Coincident Dragon MK I vs MK II

Jimmy,
I couldn't help but cuckle a bit by this statement you made above---"My MK2 Dragons would sound very identical to the Franks though i never got the same goose bumps as i had with the passive preamp/Franks combo."

I bought your Promitheus Signature and have enjoyed it quite a bit over the last 2-3 years. It is a very good passive and yes, it can bring on those goose bumps. But it has recently been displaced from my system by guess what?? A Coincident Statement Line Stage. The poor Promitheus is getting a complex, having been bumped from two consecutive systems by the CSL. Funny how things go.

Shoot, one of the Sophias created a flash, a pop, then made this screeching sound out of the speakers. I quickly turned the amp off. This has happened before with previous tube gear and It always scares the crap out of me. So it's obviously a dead tube :(

Erndog,
If you don't mind, let us know the results with these different 300b as driver tubes.
Regards,

I would love to hear an all Coincident system. I'm sure the system synergy adds to it. I live in Ashland, Oregon so I'm going to have to miss the New York show.

I got the Sophia Electric Carbon 300B tubes from a friend and plan to give them a whirl tomorrow.

Jimmy,
The Dragon is a clear and simple circuit design with much transparency.For this reason I believe you'd hear the effect of the 300b driver tube.
Regards,

There aren`t many choices of the 6em7 available, you might as well stick with what you have.

I'm really enjoying getting this amp dialed in. So far everything I've done has produced a good result.

For whatever reason, I don't hear much about the 6EM7 input tube for the Dragon. Are people rolling this one too? I'm not sure how much of an impact this tube makes. Mine came with some NOS Sylvanias.

Hello Erndog,
You have found a very nice recipe that works for you and to stick with, just season to your taste.
I love the 300b as does Charles. (currently using Sophia RP.)
My Pre has XLR out and I declined to use an adapter so I commissioned Tempo Electric, Joseph Levy, for XLR/RCA IC cable. You are about there... I would like to be there to listen...

Erndog,
This is good to hear. That amplifier is transparent and very uncolored, so power cord,cables and tube changes will be quite apparent.The Dragon as expected responds significantly to this type of fine tuning.You` re on the right track, just continue to trust your ears.
Regards,

More updates....

Last night, I swapped out the Pangea power cords and tried some Audience powerchords and this was a very nice improvement. The soundstage got bigger and the Dragons sounded more open. This was not a subtle improvement.

I'm using the dragons with no preamp. I'm going direct from the Empirical Audio Overdrive dac into the mono blocks. My source is a 2011 Macbook Pro laptop, using Amarra version 4318 (this is the version Steve at Empirical recommends). For the USB cable, I'm using an inexpensive Belkin Gold.

So far my biggest grumble with the Dragons is that they don't have XLR inputs. My dac sounds significantly better using the XLR outs versus the RCA outs. As an experiment, I'm getting my Placette XLR cables modded to have RCA connectors on one end. We'll see what that does.

Also a friend of mine just read this thread and offered me to try out his Sophia Princess 300B's tubes! (Thanks Scott) I'll let you all know how these Sophia's sound in the Dragon.

Erndog,

I have a similar amp to your Dragons, the Cary 805AE. It uses a 300b to drive the 211. I have several pairs of 300b's and notice a difference just rolling them in while keeping the same 211.

I think it's worth experimenting. The "best" is subjective of course but I think most would be an improvement over the EH's. One of my favorites in the Cary is the Sophia Princess Mesh. I thought the Genalex Gold Lions were pretty good also.

fwiw, The Cary AE can take either a 845 or 211. I thought for sure the 845 would be my favorite. I had a 845 SET earlier in my path that I liked a lot. But it's the 211 that I enjoy the most in this amp. I still sub the 845 in for a change every once in awhile.

Like Charles, my favorite amp is a 300b SET. I use one in my hi-eff system. In my other system, that uses Magnepan 3.6's, I use Pass's XA100.5 amps. I decided to take a gamble and bought this Cary 805AE for the Maggies to see if I could pull off SE on them. It worked. Drop Dead Gorgeous sound and like you, find both the Pass and Cary to have their own strengths.

Erndog,
That's a wise move , give yourself adequate time with a different sounding
amplifier then you can compare and contrast. Jimmy's observations stated
in earlier post were on the mark.I'm not surprised that upgrading the 211
tube made a significant improvement, a transparent amp allows each
different tube's character to become apparent . Israel is right, the Black
Treasure tube is much better than the respectable EH 300b and you'll easily
hear the better sound of this driver tube. The Coincident amplifiers will
reveal the natural tone and body but won't add gratuitous warmth and
color.They are very honest amplifiers.As you discovered, patience pays off.
Regards,

Well, after listening more, I have some different thoughts about it. I've come to the conclusion that the Dragons are not thin sounding. They are very neutral sounding. Whereas the Pass amp was warmer sounding and in my opinion has a slight upper bass hump.

So what I'm experiencing sounds like something is missing because my brain is used to hearing more warmth and bass. I just need to relax and adjust to the new sound :)

I also want to add that I love bass. The low end is very important to me, probably more so than most people. I find that solid bass helps with adding a foundation to the music.

I have tried upgrading the 211 tubes over the stock ones. I just installed some new Psvane 211-T tubes and I heard an instant improvement. So that is a move in the right direction. I also have a JL Audio Fathom 10" sub which helps too.

For power, I'm using Pangea AC-9 power cords, which I find are an excellent value. I'll check into the Coincident power cords.

I'm not sure if switching out the 300B tube could help. It came with the EH Golden 300B. Israel recommends the 300B Black Bottles. Is this the same as the Shuguang Treasure? Would this be an improvement over the EH I'm using?

Thanks for helping me get my Dragons dialed in.
Ernie

Jiamming,
I agree with your characterization of the Frankenstein, transparent and
quite minimal coloration. The bass is very good but not the best available
obviously.If the Dragon amplifier has essentially similar character as the
Frankenstein(but with more bass and power) then it should respond
significantly to various brands of tubes(as the Frankenstein surety do).I
don't know if there's as many choices for the 211 tube as there are for the
300b.From everything I've read or heard said, the MK II Dragons are a
considerable improvement (and many felt the MK I was very
good).Remember that speakers matter, some may be better with the SS
amp and others are better with tube amplification. I'd recommend the
Coincident power cord, it's excellent with their components and is
reasonably
priced.I've never heard the Dragon described as thin or to have diminished
bass,
could it be poor match for the speakers?

Thanks for the info.

I ended up getting the Dragon MK I. It does some things better than the Pass Labs XA30.5 and the Pass did some things better. So it is a mixed bag.

The pass has better bass, sounds fuller, and has more weight or umphff to it.

The Dragon has better separation, more 3D, and very smooth, which I really like. However, it sounds a little thin compared to the pass amp. As a result it has less bass drive.

Any advice on how I can tweak the Dragons so they produce more weight to the music?

Thanks,
Ernie

The biggest difference between the Frankenstein mkI and mkII was the noisiness and the EMF's that it generated. In a recent email to a Dragon mkI owner he stated that the Dragon MkI had similar issues. Other than that, I have no idea.

Roger that, but that is not what I was asking about. Can you offer any relevant information about the sonic differences between the MK I and the MK II versions?

hi Erndog, you need to match with medium sensitivity speakers with medium impedance level that does not "run wild".
you'll need to do basic homework first! Regards.