DONT touch the black thing to red thing without turning off your system or politely asking your g/f to take her head out of the horn on your avanguardes. |
Sorry for this late posting but I went away on vacation and forgot about it. Leafs is still right. Bi-wiring while definitely making a speaker sound different is NOT as good as a single wire. The fallacy here, (any first year EE student could spot) is that there is a SINGLE connection at the amp. If the amp had two discrete outputs, bi-wiring would work, otherwise it's detrimental. By the way BS is a $1200 record weight that StereoShill reccomends or any other item that costs absurd amounts of money compared to it's cost |
DH Labs has two cables that can be internally bi-wired: (A) the (14 gauge) T-14 (B) the (10-gauge) Q-10. Each has four wires separately insulated within the cable that can be used to complete the circuit on either one or two sets of binding posts. I bought mine from Jeff at Value Audio on this website. I feel comfortable recommending him. Neither are Radio Shack cheap, although both are at the 'bargain' end of high quality cabling. |
I have found bi-wiring makes an audible improvement with some speakers, and not others. B&W Matrix series, and Aerials, in my experience, sound noticeably more detailed and open sounding when bi-wired, especially the Aerials. I have a pair of Paradigm 60v2s in a second system and have found that bi-wiring the Paradigms provides no audible improvement even though there are provisions for bi-wiring and the manual recommends bi-wiring. Experiment with cheap wire before committing to an expensive bi-wire run. There is also the debate whether you should invest in one run of quality cable instead of two runs of a lesser quality cable for bi-wiring. |
Maybe i can clear this up for the uninformed or confussed. When speaking of bi-wire, the bi stands for two, meaning two seperate set of cable or double run or external bi-wire. Thus for a speaker that was designed for bi-amp can be bi-wired using two seperate pr of speaker cable or two seperate runs terminated by one connector at the amp end or two seperate runs terminated to one amp post. This is a true bi-wire and has advantages and disadvantages as in a bi-amp or tri-amp setup with the advantages outweighing the disadvantages. A cable that is singe bi-wire is not a true bi-wire and correct has little or no advantage or just a glorified jumper. So when you inquire about bi-wire i beleive you mean a true bi-wire as the posters question implies. If you need a technical explaination do a research on bi-amping and bi-wiring, try the site Visions in Audio. I use two seperate pr for bi-wiring. Its all in the speaker design, not all speakers that have dual post per polarity are truly bi-wirerable and benefit. I realize that most at this site know this and can explain it better than i. Anyone want to take the time to explain this better and inform the uninformed and help many. Happy Holidays |
Leafs you cant read as usual.Read what I wrote and dont twist things around.One will get better performance from a real good speaker in bi-wire than a mid-fi one.In other words a better resolving speaker.Is that clear enough.If you are looking to be a jerk again go for it dude! "David99,your off base as usual" Sounds like you are trying to stir things up here,huh? |
Blues_man; you state above "70% or more of high end is BS". You would be doing me,other Audiogon members, and audiophiles world-wide, a great service if you would post the (presumably) 30% of high-end audio that is valid;(ie, not BS)-- by product/brand name would be great. We could save tremendous amounts of money and would be forever grateful to you, not to mention richer. Thanks in advance. BTW, I'm really into the blues too; Buddy Guy, JJ Cale, and recently, Dave Hole are some favorites. Leafs; could you please post the names of the "mass market high-end speakers" you mention in your above post; by brand name would be great. Your information, along with Blues_man's, could go a long way toward clearing up much of the confusion that exists in this hobby, and would also be a boon to audio enthusiasts world-wide. Again, thanks in advance. Just as a vote for bi-wiring, Richard Vandersteen recommendes bi-wiring for his 2Ces and 3A speakers, and they are specifically designed for it. I have the 3Asigs., bi-wired, of course. Others, such as Thiel are not designed for bi-wiring, and do not have bi-wire connections. Craig. |
Snook gives great advice, audition double runs of cable from cable company, and do direct comparison of single wire and bi-wire. Most high end speakers are designed for bi-wire with special crossover design for biwiring, some are not and use more complex internal crossover designs for single wire. I wonder if those who ridicule bi-wiring have even tried it, or just repeat everything Martin DeWolf says.... BTW I tried both ways and prefer bi-wire set-up, but each person has to make thier own assessment. |
Does the bi-wiring sound significantly better or just different. I have heard no positive difference but that is with Dunlavy and Paradigm speakers. Dunlavy does not believe in bi-wiring to make better sound. The best thing to do is rent a bunch of cables from the cable co. and see what happens |
Leafs...you prove my point for me...Siting single instances and specific products as the final word doesn't help this thread. Making sweeping generalizations like, "there is no benefit to biwire" is ignorant in the truest sense of the word. You didn't even ask if Heyhorse was running one of the speakers you claim are superior without biwiring. If there was no benefit why would so many top of the line speakers offer it as an option? It's a conspiracy with the cable manufacturers, right? I'm sure some speakers do sound better with only one run of wire, but don't tell me how my, or any other speakers sound with or without biwiring. You must remember that this hobby is subjective, otherwise we would just buy the speakers with the greatest sensitivity and the amp with the lowest THD and let electronic sensors tell us how it "should" sound. |
