Scriabin was very taken with that whole Symbolist doctrine (involving synaesthesia) of correspondences between the senses. See Rimbaud’s poem on the different "color" of each of the vowels of the alphabet. This was in Hill Auditorium, Ann Arbor, years ago. There was definitely some correlation of the more obvious sort (darker sonorities, dark blue, brighter, yellow, louder, red, etc.), and it was interesting as a curiosity, but you ended up thinking about those possible correspondences rather than just immersing in the music.
P.S. D'Albert two piano concertos in the Hyperion 19C series last night. Pleasant, but not compelling... |
craig59
I understand the OD part , but as a devout Anglican with a good command of German has never happened to me after 50 years with Bach, esp. the cantatas , to me they are a form of prayer .
Someone who wrote great religious music in English and was born in same year as Bach is , obviously , Handel .
Among people I have known the most neglected of his works are some of his best works , The Chandos Anthems 1-VI .
Chandos Label(no coincidence) has nice box sets for good prices , perhaps the best readily available . After I listened to Vol 1 today, I went and dug out my Volume 1
LP on the Vanguard Everyman Classics label . The Vinyl was so much better the Chandos CD seemed like a toy and I have a modest TT set up .
I think I have said it before but again to all , if you ever run into ANY old Vanguard vinyl just buy it .
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twoleftears: Your description of the Scriabin has me interested. Could you expand on the relationship between colors and musical content? Were there cases where it made sense? Or did it appears artificial or contrived? |
Schubert: Congrats on the Bach; they are major works with tremendous variety -- unfortunately I OD’d on them some time ago and have not been a listener since. Just got the Buchberger recording of all the Haydn String Quartets -- 23 discs. They are period-informed performances with mostly strong violin playing. However.. ...some ripping problems into JRiver caused minor distortion. And, so, have been looking at ripping software apps that compare the rip to an online database to, supposedly, correct any variants. The first of these I have looked at is Exact Audio Copy. Have not yet gotten it operational but thought I would check with this forum and see if anyone is using these kind of apps to improve their ripped files. Any experts out there? |
Good find and indeed strongly recommended. Was listening to Kuijken's Johannnes Passion only the other day.
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craig58,
Got an even better deal today !
Box of Bach Cantatas, the heart of his work, 19 CD's by one of the best
original instrument ensembles , Le Petite Bande/ Sigiswald Kuijken for 43 bucks on Amazon . Had a few of these already, IMO they are among the best around , one voice to a part as you would have heard in Bach's time .
They were going to do all the Bach Cantatas but the label , Accent , was sold .
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Only thing that is ultimately necessary is death .
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Years ago I was able to go to a concert of Prometheus: Poem of Fire with the color effects that Scriabin stipulated. It was definitely fun, but not ultimately necessary. |
Schubert:
Those sub-$2 finds are always the best! Will be exploring Scriabin much more in the future. |
Monteverdi: Madrigals of War and Love, Book 8. Two 2017 releases by Delitiae Musicae/Longhini and Le Nuove Musiche/Koetsveld.
Remember those Telefunken days of the 70s? Discovering period performances, L'Orfeo, and the Vespers? And, especially, the Madrigals!
So, in a return to youth, decided to find a good modern recording of the 8th Book of Madrigals; yes, it really is the Beethoven 5th of the early Baroque.
First got the Koetsveld and it was not so much bad as it completely misses the point. Have no idea why they are recording all the madrigals.
Then, today, the Delitiae Musicae arrived.
WHOOOOOOO!
This is one of the finest early music performances I have heard along with superb recording, acoustics, and, especially, scholarship. The male vocalists and boy soprano are superb.
Won't waste any more of your time -- just get this Naxos CD as soon as you can. It's that good. Hope its out there for streaming somewhere. Recorded in 2005 but just released by Naxos (did it appear earlier somewhere else?). |
Small world !
On my bi-weekly Goodwill vinyl hunt this AM I ran across what looked to be a mint LP of one Alexander Scriabin’s 2 Tone Poems, "The Poem of Ecstasy" Op. 54 and The Poem of Fire : Prometheus Op. 60" .
I enjoyed the former and was downright smitten with the latter !
Heresy I know , but I’d rather listen to Op. 60 than any Mahler Symphony .
I strongly suspect my favorite modern composer , Leos Janacek , was at least a bit influenced by Scriabin , he knew Russian music backwards and forwards, and had the same thing that is required for real musical genius , passion .
