Clearaudio Innovation [Wood] vs Master Innovation

@dwette 

I see that no one responded to your post unfortunately. So - may i redirect your post? I am considering purchasing an Innovation. May I ask - did you upgrade and what were you looking for in the upgrade? What arm you have on your table and your overall impressions of the arm and table?  And, did you compare it with other tables before purchasing? I’d welcome feedback if you have it. 

Best,

I definitely recommend the Innovation. It's a fantastic turntable. My Innovation has two Clearaudio Universal 12" tonearms, one for mono playback, and one for stereo. If I upgrade to the Master Innovation I will continue using both tonearms.

I previously had a Clearaudio Innovation with a Universal 9" tonearm (and same stereo cartridge: Lyra Atlas SL). The Innovation is better in a every way. It has a lower noise floor and is higher mass. Performance improvements include better bass response, less noise, better soundstage and improved ability to resolve inner details through the range. It's also more dynamic and more musical overall.

@dwette 

Thanks for the feedback. Quite helpful.

can you clarify what model you had previously? (First sentence, second paragraph).

Best,

@mgrif104 Oh, my bad, I didn’t check my editing well enough.

The turntable I had prior to my Innovation was a Clearaudio Ovation. I had that for about 12 years. I was actually quite happy with it, but had a windfall that afforded me the upgrade to the Innovation. I sold the Ovation and 9" Universal arm for a decent price too.

Got it - nice! 

Oh, just to add an update to this....

I just ordered a Clearaudio Master Innovation (piano black) to replace my Innovation. I also had my two 12" Universal tonearms rewired from copper litz with RCA termination to silver litz with DIN termination, and ordered a set of Siltech DIN-XLR phono cables. 

I am also getting a HRS EXR three-shelf rack for the Master Innovation and my Boulder 1108 phono-stage. Currently I have a HRS R3X isolation base sitting on top of a Naim Fraim rack for my Innovation turntable, but plan to upgrade that to something better for the Master Innovation, TBD.

@dwette Think you will love the upgrade. I did the same jump and the MI is just more of everything compared to the Innovation Wood. More weight and solidity to the image and better dynamics. Maybe it's partly psychological, but the MI sounds bigger. Just fills the space with confidence. 

Thanks for the feedback @geardaddie. I remember going from the Ovation to the Innovation a couple years ago, and how much of an improvement that was, with the same tonearm and cartridge. The upgrade there had more weight, better dynamics, and lower noise floor.

Now I just have to wait for the turnable to make its way to me from Germany (several weeks?) and for HRS to build my rack (6-8 weeks).

The waiting is the hardest part. :) 

The HRS rack was also a revelation for me, and putting the MI on one of the HRS shelves is a smart move. That alone will make great improvements. You are just going to be amazed at the coming improvements. Enjoy!

The Info to follow, is maybe not the ideal solution for a Clearaudio TT user, in relation to an aesthetic, as Clearaudio do like their TT's to have a Kerb Appeal.

In terms of adding substance to the TT's design it is well worth considering, I use P'holz as a Plinth Material and more recently a Plinth/Chassis Material due to a change of design for a TT. 

Additionally, I am able to produce a range of Sub Plinth configurations with P'holz and different Footers/Tier Separators. 

Clearaudio are doing very attractive things with the Structures for their TT's. 

Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Boards that is an equivalent to Panzerholz or even P'holz itself can be acquired reasonably cheap. A Board produced to be 20mm Thick @ 500mm x 400mm is a Board that will work perfectly with any TT l know of. It will also be ideal to repurpose if the want arose and will sell very quickly if not wanted to be kept.

The trick is to use a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board, that has veneers at approx' 0.8mm or Less and the Plies are to be Cross Grain as the Structure.

The final weight of the Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board should show at close to 1400Kg/m3.   

Boards to the Dimension above can be used as a Sub Plinth - Sub Sub Plinth or even further Tiers can be added to ones Budget or liking.

Clearaudio offer a configuration where 8 x Tiers of Panzerholz can be utilised.

