate hours of use/burn-in. Same process is applicable to the speakers. I strongly suspect that your appreciation of your audio system with  grow as time goes by.
Charles

@charles1dad  From what I understand, there are not many 6EM/A7 choices around.  I dropped in some NOS GEs and they were SUPER hot on the high end.  Almost unlistenable.  The amp came with RCAs.  Before I order a few backups, I wanted to see if you had anything to add.  Thank you.

I ordered a pair of Mullard CV378s from Mr. Blume.  For good measure, I also ordered a pair of vintage RCA 5u4gbs.  When I scrape together the funds, I will either order a pair of Psvane Black Bottles or the Acmes, based on his recommendations.  @charles1dad I can tell you right now, that I am never turning back.  This may sound cheesy, but this path that I have finally come across has been a life changing experience when it comes to music reproduction.

tswista,
I’m using the Mullard CV 378 and as I wrote earlier there haven’t been any performance or reliability concerns. This tube and/or the 5u4gb will serve you very well. .

The KR XLS was loaned to me and as stated had excellent sound quality. I know that some KR tubes have had reliability issues and I don’t know the status of current production. I am not sure if this issue involved the XLS 300b. The early production Elrog 300b which I owned had durability problems (I had 3 pairs fail after only 4 to 5 months of use). Elrog has new ownership x about 2 years and are said to be very reliable now. I hope this is true as it’s a superb sounding tube.

The EML XLS 300b has earned a reputation for extraordinary durability and an exceptionally long lifespan. Some of their earliest versions that have gotten very heavy use are now approaching 40,000 hours without failure. This is an outstanding result. I believe that the Frankenstein can be a bit tough on 300bs but seems to present no challenge/problem for the EML XLS. I tried the EML mesh plate (beautiful sound quality) but it failed after a couple of months. It needs to be used in an amplifier with lower operating points than the Frankensteins.

It makes me happy to know that you’re getting "incredibly engaging" sound quality and realism with your Frankensteins/Soul Supreme pairing. I completely understand how you feel. Amplifiers really thrive with good quality high impedance easy load speakers (As atmosphere has  pointed out numerous times on this forum). Who knows, you may not ever return to the high power amplifier/low impedance difficult load alternative 😊.
Charles

@charles1dad Thank you.  In addition to what I described above, I can say that I never thought I could achieve this level of detail, drive, realism.  The sound is incredibly engaging, more so now than ever.  

The Mullard you are using is the CV378?  Mr. Blume wrote in the manual not to try tubes other than the 5u4gb, but he suggested the CV378, so I am a bit confused.  I have also read that the KR tubes were somewhat unreliable.  

The Supremes are amazing.  The DWs could get a bit etched or strained at times.  The Supremes are smooth on the highs, relaxed but extremely detailed.  The sound is fuller and it I feel it is more coherent from top to bottom.  Placement is very important.

What is my goal with replacing the tubes?  I really don't know, but I am always looking to improve the sound.  Being surprised by some new sound is something I enjoy immensely.  

tswista,
The following tubes I’ve used and are superb in my Frankensteins.
Elrog, Takatsuki, KR XLS and EML XLS. In terms of sound quality you can’t go wrong with any of them. I’ve settled on the EML XLS. Absolutely reliable, very rugged workhorse type of tube with dynamic and authoritative yet very natural presentation.

As cal says I’m using the Mullard rectifier x the past 4 or 5 years. Excellent sound and no reliability issues.

Do you have any early listening impressions of the Frankenstein and Zu Soul Supremes formed yet?
Charles

I copied @charles1dad and got the Mullard's and eml xls 300bs. Loved that combination. 

The Supremes are arriving today.  I wanted to add to my previous post as I was rushing and merely wanted to give an update.  As wonderful as the Dynamo was, the Franks are a huge upgrade.  What stands out the most is the perceived power, but the soundstage is enormous and all the instruments have more weight.  Dynamics are simply amazing.  Stop/starts in music are incredibly sharp and crisp.  Everything comes from a silent, dead black background.  Goosebumps are a regular occurrence.  I wanted to ask if there was a consensus on tubes.  What 300bs and rectifiers are being used?  I had a suggestion for Black Bottle Psvanes from Mr. Blume as well as a Mullard CV 378 rectifier.  I'd love to hear what everyone is using.  Thank you.

tswista, 
Congratulations on acquiring the Frankenstein mono blocks. I'm happy to read that they're sounding "wonderful " in your system. I suspect the pairing with your incoming Zu Soul Supremes will be a genuine example of music listening bliss.
Charles 

Well, the Frankensteins arrived and I have been listening to them for 12+ hours/day for the last 3 days. I can confirm that they are truly wonderful. They don’t seem to be missing anything. My Soul Supremes arrive Wednesday and I can’t image what I will hear as it sounds wonderful right now.

