Dave and Randy, all is not logical; I've had tube base traps in the front corners since day 1 to stop bass "rattle" or resonance, and it worked. I just placed both tubes in the right hand corner, and the center image moved to the left, which is what I want.
That tells me this is going to require a lot of experimentation, which will require a number of pieces. I've only got 2 ft of wall to work with on the left side of the room, the rest is glass door and drapes.
Maybe a diffuser next to the tube trap on the left side will work; it's for sure we're making progress, but I can see it will seem quite "illogical" at times.
Ain't this a lot of fun.
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Hi o,
If moving your tubes moved the image, then they are effecting much more than low bass frequencies since these are non-directional and the bass nodes are larger than the width of your room.
Diffusion is primarily to improve imaging by scattering and diffusing wall reflections such as to dissipate them. Absorption is actually removing sound pressure and signal level at certain frequencies. So, if your room is tonally correct as set up, then adding diffusion on the wall will reduce early reflections and improve image specificity (remove the boundaries). If not, then absorption (applied correctly) will improve the spectral balance of your room.
Every audio system inside a normal size room has numerous reflection points along the walls and the ones that occur at the first reflection point, midway along the wall between your speakers’ baffles and your listening position, are the most detrimental to imaging specificity, so something should be done to reduce/eliminate them. Ignoring bass for a moment, if the sound is too bright, then absorption at the first reflection point (midpoint along the wall between the speaker baffle and your listening position) will help to correct that. If you feel that it is just right, then avoid absorption and go with diffusion at the first reflection point, lest you suck the life out of your sound.
My thinking, right or otherwise, is to address spectral balance first (absorption). I suggest you begin determining what your room is doing acoustically regarding the spectral (frequency) range. Do you have a test CD with different test tone frequencies and a RatShack analog sound pressure meter?
Best to you o,
Dave
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Mesch, you're going in the right direction; if you say you hear Class "B", I don't doubt it. That's a class that is attainable with dedication and hard work, plus numerous tweaks.
Room treatment is an area I haven't investigated, consequently, I'm still learning about it; that means we'll all progress together.
Enjoy the music.
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Thanks for the kind words Dave and orpheus. When one has the latitude, playing with one's room is the best and least expensive way to tune a system to one's liking. Realizing that we are tuning to an average of what we are presented from the recording engineers. |
Dave, according to what you are saying, I should apply more absorption to the right side of the room, in order to move the image to the left? Is that correct?
I think I have a CD with test tone frequencies, but I don't have a RatShack analog sound pressure meter. I use Parts Express for odds and ends, might they have one? Make a list of the necessary meters for this job, and I can place an order.
Thanks for the help.
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Sometime before getting into the high end, I visited a friend who had a rig with an equalizer. I didn't even know what an equalizer was or did at that time; but I knew it sure looked impressive. This thing had 20 slider switches, and lights blinking for left and right channels; it looked so impressive that I wanted one for that reason alone. "Look at my new equalizer"!.
"What does it do"? Just look at it; with all those multicolored lights blinking, isn't that enough?
With an EQ you could shape the music however it suited you; this gave you the power of being the band leader.
My "Phase Linear 4000" had turnover tone controls, dynamic range expander, plus noise reduction; it was really hot stuff (junk under the hood) Now of course I have a pre without any tone controls because I want to hear the music on the record, not recreate it; which gets us to my present speakers.
Most people have had at least a half dozen or more pairs of speakers since I finally perfected the ones I got; that's why I want some "different" speakers. But after carefully listening to my "none" speakers, I thought about the equalizer, and the "turnover" tone controls; that brought me back to where I first got into the high end with no tone controls.
The purpose of this thing is to hear the "artist's music", not mine; and the speakers I have perform that function like no others I've heard.
What I need, is friends with equalizers, and turnover tone controls so I can come back to my rig, and say "Home sweet home".
Enjoy the music.
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I've got all the necessary materials for the panels, now it's time to go to work. Will give everyone a holler when I'm finished.
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Hi o, Testing SPL in your room at different frequencies will give you an idea of where in the frequency spectrum your room is accentuating sound pressure levels (SPL) and where it is attenuating them, so that you can: 1) know which frequencies to target for attenuation 2) see the effects of placing absorption panels at different locations. As much as it pains me to link this site, this is a good tutorial on measuring your room: http://realtraps.com/art_spl.htmAll you need is media that generates different known frequencies through your speakers, a radio shack analog (one with a needle meter) sound pressure meter, and a lot of time. http://www.ebay.com/itm/REALISTIC-SOUND-LEVEL-METER-33-2050-RADIO-SHACK-/201727489735?hash=item2ef7e...The Stereophile Test CD is a good one, but only available through them, so may take too long to procure. I found this download if you are computer savvy and have a way for your pc to play through your system: http://decibelcar.com/apps/199-download-test-tones-a-frequency-sweeps-mp3-cd-format.htmlOnce you develop a plot like in the link for each speaker, then you will know where to begin experimenting with your absorption panels and have a way to measure the results vs pure trial and error. Best to you o, Dave |
Passive analog eq’s will destroy the phase coherence of your sound because of the way they work. I actually use one in my vintage R&R system to great advantage where imaging, soundstaging, phase and time coherence, and accurate tonal reproduction are of very little to no concern, but funking (yes that is an "n") up the sound to provide the overly-ripe bass, depressed mids, and tizzy treble of the era are the order of the day.