I remember liking some of Scriabin"s solo piano I bought back in the 60’s but they are long gone and don’t remember hearing anything else of his .
Played Album twice , pretty sure it was never played, Dallas SO under Donald
Janos, an excellent band and an excellent conductor .
On Candide(one of the better old labels) CE 31039 must be from early 60’s
in the unlikely event you run in to one buy it .
The sound is quite good esp. since is a Dolby, one of the best things I ever bought for $1.99 .
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Superb description, LeftEars. Pontinen has the right feeling for this gesture but the overall rhythm in the BIS recording is ever so slightly muddy at this critical entry. Am going to order the Ashkenazy. It's an exceptional formal design as the movement starts out like a symphonic theme and variations, then the piano enters as an accompanist, then POW the movement becomes a dramatic piano concerto and, finally, the reversion back to the opening theme. Have noted this formal experimentation with other symphonies by Scriabin to his credit. Did you enjoy the piano bass notes at the ending? |
Listened to the Scriabin. The sound stage on the Ashkenazy recording on my system was magnificently set back, almost beyond the front wall behind the speakers. When the piano came in, it was like exquisite, limpid, droplets of notes from the clearest of mountain cascades. Delightful! |
Well newbee, Fisher is among the best , he and his Budapest are world class and he goes for string slides in Slavic music .If you want a superb "New World" check out Marin Alsop with the Baltimore SO on Naxos .
I kinda sort of agree about the Istvan Kertsesv/London SO from the 60"s but he was SO great and SO Czech I’d put him as an exception that proves the rule ! I used to have them on Vinyl, sob. sob .At least they are ADD .
I know a little newbee, but fake a lot . .
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Newbee: Have some of Fisher's Mahler recordings and find them powerful with system-testing crescendos. Will check out the VC. Speaking of CD covers, just found an interesting recording of Franck and Szymanowski Violin Sonatas and Chee-Yun is on the cover looking as if she is making out with the instrument. So.....checked out the reviews on Amazon and there are 9 reviews of the album -- 8 reviews refer only to completely different violinists and recordings. What's going on? Is there sabotage in the violin world? Her playing is very powerful and the pianist is quite good -- Eguchi. |
Craig, #While Fisher might not be the last word in Dvorak it is certainly pretty good, and the recordings are excellent. If you are interested you might try his version of the VC with the BFO and Akiko Suwanai which is excellent by any standard. If its not quite up to your snuff, you can at least divert your self by looking at the CD cover! Neither are Fisher’s recordings of the 8th and 9th Symphonies and ’Legends’. I have loved Fisher’s Dvorak, unfortunately not so much his work with other composer’ music.
Jarvi’s traversal of the of the Symphonies (and other works on Chandos also gets high marks (from me at least). Other recordings worth exploring are Belohlavek and the Czech Phil on Chandos, Kubelik, and a set by Ivan Kertesz and the LSO (who sez this can’t be done unless the orchestra is Czech.
I just love this Eastern Central European music. Schubert, I know nothing and admit to nothing I don’t know :-) |
Newbee, forgot to add that a recent used bin acquisition of the complete Dvorak Symphonic Poems by the Scottish National Orchestra/Jarvi has become a regular listen for me and was surprised at how attractive these lesser-known works are. |
Have always enjoyed the Dvorak Slavonic Dances live and noted there was a certain quality to the strings that could be termed "Slavic Rumble." Recently got the Channel Classics album by Budapest Festival Orchestra/Fisher and found it was the first recording I had heard that captured this "rumble" well. Also spent some time looking for the ideal recording of the New World symphony and settled on the Cincinnati/Jarvi recording on Telarc in order to get a well-recorded performance. Still like the old Bernstein recording of this warhorse as well. |
In similar vein, listened to a Dyson Chandos CD yesterday and wasn't bowled over. |
No, but same could be said of hundreds at his high level and thousands at well worth listening to level .
I doubt if anyone would not say he is a great composer .
I listen to my favorite work of his , the Masterwork Quintet Op 81 at least once a week and his Mass in D about once a month .The former on a truly great recording, Hyperion CDA 66797 by Gaudier Ensemble , the later on ECM 449508-2
with the wonderful Prague Chamber Choir .
If the Czechs are not the most musical people in the world they are right up there with whoever is .
The pride of Central Europe .
