hi Erndog, you need to match with medium sensitivity speakers with medium impedance level that does not "run wild". you'll need to do basic homework first! Regards.
Roger that, but that is not what I was asking about. Can you offer any relevant information about the sonic differences between the MK I and the MK II versions?
The biggest difference between the Frankenstein mkI and mkII was the noisiness and the EMF's that it generated. In a recent email to a Dragon mkI owner he stated that the Dragon MkI had similar issues. Other than that, I have no idea.
I ended up getting the Dragon MK I. It does some things better than the Pass Labs XA30.5 and the Pass did some things better. So it is a mixed bag.
The pass has better bass, sounds fuller, and has more weight or umphff to it.
The Dragon has better separation, more 3D, and very smooth, which I really like. However, it sounds a little thin compared to the pass amp. As a result it has less bass drive.
Any advice on how I can tweak the Dragons so they produce more weight to the music?
Jiamming, I agree with your characterization of the Frankenstein, transparent and quite minimal coloration. The bass is very good but not the best available obviously.If the Dragon amplifier has essentially similar character as the Frankenstein(but with more bass and power) then it should respond significantly to various brands of tubes(as the Frankenstein surety do).I don't know if there's as many choices for the 211 tube as there are for the 300b.From everything I've read or heard said, the MK II Dragons are a considerable improvement (and many felt the MK I was very good).Remember that speakers matter, some may be better with the SS amp and others are better with tube amplification. I'd recommend the Coincident power cord, it's excellent with their components and is reasonably priced.I've never heard the Dragon described as thin or to have diminished bass, could it be poor match for the speakers?
Well, after listening more, I have some different thoughts about it. I've come to the conclusion that the Dragons are not thin sounding. They are very neutral sounding. Whereas the Pass amp was warmer sounding and in my opinion has a slight upper bass hump.
So what I'm experiencing sounds like something is missing because my brain is used to hearing more warmth and bass. I just need to relax and adjust to the new sound :)
I also want to add that I love bass. The low end is very important to me, probably more so than most people. I find that solid bass helps with adding a foundation to the music.
I have tried upgrading the 211 tubes over the stock ones. I just installed some new Psvane 211-T tubes and I heard an instant improvement. So that is a move in the right direction. I also have a JL Audio Fathom 10" sub which helps too.
For power, I'm using Pangea AC-9 power cords, which I find are an excellent value. I'll check into the Coincident power cords.
I'm not sure if switching out the 300B tube could help. It came with the EH Golden 300B. Israel recommends the 300B Black Bottles. Is this the same as the Shuguang Treasure? Would this be an improvement over the EH I'm using?
Thanks for helping me get my Dragons dialed in. Ernie
Erndog, That's a wise move , give yourself adequate time with a different sounding amplifier then you can compare and contrast. Jimmy's observations stated in earlier post were on the mark.I'm not surprised that upgrading the 211 tube made a significant improvement, a transparent amp allows each different tube's character to become apparent . Israel is right, the Black Treasure tube is much better than the respectable EH 300b and you'll easily hear the better sound of this driver tube. The Coincident amplifiers will reveal the natural tone and body but won't add gratuitous warmth and color.They are very honest amplifiers.As you discovered, patience pays off. Regards,
I have a similar amp to your Dragons, the Cary 805AE. It uses a 300b to drive the 211. I have several pairs of 300b's and notice a difference just rolling them in while keeping the same 211.
I think it's worth experimenting. The "best" is subjective of course but I think most would be an improvement over the EH's. One of my favorites in the Cary is the Sophia Princess Mesh. I thought the Genalex Gold Lions were pretty good also.
fwiw, The Cary AE can take either a 845 or 211. I thought for sure the 845 would be my favorite. I had a 845 SET earlier in my path that I liked a lot. But it's the 211 that I enjoy the most in this amp. I still sub the 845 in for a change every once in awhile.
Like Charles, my favorite amp is a 300b SET. I use one in my hi-eff system. In my other system, that uses Magnepan 3.6's, I use Pass's XA100.5 amps. I decided to take a gamble and bought this Cary 805AE for the Maggies to see if I could pull off SE on them. It worked. Drop Dead Gorgeous sound and like you, find both the Pass and Cary to have their own strengths.
Last night, I swapped out the Pangea power cords and tried some Audience powerchords and this was a very nice improvement. The soundstage got bigger and the Dragons sounded more open. This was not a subtle improvement.
I'm using the dragons with no preamp. I'm going direct from the Empirical Audio Overdrive dac into the mono blocks. My source is a 2011 Macbook Pro laptop, using Amarra version 4318 (this is the version Steve at Empirical recommends). For the USB cable, I'm using an inexpensive Belkin Gold.
So far my biggest grumble with the Dragons is that they don't have XLR inputs. My dac sounds significantly better using the XLR outs versus the RCA outs. As an experiment, I'm getting my Placette XLR cables modded to have RCA connectors on one end. We'll see what that does.
Also a friend of mine just read this thread and offered me to try out his Sophia Princess 300B's tubes! (Thanks Scott) I'll let you all know how these Sophia's sound in the Dragon.