As someone (randy?) already pointed out, smart digital eq’s that accurately measure and adjust hundreds of frequency parameters using computer algorithms may be the order of the day for mid-to-low bass correction without the phase shift IF you only use digital sources. A good friend of mine with a $250k+ system uses this capability of his JL Fathom subs and swears by it. No turntable.
Still need to measure the room for 1k and up frequencies to identify and treat hot spots with absorption and then perhaps diffusion to improve imaging and soundstaging.
Dave
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If ever there was a store I missed, it was Radio Shack. I loved those stores, and I can thank them for so many completed projects. Any time I was in a mall, I had to drop in Radio Shack and browse.
After some experimenting with the absorption that I already have, I discovered I may not need too much diffusion. Since all the problems seem to be on one side of the room, they should be easy to correct.
Thanks for all the helpful information; it's going to take a few days before completion of projects. I'll post notes on progress.
Enjoy the music.
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Hi o,
RS still has stores in the Houston area, although it is difficult to find anything useful there due to the swell of phone products taking over the stores and the employees are largely worse than useless, though tenacious in arm twisting customers to sign up for cell phone plans.
"easy to correct"...using the original intent of this thread as an analogy, would replacing or adding electrical parts indiscriminately be an advisable path for improving the sonic accuracy of a component vs measuring their effect on the electrical performance of the subject component? Acoustical design is science just like electrical design.
Dave |
Dave, you're absolutely correct; in order to achieve Class "A" results, this must be treated the same as any other audio science.
Parts Express has a complete system for $300. which includes a tripod with measuring mic, and other stuff for audio measurements. After I do the guesswork thing, I'll fine tune the room accurately with measurement microphone.
Right now I'm comparing prices on acoustic cloth; apparently black is going to be the color, it's the cheapest.
Moving right along.
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Best wishes for success to you, o.
Dave |
Orpheus 10-
what gear, including cabling, is in your system?
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Jafant, Audible Illusions Pre, and PrimaLuna Mono blocks amp; I made my own interconnect from wire that is no longer available. Speaker cable is Siltech for midrange speaker, silver and copper for tweeter, and a large wire of fine stranded copper for the woofer; each driver has it's own crossover, that allows me to run separate wire to each driver.
I just stumbled across a piece of wire for the woofer; "Stinger pro series pure oxygen free copper 12AWG"; it sounds impressive, (the name).
When you add it all up, the PrimaLuna amp provides a little warmth, but it's primarily neutral, allowing the music to come through without coloration.
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Dave, the stain and finish for the table is drying, and I'll start on the room treatment absorbers tomorrow. Just by experimenting with what I already have, I can see the image move from right to left.
This high ceiling with large beams running across, might eliminate the need for diffusers. I thought I could get cloth locally but that store is out of business, so I ordered some just a few minutes ago.
I can thank your suggestions for the success I'm expecting.
Enjoy the music.
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Sounds good, o. Don't breath the fiberglass!
The fluted wooden drapery poles from BB&B should be here any day, so I will then get started on the DIY diffusers and let you and Randy know how it goes.
Best to you o,
Dave
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YO guys! I'm installing a cartridge; I would rather get bit in the but by a snaggletooth gorilla than install a cartridge; try turning a curve into a straight line, it ain't easy.
After experimenting with the minute amount of room treatment I got, I can see the results are going to be fantastic when I get the rest of the stuff by mail.
My table for the turntable came out good, now I'm bitchin about the cartridge installation;if you're not already in stay out, big men don't have tiny elf fingers, which is what I need about now.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, installing a cartridge is always an adventure; little tiny wires, and big fat clumsy fingers, handling something as fragile as a toothpick, and costing 1K; any slip can break that flimsier than a toothpick cantilever; that's when I'm sweating in the Winter time.
This is tech talk, if anyone wants to inquire about cartridge installation I will engage them, but I'm not a good salesman for analog because it's too expensive, plus there is only a little wiggle room for saving money, and cartridge is not a place you can find it.
As far as bang for the buck, I never expected room treatment would take a person so far. By applying absorption in different places around the room, I'm able to visualize partially what it will be like when I make it permanent.