This suggested method also allows for the Owner of the TT to adopt their own choices for Separators between Tiers, which really does increase options on how to manage Amplitude in transit from migration of Local Ambient Energies. There is a substantial impact that can be discovered for tidying up the End Sound Produced, by using a selection of Footers in a range of configurations 

The Material in the Link is a recent discovery for myself and does help where a little thought for the aesthetic is a priority.

 REZYWOOD - gefärbtes, stabilisiertes & hochverdichtetes Ahorn Holz | Designholz     

@pindac I don't think I understand the point of your post. Are you suggesting a modification of an Innovation turntable, or adding more plinths, or creating a base to put the table on, or what?

Without going of on a tangent about the Structural Rigidity of the Base to put the Table On, which I see you have substantially invested in.

My Post was relating to adding more Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board to be utilised as Sub Plinths and getting the same benefits that Clearaudio is offering when they are adding Sub Plinths, but with the addition of being able to discover further benefits through having control of the Footer/Separators used.   

@pindac Are you suggesting I fashion and add more Panzerholz plinths to a Master Innovation, which already has four, each with impregnated steel balls to add mass and lower resonance? What footer/separators are you talking about? I'm sorry, you're just not being very clear, or I'm just old and dense.

I am not directing info at any Gon member as a personal directive, I am making it known in general how an alternative, with an affordable cost, and quite easy resale, can be considered as a Upgrade Kit. The Opening Post in the Thread clearly refers to one Models Upgrade Kit Option.

My info is much broader than being limited to One Model Only, all Models will benefit if given a Treatment that resembles the suggestion being made.

I have shared similar info with a Clearaudio TT owner in thenot too distant past, to whom I was happy to have them redirected as a gift, a Permali Board, that was being gifted to myself.  

As stated there is an option to use up to 8 x Tiers of Panzerholz on offer from Clearaudio on certain Models in their range. This strongly suggests Clearaudio are promoting the use of increase Tiers of a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board, as the means to attain a betterment.

I am suggesting that if a Clearaudio TT owner is expressing an interest in adding additional Tiers to a TT, in keeping with how models are seen to be an upgrade TT offered from Clearaudio.

There is an option that is very cost effective for the TT owner wanting to add Tiers, which is to source and to adopt the use of a Resin Impregnated Densified Wood Board as additional Tiers with their TT.

If Panzerholz was the selected Board Material to add Tiers, then this would be quite close to what the Clearaudio design will be and will give a very very similar effect on the owned TT as a design. 

Being Investigative with Footers/Separators will allow for furthering what can be a positive to be achieved.  

@pindac It seems you’re assuming the upgrade from an Innovation to a Master Innovation is just about adding two more plinths. That’s part of it, but not what the upgrade really brings to the table. The significant part of it is the use of two platter systems, where the playback platter (i.e. the one for the vinyl record) is magnetically decoupled from the drive platter system (i.e. the one that is driven by the motor and belt). Have a look at the product page for the Master Innovation so you can learn to appreciate that the upgrade from Innovation to Master Innovation isn’t just about adding more plinths. It’s much more.

 https://www.clearaudio.de/en/products/turntables-innovation_master.php

I am aware of the Clearaudio turnable rack that adds four more plinths to the system. I’ve seen very few instances of it in use. It’s also very expensive and not suitable for my installation, so that’s not under consideration anyway.

In any case, it’s moot as far as I’m concerned. I’ve already ordered the Master Innovation and not really interested in an alternative upgrade to my Innovation. Maybe someone else is, but I’ve never heard of anyone using what you suggest. Do you have any testimonials? Thank you for the information in any case.

Have you compared a Master Innovation to an Innovation with your alternative upgrade? I’m skeptical it will be similar, if it lacks the extra magnetically decoupled platter system.

In summary, an Innovation with two more plinths does not equal a Master Innovation.

As Stated by myself  " My info is much broader than being limited to One Model Only, all Models will benefit if given a Treatment that resembles the suggestion being made. "

Panzerholz with a Damping / Dissipation Factor 0.4 as a Test Size Material and 0.7 as a Plinth Dimension Material is exceptional as material to manage Amplitude.