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How come in these forums folks rarely discuss, or even mention, at least so it seems to me, the music of Dvorak. Occasionally someone will mention his Violin or his Cello Concertos, but not so much his symphonies and even less so his Tone Poems and Overtures. This is a rich source of full throated, dramatic, music with an extensive discography. Or do I just enjoy Eastern European music more than most and others find his music unworthy? |
Newbee, you must be psychic. Ordered the exact Bax volume you mention a week and a half ago and it will arrive tomorrow.
Am having some fun in my mind comparing Stanford and Stenhammar. They are rough contemporaries, developed in similar fashions as musicians and composers, and wrote in the same genres (of the late romantic period).
So it is interesting that they are, to me, complete opposites. Stenhammar is the creative/innovative type who spent his life fine-tuning his compositional skill. So his music is fresh and exciting, and, occasionally, a bit rough.
By contrast, Stanford is the traditionalist whose writing skill always seems fully developed but the content may or may not strike you as exciting. It always sound "perfect" however.
So when you shift back and forth between the Stenhammar 1st piano concerto and Stanford’s 2nd, there are more differences than similarities.
BTW, think it was Stenhammar to whom Sibelius apparently dedicated the 6th symphony. |
Glad you can appreciate Stanford, cribbing and all. Speaking of cribbing, I was just listening to a real Irishman, Hamilton Harty, who quotes the ’Garry Owen’ in one of his pieces. At least he was Irish! No so much for the 7th Infantry or a couple of movies out of Hollywood. FWIW this tune is a real earworm. You might even try Harty’s "Irish Symphony" where it appears, by Thompson on Chandos if you are inclined.
Following Stanford you might try Arnold Bax. His symphonies and tone poems appear in a set and two separate discs by Handley devoted to his synphonies and tone poems and Bryden Thompson has recorded all of his symphonies, tone poems, etc, on Chandos. One place to start on this music might be Thompsons single disc on Chandos of the 4th Symphony and one of my favorite Bax pieces, Tintangel (a historical and picturesque location on the cliffs of Cornwall). You might also like some of his piano/orchestral music played by Margaret Fingerhut, the LSO by Thompson, Winter Legends and Symphonic Variations (On 2 discs. I’d probably start with Winter Legends.
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No correction needed to your analysis; I agree with it completely after spending some time with the symphonies. Need to get the harp concerto.
What I notice in particular with his melodic style is that he likes to share the line between several orchestral sections. His orchestration skills accomplish this in a natural fashion. As I suggested above, the Sinfonietta shows this method immediately in the first movement.
Found some of his chamber music available on a Naxos release funded by the "William Alwyn Foundation." Wonder if this is run by his daughter who writes some of the notes on the LSO/Hickox release.
You will not be surprised that the chamber music is very strong. Like the Winter Poems written for string quartet. |
I’ve been doing some serious listening to Alwyn the last few days largely because of comments on here .
Of course as a non-musician its hard for me to understand what’s going on
that makes his music so fresh and original .
As best I can understand he keeps melody and rhythm moving together
nearly all the time, uses 3-4 phrases used by soloists and gives them to whole sections, moves same small bits of music here and there in different
compos , resolves nothing and doesn’t move forward .
What IMO he is trying to do is just make music as beautiful and organic as he can , and he succeeds in that .
His masterpiece is his Harp Concerto which is on Chandos and Naxos .
I have a tendency to get freaky over composers I like but right now I’d put
on a level with Sibelius .
I would really appreciate wiser people correcting me .
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newbee Owe you a thanks for the Stanford recco you made above. My set came in last week and have been listening for a couple of days. Stanford is very strong in compositional technique and if you can accept his tendency to borrow and use popular Irish tunes his compositional skill makes all sound major league -- no second rate tendencies at all. Enjoy the 6th Rhapsody (solo violin) and the piano concerto. The latter does owe rather a lot to Rachnaninoff.
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Beat you to it twoleftears. I just listened to my Maazel/Askenazy version on Decca's CD. It too has been on the shelf too long I think. It is an excellent performance and in good sound too. I do not have Pontien's so I cannot comment on the differences but I do find the disc mates on Ashkenazy's CD preferable. I have a Hyperion CD with Scriabin's PC combined with Tchaikovsky's PC. Played by Nikolai Demidenko and the BBC SO. I give it a listen out of curiosity. |
I have the Ashkenazy/Maazel recording on London, but haven't listened to it in ages. Pulled out and up for listening soon. |
And the "Dives" award goes to...