Since this will be overall sound, that means a big boost on the audio rating scale. I'll try to compare this with the dollars and cents increase in components, to have an equal increase in total sound improvement.
It can take several upgrades in components, meaning number of components, to get a substantial increase in total sound improvement. This will be an interesting comparison; especially if we are considering "room treatment" as one component.
Enjoy the music.
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Hi o,
The wood body Grados came with a very nice stylus guard that stays in place until deliberately removed. If lost, careful application of light cardboard or paper strip bent into a "U" affixed with tape to the sides of the cartridge will work. A good pair of non-magnetic sharp-point precision tweezers to attach the signal wires is mandatory. When it comes time to set alignment, VTF, VTA, azimuth, etc. sans stylus guard, find your mental calm place and avoid caffeine, nicotine, etc. and disruptions from others. If you get aggravated, stop and return to it later.
Careful not to overtighten the threaded mounting screws if it is a wood body. Big headaches will result!
Best of luck o,
Dave |
That was some very good advice Dave, and I will heed it; I might add to that, keep the tone arm locked down when not in use.
I used a Shure tracking force gauge, which might be accurate, but it's awfully clumsy, so I ordered a digital tracking force gauge. While I never had any problems in all these many years I've had that gauge, it seems my hands aren't as sure as they once were, and to be fumbling with something that's going to be so close to the cantilever is not a good idea.
In this hobby, everything must be evaluated, including age; my hands will have to be twice as study, if I'm to do that modification I talked about.
This new cartridge is absolutely fantastic, I don't see why you sold yours; maybe they made improvements since then, or I haven't reached the stage where you are. Or did the yen for a low output MC take over.
I got a long story to tell if you've got the time to listen:
I sold my "Audiolab" pre, and the guy called back and said there was nothing wrong with it, but he just didn't like it. So I said OK, send it back like you got it, and I'll return your money. That was the best thing that ever happened.
Now I use the MM phono on the Audiolab; it's absolutely perfect for me, and it's also perfect for a lot of other people who rave about it in the UK. It does absolutely "nothing"; no noise, inky black silence, and it doesn't change the sound of the Grado, one iota. Most people talk about what their phono stage does, and I rave about mine doing absolutely nothing, but amplify the signal like it's not even there.
Everything completes my philosophy of; "Nothing but the music."
I'll get back with you, probably before I complete the room treatment; I'm still waiting on the acoustic fabric, until then;
Enjoy the music.
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o,
The digital gauge is much better and less likely to damage your stylus than the see-saw gauge. Make sure that the one you bought is non-magnetic.
My Grado "The Reference" was the low-output version but I never cottoned to its sound in my system. There are thousands of audiophiles that love Grados. If you like the sound, that's all that matters.
I went to a HOMC Van den Hul MC Two (great cart if your phono section has limited gain) and then to the Transfiguration Orpheus L. The better MCs have the sound that I crave in my hi-end system, yet I have several vintage MMs and Electrets that I love in my vintage system.
I look forward to reading of your experiences with the acoustical treatment and will be glad to help in any way I can.
Best to you o,
Dave |
Hello Dave, I've got all the material including the cloth, but now I have a bad case of the winter lazies; my get up and go, done got up and went.
Believe it or not, I bought this 2 inch thick, 4X8 corning insulation leaning up against the wall in the listening room, and I've got a fantastic sound stage, it seems to affect a broad range of frequencies, but not so much the base; which is just what I want.
Thanks again for the ideas.
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Very glad to hear that you are pleased. Just one thing, at least drape some sheets over the fiberglass. You don't want to be breathing those fibers my friend.
Best to you o,
Dave
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For anyone looking to try some diffusors, here is a link to a design I did, using as similar process as by the Arqen site (who I got the technique from). The difference is that I optimized based on using as-bought dimensions of inexpensive board available at big box hardware stores in the USA, so there is almost no cutting needed to build (what little cutting is needed, you can usually get done by the store easily). Quite easy to build, looks pretty decent, and performs very well http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/construction-tips/269366-making-easy-diy-depot-sound-diffuser-panels-step-step.html |
Very cool bwaslo. Thanks.
Best to you,
Dave
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Dave, the "sound stage" is really taking shape in my room; for the first time, it's spread across the front of the room like it's supposed to be; not favoring the left or right side.
Bwaslo, I've got a really ugly temporary absorption panel in the back of the room, and that would be a good place to try your diffusor. Thanks for the idea.
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When I had listened to Class A Stereophile stuff, many times I was disappointed. The qualities that I like may not be the same as what a reviewer might like. Might have been the ancillary equipment...cables, room, etc... who knows. ....and too what will it sound like in MY listening room? Its all very illusive. I have even really liked what a new cable, or preamp brought to MY system, only to realize some hidden warts after listening for a couple of days. After all these years I still haven't found the way to win...only steps (forward and back) toward that Gratus Ad Parnassum.