David99 you off base as usuall.The better the speakers the less lickly your going to find Bi wire.Check with MFG of real high end speakers.Dont bother with MFG of Mass market high end speakers. |
WAMATAU,If you have proof state it.Read Bound for sound and If you look some of the finest speakers made dont offer Biwire option.Martin De Woulf who is very respected in the Audio Media writes about the merits of single over bi wire.My speakers sound so much better.Better bass more detail better soundstage. |
For very little money you can assemble a discreet bi-wire cable out of cat-5 cable available from Home Depot. Teflon insulated cat-5 is better, but the PVC insulated cable at Home Depot is good for less critical applications, and sounds better than stranded lamp cord style speaker wire. Even the stuff sold by Monster Cable and other companies. Cat-5 consists of 4 twisted pairs of wire. Each pair consists of a solid color insulated wire and a white color coded wire. The trick is to terminate the solid colors together and the non-solid colors together to form your plus/minus terminations. At the amplifier end join the plus terminations together and the minus terminations together from each cable. As Dan2112 mentions above there are forums on DIY cables that elaborate in much more detail and have designs that can compete with cables costing up to 1000$ a pair. |
John D also states that there is no difference in speaker cables, BS. My speaker are Aerial 10t and beleive me that there is a noticable difference in sound bi-wire and single wire. Even in the manuel it states that the 10t IS BI-AMPABLE and BI-WIREABLE. Like i said before its all in the speaker design. |
Leafs is right. Analyze the circuit. Bi-wiring only adds to the length of the signal path which makes it worse. If you don't know how to analyze the circuit, try this. Ideally the best length for speaker cable is zero. If it were zero, where would the connection be? Since I believe that 70% or more of high end is BS you really have to know your stuff. Send an email to John Dunlavy of Dunlavy Audio. He's one of the leading authorities in the world. |
I believe one needs a real good speaker also to hear an improvement with bi-wiring.(IMO) Maybe thats why some dont hear the improvement and state "It doesnt work" Well maybe it doesnt on their speakers.HeyHorse,If you want a real good bi-wire set up REAL cheap check out The Tara Space+Time Phase 2 I have for sale here.List $340, steal @ $95 or BO |
Leafs, you are totally wrong. Depends on the speaker design. Ck w/manufacture. |
Leafs you could not be more wrong |
Dont bother.Just make the speaker into a single wire.There is no benifit to bi wire other than to the bottom line of the wire mfg. |
PS: Also forgot to mention that the Audio Advisor has MIT T2 internal bi-wire cables on closeout at half off. An 8ft pair is around $200.00. Some people love them and some people hate them and I have never tried them. Maybe others know of other inexpensive internal bi-wire cables? They would be a lot less clunky than having four seperate runs. |
Heyhorse: I use Kimber 4VS in my system and have used it in bi-wire and bi-amp setups as well. It is a big improvement over the 4PR and does not cost much more (retail is $3.00 a ft). I have an extra 18ft plus unterminated pair (that would allow you 9 ft. runs) that I can place an advertisement for (so that Audiogon gets their $2.00). Email me if you are interested, I will sell them for $60.00 which would include priority shipping and insurance. They would need to be broken in again as they have been coiled and stored for over a month. If you can spend more money I would go with Analysis Plus 12 cable which I did not do because of the length of my runs, you should be able to buy it in bulk or better yet find it used. I also wanted to try the Mapleshade single Helix cable that is very inexpensive but have found that it is better in shorter runs than mine. |
There are two auctions on Ebay right now for Kimber cable. One is the 4PR, which is a single run of 22.5ft and the other is a 10ft pair of 8TC. You could split the 4PR into a 10ft pair for the HF and use the 8TC for the LF, re-terminate. Go to Ebay and search under "kimber". There are always bulk auctions going on. Some are good values. |
I think the cheapest way is to get 4 cables(2 per side) and ensure that your connections at your amp can accomodate both terminations. Will there be enough room to place 2 spades at each terminal, say on top of each other? If not, then does your amp have 5 way binding posts? If so, then you can use spades and bananas, one cable having spades and the other having bananas. My bi-wires were terminated by the factory and had both wires joined into 1 pair of terminations for connection to the amp but they have 2 pairs at the speaker end. There are many posters here who believe that you should use a better than average single wire vs bi-wiring using an average cable. As it is system dependant, only you will know in the end. Good luck and report back on your findings. |
Go to audioasylum.com and do a search for DIY Speaker cable and go from there. You might also want to check out TNT-Audio web site DIY section at http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/tweaks.html Have fun and good luck - Dan. |