Scriabin: Piano Concerto in f-sharp minor, II: Andante. It will keep you coming back for more.
The outer movements are also superb and the end to the concerto is notable.
Am listening to the BIS release, Stockholm Phil/Segerstam with pianist Roland Pontinen; perfectly good recording but understand the Ashkenazy is the standard.
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Sir Adrian Boult Concert Favorites. Chesky 180 gram. CR53
Reference Disc |
And the Reiner is still available in CD and SACD format on Amazon -- appears to be an iconic recording. |
The Reiner Chicago Ein Heldenleben is not exactly chopped liver. In fact it was the first stereo RCA Living Stereo recording, 1954.
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Years ago sat through several performances of "Heldenleben" with the Saint Louis Symphony that were deadly dull. Then, after hearing the Karajan 1973 recording with the BPO, decided this was a work difficult to make work for the listener -- and, as you suggest, requires a conductor who is in control. Karajan could do this... |
I’ve been away for ten days and unable to contribute anything to this thread, but now will try to catch up.
Khatia Buniatishvili is indeed an extraordinary pianist. If you want to hear how incredible she is, listen to her take on Mussorgsky’s “Pictures at an Exhibition.”
totally original concept, with Horowitzian technique. On the same CD is a sizzling Ravel’s “La Valse.”
On the subject of the most most difficult piece to perform, several decades ago, I bought tickets to hear Strauss’ “Ein Heldenleben” conducted by Klaus Tennstedt.
when I showed up at Carnegie, there was an insert saying he was ill and was being replaced by James DePreist. I was bummed out because I had bought these tickets months in advance to hear Tennstedt.
But I was bummed out even more after I heard I believe it was The Philadelphia Orchestra totally butcher the piece into unrecognition. The only conclusion I can draw, is that the piece must be a bear to play, and that DePreist couldn’t bring it together with limited rehearsal. |
Concordia Viols, "Crye" (English Viol Music), on Metronome CD. Wonderful music and wonderful recording. |
Time to get this thread moving again. Have thought of several challenges for you astute pundits. The first is the answer to the question "what is the most difficult orchestral work?" The rules require that it be played more or less regularly and that it be instrumental only (no solo concertos either -- we'll make that another category). Sorry, Mahler 8th lovers... So I'll start off the sweepstakes with two examples: Bartok's Concerto for Orchestra and Strauss's An Alpine Symphony. The first has intricate contrapuntal textures and associated rhythmic complexity -- and each orchestral section is treated like a concerto instrument, thus the name. The Strauss has tremendous bombast along with its technical demands as well as Herculean length and orchestral size. Neither of these opuses is comfortable for the average orchestra. But you folks can come up with better examples, so I leave it to you to tell me the most difficult orchestral composition. And if you have an orchestra and conductor that tamed the beast, so much the better. |
IMO, and many others as well, the GREAT Swiss oboist , Heinz Holliger, was the greatest instrumentalist of our time . He played with every good symphony of the world and was the most sought after player in the world .
Also taught music, not just oboe. at a top German conservatory for many years and was/is a composer .
Those who have heard him know what I mean when I say it is hard to believe anyone could play anything that well but for those who haven’t a top choice to hear music played as well as it can be played is.
Telemann/ Concerti per oboe/ Academy of St. Martin-in-the Fields under Iona Brown . Phillips 412 879-2 .
It was recorded in 1981 when he was at his pinnacle and has that warm Phillips sound .
Still alive and active at 79 !