Cal,
On  paper the Coincident Eclipse line and the Victory line of speakers had very similar specifications. In reality the Eclipse models were the easier to drive speakers. I believe that they had
1 higher ohms (load impedance).
2 Probably simpler crossover design. I can confirm the crossover in my Total Eclipse II are quite simple/minimal. The music JUST flows and fills my room when driven by the Frankensteins. One of Israel’s best speakers ever IMHO.

No question the flagship Pure Reference Extreme (PRE) is a superb speaker but requires more power than the Eclipse. Perhaps the Zu Audio speakers are more similar to the Eclipse in terms of ease of driving them. This would be fantastic for tswisla.
Charles

Congrats @tswisla Looking forward to hearing the report.  I loved my Frankenstein & Super Eclipse III pairing... I wish my Coincident's PREs were as good of a match so I didn't have to sell those amps.  It's too bad Isreal moved on from the Eclipse line...

I’ll report back when everything is set up. Thank you.

tswisla,
When you have the time I’d love to know your listening impressions of the Esoteric- Frankenstein- Zu audio chain. The Frankenstein should mate beautifully with the 16 ohm load Soul Supremes.  My Coincident Total Eclipse II are 14 ohms and are a wonderful pairing.
Charles

Of course I would not mind sharing at all!  For years now, I have been driving my amplifiers without a preamp, directly from my CDP.  I am using an Esoteric K-07.  I used to own Harbeth SHL5+, but in moving toward HE speakers, I decided to try Zu DWs.  With the upgrade of my amplifier to the Frankensteins, I knew that the speakers would need an upgrade as well, so I am trading in the DWs for Soul Supremes (16 ohm, 101 dB!).  I am incredibly excited.

Tswisla
"Life changing revelation" I understand this reaction as it’s how I felt 10 years ago with my first listening of the Frankenstein in my home. It immediately clicked with me and was precisely what I was seeking. It is the foundation of my audio system . If you don’t mind  sharing, what comprises the rest of your system? IMO you won’t regret the direction you’ve chosen of SET/ low power simple circuit amplifier driving easy load/efficient speakers.
Charles

Charles,

Thank you.  I recently decided to go away from inefficient loudspeakers.  After enjoying this hobby for 30+ years, I finally am able to see what I have always been looking for.  The pairing of a SET amp to high efficiency speakers is a life changing revelation for me.  I initially purchased the Dynamo and was amazed with the speed and detail and "air".  It felt a bit thin at times though and it was brutal with poorly recorded/mastered music.  I felt that I was on to something though and demoed a few other SETs and decided to also try the FW (low power, simple circuit).  I had the Dynamo out of my system for a few days and I don't know if I can attribute it to break in or simply that I had forgotten it's sound, but when I put it back in, my jaw dropped.  Nothing compared to that amp.  Israel proclaimed that as good as the Dynamo is, that the Frankensteins are better in ever way and "on a completely different level".  I really did not want to spend the additional money, but with what I heard and with a proclamation like that from someone who does not exaggerate, I knew that I had to act!  What I am trying to say is that, like you, I believe I have found my last amp.  

Hi
Tswisla,
Congratulations on acquiring the Frankenstein MK III. I f Israel declares it an improvement of the MK II I believe him based on previous updated products from him. As you may know not every Coincident owner has been pleased with their encounters with Israel Blume even though they loved the performance of his products. I’ve enjoyed first rate treatment from him and I hope that your experiences with him are the same.

I’ve owned the Coincident Frankenstein MK II and Statement Line Stage for 10 years and as I’ve written before my joy and appreciation for them has actually grown. As long as you have an appropriate speaker match I can’t imagine that you’ll be anything but very happy with the Frankenstein. Its one of the most natural and pure sounding amplifiers I’ve ever heard. Outstanding rendering of vocal and instrumental tone/timbre/harmonic overtones. Again this assumes a proper matching speaker.