Erndog, This is good to hear. That amplifier is transparent and very uncolored, so power cord,cables and tube changes will be quite apparent.The Dragon as expected responds significantly to this type of fine tuning.You` re on the right track, just continue to trust your ears. Regards,
Hello Erndog, You have found a very nice recipe that works for you and to stick with, just season to your taste. I love the 300b as does Charles. (currently using Sophia RP.) My Pre has XLR out and I declined to use an adapter so I commissioned Tempo Electric, Joseph Levy, for XLR/RCA IC cable. You are about there... I would like to be there to listen...
I'm really enjoying getting this amp dialed in. So far everything I've done has produced a good result.
For whatever reason, I don't hear much about the 6EM7 input tube for the Dragon. Are people rolling this one too? I'm not sure how much of an impact this tube makes. Mine came with some NOS Sylvanias.
Jimmy, The Dragon is a clear and simple circuit design with much transparency.For this reason I believe you'd hear the effect of the 300b driver tube. Regards,
I would love to hear an all Coincident system. I'm sure the system synergy adds to it. I live in Ashland, Oregon so I'm going to have to miss the New York show.
I got the Sophia Electric Carbon 300B tubes from a friend and plan to give them a whirl tomorrow.
Shoot, one of the Sophias created a flash, a pop, then made this screeching sound out of the speakers. I quickly turned the amp off. This has happened before with previous tube gear and It always scares the crap out of me. So it's obviously a dead tube :(
Jimmy, I couldn't help but cuckle a bit by this statement you made above---"My MK2 Dragons would sound very identical to the Franks though i never got the same goose bumps as i had with the passive preamp/Franks combo."
I bought your Promitheus Signature and have enjoyed it quite a bit over the last 2-3 years. It is a very good passive and yes, it can bring on those goose bumps. But it has recently been displaced from my system by guess what?? A Coincident Statement Line Stage. The poor Promitheus is getting a complex, having been bumped from two consecutive systems by the CSL. Funny how things go.
I couln't agree more. The Promethius is a champ at its price point but the CSL offers a lot more, as it should for 2x the price. But I have to say, I think the CSL is so good that it also is an outstanding value at its price point. Imaging with the CSL is just amazing.
Jimmy , I think Israel is going to have sucess with both of this new amplifiers. Knowing him, he won't offer something for sale unless he's satisfied with the sound.I suspect the 845 integrated will provide true top level performance at a obtainable price and be able to drive moderately efficient speakers. This amplifier weights 100 pounds, The transformers and power supply are likely very high quality and over specified as is his habit. Regards,
Update: The modded Placette XLR/RCA cable arrived yesterday and I heard an immediate improvement when I used the XLR outputs from the Overdrive dac going straight into the Dragons. Right now, I'm very pleased with the sound I'm getting from my computer audio rig. This sounds 100 x's better than my old cd player rig. I was using a Modwright tube Oppo 83.
Today a friend is going to be letting me borrow his Zu Druid speakers (not sure which Mark) and I'm very curious how they will sound with my Coincident Dragons. I've been using Tyler Acoustics Linbrook Signature System for the past 4 years and have grown attached to them. I also use a JL Audio 10" sub to help fill in the last octave of the low end. I'm excited about hearing what Zu speakers have to offer. I've been fantasizing the idea of getting new speakers and have been contemplating the Coincident Super Victory II or the Zu Definition Mk IV. Auditioning the Druid will certainly help with this decision.
I have both the Zu Definition Mk4 and the Druid Mk4-8 ( last model before Druid Mk5 came out late last year). I can speak to the differences between the two as well as the effects of amps. I've had the Coincident Frankenstein Mk2 powering the Definitions now for about 1 week and I've done a lot listening in this week. I've used the Atma-Sphere M60's and Clayton M200's as well.
The difference between the Druid and Definition, even the earlier Definition Mk 1.5 and Mk1.9, is large. Still, the Druid properly set up is competitive with many more expensive speakers. It brings the rich tone, coherency, and dynamic ease (macro and micro) that Zu is known for. The Definition's, in comparison, sound more "alive", more dynamic, present a larger soundstage with a little less image focus, and more resolved inner detail. The Mk 4's are really special.
To my surprise, the Coincident Frankenstein Mk2 drive the Definition Mk4's wonderfully in my open 6000 ft^3 listening room. Unless you listen regularly at really high SPL's, I can't imagine needing more than the Franks on the Definition Mk4. At natural to quite loud volume levels, they are alive, dynamic and nuanced. Bass is surprisingly as good or better than my M60's. It is easier to follow the bass line in complex music and is just as textured. It is not solid state "tight", but I don't find that realistic anyway. If the instrument produced a "tight" low frequency sound, the Franks present it that way.
On the Definition's or the Druid's, the Dragons wouldn't break a sweat at insane volume levels. Given the easy drivability of the Coincident speakers, I doubt either the Franks, and certainly not the Dragons, would struggle at all.