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A couple of off the beaten path 'Symphonies' that I just listened to (but not for the first time!) that I really enjoy when I just want to hear big, bombastic stuff, sort of like many Strauss tone poems, not so much like a more formal symphony. Franz Liszt's "Dante Symphony" by Leon Botstein and the LSO on Telarc, and "A Faust Symphony" by Ivam Fisher and the Budapest Festival Orchestra on Phillips. I really enjoy both but I'm partial the the Faust because of the inclusion of the third movement (choral) which includes the voice of Hans Peter Blochwitz. On the cheap you can get a Bernstein and the BSO performance at Tanglewood on the DG label. Pretty good too! |
Don't have that CD but think the approach will work and will tell you a good deal about the timbral accuracy of the audio system. Check this out with my systems regularly for piano CDs as well as the tapes made in my studio on a German Grand. It is VERY difficult to capture completely the timbre of an instrument you know well. Not even tuned studio equipment will always produce perfect results. The free software app REW can do a lot to check out the accuracy of your system but it requires measurement mics and a quality converter. Have two CD cases recently where the timbre of the instrument has been caught extremely well: 1. the 9' Steinway Ashkenazy uses in his Rachmaninoff Concertos (Decca) and 2. the Geissenhof violin Kurosaki uses in his Beethoven violin sonatas (Accent). For me, the first is a plus, the second a minus. The extreme clarity of the Geissenhof is sabatoged by the dry style Kurosaki prefers. My experience has been that violins in particular differ more than many acoustical instruments in their overall timbral quality and often it is worthwhile to check multiple offerings though online 30 second samples to find an instrument you can appreciate. Recently did this with the Franck violin sonata and settled on Perlman's violin and performance. |
Does anyone have the Oliveira CD of him playing different Stradivarius and Guarneri violins? Instead of using one's system to hear the more or less subtle differences in the sonorities, I was wondering if one could take those differences for granted, and instead use the CD for testing the resolving power of different systems. |
TwoLeftEars Think you're right: the texture and crescendo sound very derivative. Have often thought that Mahler was in the same mood when he composed the slow movements for symphonies 4 and 5. Still go back to the Bernstein recodings for Mahler and Bizet...and think that the flutist in the Carmen Intermezzo should have been given an award. |
I've read articles that listed dozens of stuff lifted from Buxtehude by Bach . Not unusual .
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At the risk of going slightly OT, seems like this is best directed at readers of this thread. Has it occurred to anyone else that Mahler must have heard the Adagietto from Bizet's L'Arlesienne Suite no. 1 before he composed his own, utterly sublime, Adagietto in Symphony 5? The more I listed to the Bizet, the more I hear echoes... |
From the used bin...
Wilhelm Stenhammer: Serenade, Op 31 by Gothenburg Symphony Orchestra and Neeme Jarvi.
Sweden's #1 classical opus written by its #2 ranked composer (Berwald gets the top spot) and played by the orchestra Stenhammer helped establish in 1905 and that still plays and records his work -- sort of an extended "thank you."
The Canzonetta get the "Dives" award for repeated listening appeal.
Stream it on Tidal, order it from Amazon, or get lucky as I did and find it in a used bin. |
Thanks for the links jkittlesen, never heard of Khatia before , the "Standchen" was lovely .
Wish I knew how to link and those who do would do more of it .
My old brain just revolts when I try. to.
I'll order that LSO Hickox craig56, Hickox is always good .
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Alwyn: Complete Symphonies by LSO/Hickox. Have now been able to thoroughly preview this 3 CD set and it is a solid 5 stars (or, perhaps we should say 2 "LeftEars"). The bookend pieces of the set leave you breathless -- the first symphony (written in 1950) and the Sinfonietta for strings (in 1969). Perhaps because of his film score background, Alwyn is listenable while still being innovative. Check out his characteristic melodic style in the first movement of the Sinfonietta. The 4th movement of the 1st shows off his sophisticated contrapuntal abilities. The 3rd movement of the same has a beautiful melody reminiscent of Elgar who might be considered Alwyn's rightful mentor. Grab the LSO Hickox set while it's still available. Reviewers keep talking about how important this composer is but he seems always relegated to a minor status. If you get just one of the symphonies, go for the first. |
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Rachmaninoff: Piano Concerto No. 2 in C Minor, Op. 18 & Piano Concerto No. 3 in D Minor, Op. 30
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Well, Artur Rubinstein said the adagio was the greatest piece ever written
and he wanted it played at his funeral . good enough for me .
I can’t even comment on the Quintet, 2 years ago I heard it played live by players of the St Paul CO , world class all , at the end the gent next to me
said to me that the adagio was written by God for a dying man he loved .
Goodman retired last year at age 65, said he was coming back at 70 after he rested up !
To me he’s a wild man who has everything under control , I love him .
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Schubert: Must check out your Schubert/Goodman recordings. Have a number of the symphonies with Weil/Sony that are good but just a touch sterile. Surprise, but the older Karajan Schubert recordings are powerful and fun -- he had a real feel for the language. BTW, not to offend you, but assume you are a big fan of the Schubert Quintet. Have grown accustomed to the Smithsonian recording played on all Strads. Oddly, took a little while to become accustomed to the timbre but now cannot listen to anything else. That second movement goes with you to the grave, right? |