I didn’t hear the First Watt S.I.T.1 or 2. I heard the Nelson Pass D.I,Y. push pull version he designed for those desiring more power (about 35 watts per channel). I had a broken-in model in my system for several weeks. Excellent sound quality and really a terrific transistor power amplifier. Ultimately I preferred the Frankenstein. Just a bit more organic and emotional in its reproduction of music which increased the sense of realism for me. . However the push pull S.I.T. is a wonderful amplifier and would serve some systems better depending on the particular speakers in use.

As you know these preferences, SET,SS,OTL,Class D etc. are all subjective and influenced by individual circumstances and objectives. For my needs the Frankenstein has been superb and is my last amplifier.
Sincerely,
Charles

@charles1dad  which SIT amp did you compare the Frankensteins to?  I demoed a SIT-3 against my Dynamo and the Dynamo was superior in just about every way possible.  

Resurrecting an old thread as I just pulled the trigger on Frankensteins, mkIIIs.  I had the Dynamo mkIII with 300b tubes and I was truly blown away by it.  I contacted Israel about upgrading the 300bs and he convinced me to instead put the money toward the Frankensteins.  I would love to hear from @charles1dad  @snopro  @wkkim @germanboxers  about any additional impressions and if you still own them.  Thank you.

To be candid 90 % of my music listening is jazz which is overwhelmingly acoustic instruments and human voice.  No doubt that this favors the innate qualities of a very good 300b SET amplifier. The Frankenstein is excellent with electric blues music,  I don't listen to much rock and roll. 
Charles 

Hi Joe,
I understand, two terrific amplifiers with their own individual strengths, both excellent overall and can be enjoyed independently. I have a loaned First Watt S.I.T. special Nelson Pass designed D.I.Y. he did in push pull for additional power (40 watts). Pure class A and ultra simple circuit.

One of the best transistor amplifiers I’ve heard up to this point. Really good sounding top to bottom, quite impressive. In direct comparison the Frankenstein is more organic, reach out and touch tactile and palpable performers are more realistic. Both amplifiers are top tier however the Frankenstein at the end of the day is more emotionally engaging. The S.I.T. conveys emotion quite well but not to the same degree.

The solid state S.I.T. has very precise imagining placement and exceptionally good separation yet the Frankenstein is the more open and nuanced of the two. It’s a really interesting comparison of different topologies and design approach.

I can imagine how good your Pass Labs XA 30.8 must sound in your system.
Charles

Hi Charles,
 Actually I just put the Pass XA-30.8 in about a month ago and I'm really enjoying it too!
 I like the Franks for their organic naturalness, texture and openness.

The Pass comes pretty close and is impressive for a SS amp, but isn't quite there. It has other qualities where it shines like a wider and maybe deeper soundstage. Goes deeper in the bass, it really takes control of those 16 woofers. It's really smooth and dynamic with a fuller upper bass to lower midrange. I like it better then the First Watt J2 that I use to have.
It also has very good separation and nice layering.

Which do I like better, that's a hard one to answer. 
For Jazz and Vocals the SET for harder hitting music the 30.8 

No hard decision. I'll keep them both!😉

Joe

@charles1dad , I absolutely agree with you Charles, on all counts. Thx!

Mark

1markr,
For further clarification I also have the Jupiter copper foil capacitors in my Frankenstein rather than the stock Solens capacitors in the first stage coupling cap position. The 2nd stage is interstage transformer coupled. The difference between the two capacitors isn’t "hugh" but is rather noticeable and a worthwhile upgrade in my opinion.

Regarding the Mullard GZ 37 I’d say that 40 to 50 hours was sufficient. However keep in mind that you may just like another tube more than you do the Mullard . This is all so subjective when all is said and done.
Charles

Thanks for the feedback on the Mullard GZ37 guys... maybe I need to be patient with them, since the EMLs and the Mullards are relatively new with few hours on them, they have to "burn-in" properly.  Any thoughts on how many hours it may take them to reach their full sonic glory?

@snopro , I am a huge fan of the Jupiter caps, and have already used them in at least 4 or 5 of my previously / current owned gear. Trust me, it's on my mind now for the Franks! I want to get used to the Franks for now before putting in the caps, but yes, that is a goal!

Hi Joe,
I'm curious,  how often do you switch between the Pass Labs  and Frankenstein driving your Hornings? I have no doubt that the sound quality of your system is fantastic and very natural. 
Charles