Germanboxers' s description of the Frankenstein driving the Zu DEF IV is eerily similar to them driving my Coincident speakers.A very natural large scale sound and very balanced across the frequency spectrum. It produces more volume than I need in my generous size room.The tone and timbre are full and realistic, the sense of flesh and blood presence is striking. I'm not surprised at the exceptional synergy Germanboxers is experiencing and the quality of the bass he's hearing.Both the Franks and Atma-Sphere have low noise floors,are very transparent, clear and fast(like Germanboxers I've heard them compared in someone's system).The Franks tend toward fuller and the Atma-Sphere toward a bit leaner sound(matter of preference and system matching).The Frankenstein is very revealing of nuance and the true emotion and expression of the music(what some would call holistic).
My speaker isn't as sensitive as his Zu DEFs (101db vs 94db) but the Coincident is a very easy to drive load (piece of cake for the Dragons) and the Frankenstein seems to coast with them.IMO either Coincident amplifier will be superb with either brand of speakers. You won't go wrong with these choices. Regards,
I've been listening to the Druids for 4 days now and thought I'd share some quick impressions.
I found them to sound revealing, transparent, neutral, open, fast, lean and sometimes strident on the top end with some cd's. These weren't a synergistic match for my system. Music sounded too hifi and sterile. My Tyler Acoustic Linbrooks system speakers sounded warm in comparison, which is a better match with my electronics. In my friend's rig the same Druids sound totally blissful and amazingly good! It's all about careful system matching and synergy. This was a fun experiment.
Do Coincident speakers have a similar sound to Zu speakers?
Erndog, Just to be fair, those who are familiar with the Zu line say the DEF MK IV is a significant improvement. I'm not sure if you can attribute a common house sound or not (I haven't heard them). Germanboxers found the Zu - Frankenstein match to sound very well.But as you acknowledged, different system and ears. In terms of the Coincident speakers I find them to sound as impressive as their electronics and as one would anticipate work wonderfully together. Of course I haven't heard every model but I did I hear the Pure Reference and my Total Eclipse and can say the match is excellent. I'm not familiar with the Victory models that utilize a ribbon tweeter.Coincident speakers are very transparent, open and quite uncolored.For the most part, you will just hear the character of the source and electronics just as jimmy has described before in other posts. I'd say the overall sound of my system is organic and just a bit to the warmer side of dead center neutral.Tone is adequately saturated with a full bodied sound and much harmonic preservation if that helps you get a feel for their sound with my particular components. Regards,
Thanks for both of your observations and experience about this. It is giving more to think about for sure.
This whole experience has led me to the conclusion that my Overdrive SE dac leans more on the detailed side of the spectrum. I prefer an organic sound. So when I paired up the Druids with the Dragons with the Overdrive dac, there was nothing in the chain giving it any warmth. So I'm taking a different approach. I ordered a Chord QuteHD dac along with a fully loaded Off-Ramp 4 usb converter. This dac is known to produce a more organic tone while still maintaining detail. We'll see which dac is a better fit for my rig.
It feels important for me to really get my source nailed down, so that I absolutely love it and that it produces the most realistic music. I don't like an overly warm, euphonic presentation either. I prefer the warm side of neutral. This whole business of component matching is such a delicate matter to get it right.
On a side note, I was able to get on a Power conditioner tour on Audiocircle website which should be coming next week: http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=114616.0. Right now I'm using a Running Springs Haley, which I'm very satisfied with. I used a PS Audio Quintet before that and had mixed feelings about it. The Haley was a no brainer right when I plugged it in.
Erndog, Your approach to get the source nailed down is right.If you go the Coincident route you`ll hear the essential character of the source component very clearly.Jimmy is right, the Coincident electronics and speakers are quite neutral(relatively speaking).My DAC is the Yamamoto YDA and it is rather organic and full tone/body but also transparent and very nuanced.The Coincident chain of equitment doesn`t alter that fundamental character as the signal travels downstream.So your plan is correct,choose your front end source carefully to achieve the overall sound you want. Regards,
I'm really enjoying the QuteHD DSD dac paired with the Off Ramp 4. Sounds very full, robust and organic with excellent imaging. The OR4 adds more weight and clarity. Everything sounds more focused and I didn't know there was so much smearing going on. I'm convinced that a high quality USB converter is a necessity for computer audio. This combination is closer to what I'm looking for versus what I was hearing with the Overdrive alone.
My only complaint is that on some recording with female vocalists, the treble sounds a bit hot. I'm hoping to address this by adding an external power supply to the QuteHD. It comes with a cheap wall wart. I ordered a decent one from MCRU here: http://www.mains-cables-r-us.co.uk/power-supplies/514-chord-qutehd-linear-power-supply.html It's coming from the UK and I'm in the USA, so it'll arrive next week. More to come then....
Another solution might be warming up the sound from the Dragons. If I wanted a warm sounding 300b tube, which would you recommend?
Hi Ernie, The best 300's (Best value for sure) that I used in my Franks were the original Shuguang Black Treasures and I found them to be warm and very engaging. They were fantastic and for the price a very good tube. To better it, I needed the EML Mesh 300's.
Hi Ernie, The Def IV's are stunning! I've only heard a small percentage of their potential as I'm literally rebuilding my entire system from the ground up including a new listening room in a new home. As soon as I have them good to go I would love to have you over for a visit. Cheers, Morgan
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