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Stringeen, I only listened to Class "A" in emporiums that had room treatment up the "Ying Yang", and I was never disappointed. However I have listened to Class "A" rigs in homes that did not deliver Class "A" sound, I attributed that to the inexperience of the audiophile.
I recall a complete top of the line ARC electronics setup, with Theil speakers that was riveting, sounds that I hadn't been aware of, were emanating from "Santana Abraxas", my favorite album for 20 years, and they were clear and quite audible, plus they were coming from a stationary point in space; this was all in a high end emporium.
I was pressed for time when I visited an audiophile with a Class "A" rig, and couldn't help discover why he wasn't getting Class "A" sound, and I noticed a patchwork quilt choice of interconnects. I am a firm believer in uniformity of interconnects, that's because I see so many different philosophies in regard to the best. So many different, competing ideas, can not come out right.
I make all my own interconnects out of the same wire, except where something special is required, like Phono for example. I realize rolling your own is not for everyone, but they can still achieve "uniformity".
The places I went to had CJ and ARC, so you could arrange these two polar opposites however you chose, that guaranteed you getting the sound you wanted. Those places no longer exist in my neck of the woods.
I know exactly what you mean by "your room"; well I've got good news for you String, I just made a "giant step" without changing one component, and I still can't quite believe it.
Although I've been listening all morning, I still can't quite believe it; my room is filled up with beautiful sound, and I thought I was going to have to get some new big speakers to achieve this. Follow this part of the thread on "room treatment" and be amazed at the result.
Best of luck.
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Dave, if this much sounds that good, what will a little more sound like? I got the answer to that question just a few minutes ago; "Horrible"! This treatment will let you know in a hurry when you have done something wrong, and the good thing is, it doesn't cost much.
After adding too much absorption in the corners, everything sounded horrible, that means I've got enough absorption for sure; now to work on the diffusors.
Thanks again for the brilliant ideas.
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I had the same experience, o. I have several panels and two bass traps in the attic as a result. So much for Ethan Winer's "cover the entire room" philosophy.
I am truly happy to read that you have achieved your desired results. Enjoy your "new" system.
Best to you o,
Dave |
Dave, I always like to mention everything anyone does to improve my enjoyment of this hobby in any way, and what suggestion of theirs that I heeded, which made my life easier.
"The digital gauge is much better and less likely to damage your stylus than the see-saw gauge. Make sure that the one you bought is non-magnetic."
It must have been a very long time ago when I bought that " teeter totter" as you called it instrument for measuring stylus tracking force, because I don't remember having any problem at all with it; but now, it's just too shaky for these fumble fingers.
I bought a "Riverstone Audio" digital pressure gauge that was perfect, and so much easier. I checked the VTF with this gauge, and discovered it was too heavy; after re-calibrating the force to a lighter one, I could hear my cartridge thank me, and I thank you for the suggestion.
Enjoy the music.
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I am happy that things are going well for you my friend.
Merry Christmas,
Dave |
Yes, when it comes to room treatments it seems that one must overtreat to know where one has to 'dial back' to for best results. |
I had no idea room treatment was so important before now. Let me explain; I had a room imbalance, my right channel seemed to be louder than the left.
The first thing I did was increase the volume in the left channel, but something was still wrong. Check Pre; it's OK. Check amp; it's OK. Check speakers; they're OK. I don't know what else to check?
Now I know you know how much of a headache it was to check all of that in each one of those components.
Not until I took the steps outlined in this thread did I get a "balanced" sound-stage, plus a number of other problems solved that were always on the "back-burner".
If you haven't gotten involved in room treatment, I suggest you go through the part of this thread involving room treatment and be surprised.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, I hope you're still out there somewhere. Here is the most ironic thing about this thread; I opened it talking about modifications, and although I have everything to do the "mod", I haven't started yet; I'm still working on room treatment, that's what I want to ask you about.
Everything sounds good, but I need a good "diffusor" on the left side of the room, and I was wondering which one you think is best?
Thank you.
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Thanks a bunch for your help Dave; I'll talk to them Monday.
Enjoy the music.
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Dave, I don't know what I would do without your help, I am in completely foreign territory. Now, each record is different; some are perfect, and some not so perfect; this is before I've added any diffusion. Today, a phono amp is coming, so I will evaluate after I've tried it.
Thank you much, and don't forget to;
Enjoy the music.
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you know if someone got foam diffusers, and wrapped them up real purty with acoustical cloth, then put some LEDs in the rear...
you'd have a nice floor standing lamp for the home decorators who don't like you messing with their living room |