There is absolutely no need for Steel Balls with a extremely Poor Damping / Dissipation Factor 0.008, embedded into Panzerholz to improve on the P'holz. If one wants to attenuate a Board to generate a particular type of sonic voicing, It is not my business to suggest that voicing a material should not be part of a design. 

No Assumptions at my end, and not one word directed solely at any Model Owners posting in this thread. 

It is seemingly a common reaction witnessed, when one is Investing Substantial Sums of Money, any ideas that suggest the outlay is not absolutely necessary will be met with a strong defence. Have a look at the Bedroc Thread to see some of that in place

I really don't care how much a person spends on anything, it is their monies not mine.

I don't encourage anybody to not spend how they want to, they can aspire to what they like.

Others do like to know where alternate options are able to be found and if there is a cost saving that can be made, this is the human condition.

The Taiko Daiza Sub Plinth will be ideal for the role I have suggested.

I have shown on many an occasion how a Taiko Daiza Sub Plinth can be achieved in an almost like for loke dimension for a tenth of the cost using the exact same material that gives equivalent performance, and will resell with ease if not wanted to be maintained in use.

@pindac

I'm going to step away from this debate about it. I'm not trying to save money, and what you are trying to sell isn't what I am upgrading anyway.

I am not a sales person, I have no wares as a stock to offer for sale.

I am not in a Two Way Dialogue on this subject, I am stating that other options are available. 

I am only suggesting to a broad community, additional Tiers of Panzerholz, are not necessarily needing to be acquired through Clearaudio or needing to be a like for like match for their design to get results that will be as good.

There is not only one Clearaudio TT Owner, there are plenty an many of these will own TT's not utilising Panzerholz. 

Branded TT's are not uncommon to have a alternate options made available outside of the Brands offering. Where a Part Offered is intended to create changes to a particular TT Models performance that are recognised for being a betterment. Usually alternate offerings are to be met with a lower cost than what the Brand for the TT is asking.   

Innovation wood is fantastic Turntable, I had one with 9 inch Universal Tonearm and Davinci v2cart.--- then urge and quest to upgrade it to some thing better Perhaps MI, or  Jubilee reference, looked at forums, called dealers   and  God father Surroundings. I did not get any definite answer, most people stated it is aside move, "If you want to upgrade innovation, put  the best CA cart ,New Unity Tone arm, silver vs copper wire, Din vs RCA even MS had no definitive answer, MY cool contact stated he is  using Unity TA on Ovation Turntable. Other AA forum Boss told me  ,he is a CA dealer and owns Innovation TT and he did not notice much improvement,, he recommended to just buy a new 12 K cart for jazz/acoustic.

Now I believe him as I traded in  innovation to buy MI and played  few records, May be back ground little quiet, but on Blind test I would not have been  able to tell the difference.

I have more platters moving arounds, All the fancy words, more mass, but it still the belt and Pulley design with sensor.

I had to get a professional, to set it up for correct configuration using lin magik software,

Sorry for long winded post, Perhaps it will help some one who is looking to upgrade Innovation TT. I purchased a Black MI with Jubilee MC cart/univeral 9" RCA plugs(new)

My other stuff is AR tube amps/preamp/phono  with Cardas CB cables and Focal Scala V2 speakers.

@syd7865 Your system is rather different from mine, so we may have different experience with the Innovation and Master Innovation. I don't care for the sound of CA cartridges. I had Talisman V2 originally with my Ovation, and went to Concerto V2. Years ago I moved on, first to Dynavector XV-1s (which I still have) and two Lyra Atlas Lambda (SL + Mono) that I use now on 12" Universal.

I have heard the Master Innovation in the past when Musical Surroundings brought one to my dealer for a demo weekend. I was very impressed, which is why I have wanted one since. 

My system otherwise is Boulder 1108 phono + Naim 252/300DR with Dynaudio Confidence C2 Platinum speakers and REL S/510 sub array.